It's very tame for an insult though and very uninventive.
however I didn't write it's as an insult but an adjective, context matters.
Women Self Defence!
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however I didn't write it's as an insult but an adjective, context matters.
D
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I have the same complaint for Judo and other grappling though. They need to include and work around striking, and lets be fair if you have never been sickned before it can be as demorasing as being thrown. God help you if they can box AND grapple. Wait, why am i endorsing Judo, i thought i was meant to be a sambo bug.
Steve
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An actual study was mentioned earlier, and I've referenced it before. If you're interested in reading about a women's self defense program that seems to have been very effective, take a look.
Along with a 2 year follow up:
journals.sagepub.com
And they now have an SARE center that focuses on women's self defense specifically
Some takeaways I see from these various resources.
Along with a 2 year follow up:
SAGE Journals: Your gateway to world-class research journals
Subscription and open access journals from SAGE Publishing, the world's leading independent academic publisher.
journals.sagepub.com
And they now have an SARE center that focuses on women's self defense specifically
Some takeaways I see from these various resources.
- While some Wen Do Women's Self Defence training is included in the program, it's not prioritized. The emphasis of the self defense training is on soft skills such as assessing danger.
- Women who were raped were less likely to blame themselves for the assault.
- The program effectively debunked many rape myths, and also the idea that women often precipitate their own rape.
- The program is relatively short, suggesting that the benefits of a self defense program can be realized without spending a bunch of money buying a protracted self defense program from a self-proclaimed SD expert who has no actual experience.
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I have seen that attitude applied to BJJ (among other things), and it wasnt in refrence or direct refutation to any of your points so it doesnt really matter. Well, partially in refutation in that it was annecdotal for the "nothing works 100%" and "nothing magically works" sort of deal.
That doesnt mean it applies now, or to your BJJ school. Legacy does not mean its current, or is specfically in your sub section of the style. Legacy spaking Judo was more like freestyle wrestling, and im sure some schools do Atemi Waza in sparring or outside of Kata. (just as example that came to my mind)
Holly wood and media myths and tropes adjusting a persons perspective on fighting. It was extreme to show some ludicrouse example that may appear in media, or something like it may and thus adjust someones perspective. When the dwarf would have more (forgot the best word here) odds against them, and probbbiltiy wise it would be nomimally past 0.
It has something to do with females, because there is a vastly stacked trope out there of a siginficantly weaker and smaller person beating somone of greater stature in media, and it usually is done poorly, unrealstically and for a empowerment thing. (and usually a female)
The double part here is "unwinable scenrios exist", you die sometimes. thats just the truth behind it, you are put in a inferior position and a murderer bests you and you die. that would be another trope media has the ex machnia coming to save the day. Granted its next to useless to discuss this, as i said defetism kills, but you at least need to congitively acknowledge and accept the fact there is a overwelming chance you will die in situations where its apt.
Oh, i even forgot that some martial artists can get a ego and over inflate their fighting ability and potetionally start things it might be best to avoid. (before anyone starts, im not replying to claims i have ego, so dont even try, i know at least one of you will try.
)As long as thats all its sold as i am fine with that, dont be the dwarf expecting to fight 2 metre strongmen. Extreme example obviously, but the nuance in that i explained last post, that means accept you are buying for time.
this is literally just prefrence here. I just support the notion of not being in grappling range and a takedown being your death if weapons are involved. Bascially my view is more to expeidently break contact by literally taking themdown and stopping them from pulling you down. Because it opens up the ability to run, or finish off the opponent or if you know suffcient restraints and need to, restrain them for police.
BJJ does have its own rules you know? As far as i know strictness to the rules in most martial arts is absolute, just on a sportsmanships point. It is abhorrent to break the rules in any sport. Judos ground game is at hight tier, for sport Judo i should say. You may run your school how you like but if its primarily for the sport of judo then it will be built for that. (same issue EVERY martial art with a parallel sport has)
If a assualt starts and you are in a inferior position*, you are done. That would be ambush, you dont expect or train to get out of a absolute ambush, you train to see them and to avoid and break them up (your best bet) Its mostly a aggression game. Well i mean you can train for it, and i have seen it happen, but its mostly just application of aggression, its not like training other things if you get my point.
I would question if you identified X as a threat why did you not attempt to create some form of position to defend yourself from. And you better hope your BJJ is as good as you think it is and they arent better at it, or that there is no glass etc on the ground or its freezing cold. (dont know why you would willingly lay down if either was the case, but to each their own)
If you are good at doing throws, the risk of the person grappling you reduces and it going wrong reduces, Judo has a ground game, and i have seen probbly the bulk of throws in at least olympic not result in a sprawl on the ground. Dont know if its a sportsmans choice or just inability though, probbly mixture. but i can say the same about pulling guard, if thats habit they could just know enough to lay on you and have more endurance. If you end up in a Judo sprawl, its ground game is all done at higher levels, the return for that is you knowing takedowns and getting pretty good at doing them and defending against them. (ones allowed in the sport anyway)
Oh my god i just realised this is the grappling equal of the "do you do weapons first or not? and why?" argument. Do you learn takedowns first, or the result of takedowns first.
*Being on your back is the most inferior position you can get, the only thing worse is laying on your stomach. But i dont know many people who do that out of comfort.
Thre is no clear cut when they actually start doing it, but since its not common in sports judo its not of priority. I could probbly say the same about standing grappling for BJJ not being a priorty for some.
this would just come down to individual ability and skill, if you are used to (filthy) guard pullers and expect to fight them you would train diffrently to if you were just training in Judo. It also depends on rules, i think the record here is the same as boxing vs wrestling, it amounts to 50/50 if persons are of comprable ability.
Id imagine BJJ persons would train diffrently if they were specfically going to be fighting Judo people.
See above post, i thought you would know my standing point here and i neglected to menton it, i belive striking should be included irrelivent of the grappling.
Hanzou
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Would you be willing to post examples of this so that we can see exactly what you're talking about here? I'd be very curious to see this phenomenon in action.
It still applies in the Gracie line of BJJ. If you go to a Renzo, Rickson, Rorion, Relson, Gracie-Barra, etc. Bjj school, you will still get that type of training. Renzo's school is more based around MMA while the rest are more self defense based. Additionally, it isn't hard to find BJJ schools of that lineage.
Except you can't compare a woman to a paraplegic dwarf, and you can't compare an assailant to a professional boxer. Those comparisons are ludicrous and pointless, and an absolute straw man. You're talking about a 0% chance situation versus are 15-45% chance situation.
Again, it's like me saying that if I'm a trained swimmer I have a chance of surviving a sinking ship and swimming to shore, and you counter with "Yeah, but what if you're in the middle of a hurricane, the water is filled with sharks, you're bleeding out of your stomach, and your arms are missing?" It's a rather silly way to argue.
The double part here is "unwinable scenrios exist", you die sometimes. thats just the truth behind it, you are put in a inferior position and a murderer bests you and you die. that would be another trope media has the ex machnia coming to save the day. Granted its next to useless to discuss this, as i said defetism kills, but you at least need to congitively acknowledge and accept the fact there is a overwelming chance you will die in situations where its apt.
Oh, i even forgot that some martial artists can get a ego and over inflate their fighting ability and potetionally start things it might be best to avoid. (before anyone starts, im not replying to claims i have ego, so dont even try, i know at least one of you will try.
As long as thats all its sold as i am fine with that, dont be the dwarf expecting to fight 2 metre strongmen. Extreme example obviously, but the nuance in that i explained last post, that means accept you are buying for time.
See above. Also no one said that a woman fighting back in that situation had a guaranteed chance of surviving. We're simply saying that BJJ training gives them an avenue where they have the tools to successfully fight back if they're in that situation since the type of situation that women find themselves in is sort of BJJ's wheelhouse.
Which is fine, but that advantage only comes from a standing position. The point many here discuss is that there are many situations that don't start with both individuals standing and facing off with each other. Further, this stuff happens with someone the woman trusts or is comfortable with and is willing to invite into her personal space. When the assault begins, you're already well past striking range and now you're in grappling range whether you want to be there or not.
Also we must again stress that performing a Judo throw is not an easy task, even for Olympic level Judoka, much less your standard Judo black belt. So while a skilled female Judoka could toss someone to the ground, the five-point throw where the guy lands on his head and is unconscious is as elusive as a one punch knockout. Sure you can do it, and it's possible that you can pull it off, but what if you don't pull it off?
Yeah, this is a false statement. An "ambush" can be anything from being jumped by 4 guys outside a bar, to your boyfriend suddenly attacking you while you were on the couch watching a movie. Going with the latter scenario, BJJ will give the woman the tools to escape from an inferior position in that range. Again, a woman being attacked by a man is not the equivalent of a paraplegic dwarf fighting prime Mike Tyson.
Uh, what if you're in the house? You know assaults happen in homes as well right? Also I thought we were passed the needles on the ground arguments, but I guess we're back at it again.
As for a failed Judo throw versus pulling Guard, I wouldn't compare the two. Again, in one situation you have to scramble to achieve dominance, in the other, you're in a favorable position for sweeps and submissions. Further, if you're a female black belt in Bjj, you have had years of practice fighting from that position against skilled grapplers and fighters, so I would say you have a solid chance of successfully fighting back. Like I said, not to knock Judo, but the lack of extensive Guard practice places it well behind BJJ in the SD department.
Again, see the Guard. If you're on your back in Guard that is far from the most inferior position you can get.
There is standing grappling in BJJ. I have learned Judo throws both from practicing Judo in college and via a Judo instructor who worked in my BJJ gym. I'm not personally a fan of Judo throws because I view them as overly technical, and I much prefer the more intuitive takedowns of classic BJJ or wrestling. Frankly female classmates over the years seem to be the same.
The thing is that BJJ practitioners are more adept at groundfighting, so while the standing grappling is good, it isn't as good as wrestling or Judo. Thus BJJ practitioners aren't going to waste time trying to outwrestle or outJudo those people and instead simply Guard pull them into Guard. Pulling Guard is actually an extremely effective takedown. The fact that Wrestlers and Judoka absolutely despise it simply shows how effective it is. What's "filthy" about that?
The thing is, pulling someone into Guard can occur via the actual takedown, as a counter to a tackle attempt, a failed throw, someone muscling/knocking you to the floor, you waking up to someone on top of you, etc. The point is getting someone into your Guard in order to quickly regain the dominant position, or to choke them or break their limb from that position. A female with a decent rank in BJJ should be able to do exactly that once Guard is achieved.
It's my understanding that most Judo clubs/dojos don't address the ground game as fully as they once did, because the rules have changed. When I was training Judo, submission and ground fighting was still taught as a big part of the curriculum (and I understand that was already reduced from where Judo's ground game had been previously), but I'm told that's not so much the case now.
That's not at all necessarily true. There are things that can be done from an inferior position to protect yourself and regain control, then transition to a stronger position. My slim experience with BJJ has been nearly all about that concept.
drop bear
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An actual study was mentioned earlier, and I've referenced it before. If you're interested in reading about a women's self defense program that seems to have been very effective, take a look.
Along with a 2 year follow up:
SAGE Journals: Your gateway to world-class research journals
Subscription and open access journals from SAGE Publishing, the world's leading independent academic publisher.
And they now have an SARE center that focuses on women's self defense specifically
Some takeaways I see from these various resources.
- While some Wen Do Women's Self Defence training is included in the program, it's not prioritized. The emphasis of the self defense training is on soft skills such as assessing danger.
- Women who were raped were less likely to blame themselves for the assault.
- The program effectively debunked many rape myths, and also the idea that women often precipitate their own rape.
- The program is relatively short, suggesting that the benefits of a self defense program can be realized without spending a bunch of money buying a protracted self defense program from a self-proclaimed SD expert who has no actual experience.
And things like body guards or money handling tend to have the same philosophy.
D
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It is a issue, but its a issue thats present for anything that does sport. Afterall, you are training to compete in Judo sports normally, like you are BJJ sports etc, not to go out and fight in the streets. And Judo as a martial art isnt soley about fighting anyway, its about perfection through Judo*. Your adapting Judo for self defence, you are adapting BJJ for it, you are adapting Boxing etc, and most of the time its field expenident adapting.
School automony seems to be pretty big in most martial arts, so you might as well consider each school its own style in extreme cases. For how much deviation can happen. By god, why have our roles reversed?
*Can be applied to many other martial arts and as far as i know BJJ as well. This is nothing more than my prefrence towards Judo and more throwing based things as opposed to grappling.
As for inferior position, your odds have been reduced greatly. You dont generally do well from one, hnece why its called inferior. You dont tend to loose from a superior position. if you start from ambush, in a inferior position thats just more to go wrong. (if it wasnt ambush you wouldnt willingly stay laying on your back)
drop bear
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It depends who we are discussing. If I let a trained guy on top of me. I would be in trouble. But I can get most untrained guys off me pretty easily.
And this is because there are fights for positional dominance that are not intuitively apparent. Rarely does a new person fight for an underhook. So they give up position without realising.
Here we go. Two guys vs 1. And you can see they are just grabbing at any old thing. They have no idea what is a dominant position and what isn't.
Which is pretty common.
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Shouldnt be considered normal, or something to be planned to do though. its sort of backwards to intetionally disadvantage yourself on some hopeful basis you can get into a better position.
Two thoughts here. Firstly, what Judo does is grappling. You're talking about groundwork or ground-based grappling. Which is part of grappling.
Secondly, upon what is this preference based? What's your level of exposure to Judo's grappling approach vs. BJJ's? How have you tested them to see which you think is better suited to this purpose? Personally, I have more exposure to Judo than BJJ, but more recent exposure to BJJ (by a long shot). Judo has a heavy influence on how I approach my primary art. That said, the sport approach BJJ uses has some real advantages over Judo's for self-defense. I think each could benefit from a dose of the other, but I think the more rounded SD approach would be someone studying Gracie JJ who dabbles in Judo to improve their understanding of stand-up grappling and defense from it (as opposed to the other way around).
D
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I have more exposure to Judo funnily enough, i cant even cite a single BJJ tourments rules beyond "no striking".(not via doing, but i at least know what goes into Judo more than BJJ) My prefrence comes largely from being a weapons bug, which spells bad news if you end up on the ground. And i also didnt really seperate "Combat" from this, so that means single vs group and group v group ability was a consideration in my mind for writing this.
Seperating all bias i have for combat situations here and just looking at it for a self defence situation of one on one. I have a few points floating around here, but i am failing to articulate them correctly and to play them off each other. the first one i have is the seemingly oxymoron of having to do something to avoid it, that being ground fighting. You have to get good at it to defend against it and to fight agaisnt it.
the second i have would be, how much time would it take to reliably best somone, and how much longer to best someone bigger and more atheltic than you as opposed to just buying for time. Maybe just enough knowledge to stop them submitting you. (Id consider stopping them from ending you in a postion at least the basic knowledge needed in a position of combat thats not your focus. Poor wording for that, but that at least gets that point across) with that in mind, would judos ground game introduced a little earlier be poor enough to warrant switching to BJJ or doing BJJ instead? And if we reverse that would Judos stand up be better enough to warrant switching if BJJ did the same? Just ebcause i forgot, doesnt Judo do breakfalls either before BJJ or BJJ doesnt do them?
I think thats everything i had in my mind at least articualted enough to give the broad point across. This is all with the position you are following SD rules, so practising observing, adjusting routes, avoiding dangerous situations etc. So none of that, you walk into a forest that is known to have a den of drug dealers in it at night, by yourself, you let no one know you went there, brought no one with you and didnt bring any form of weapon.
I had no idea where to put this statement so before i forget, the diffrences between BJJ and Judo, become a lot more nuanced the more time you spend in either, they are based on the same JJ, they seem to just go about it in opsoite ways, but both do what the other starts with, just nearer to the end. Actually if i recall BJJ comes from Judo. So not based on the same JJ, one is based off the other just inversed the focus.
Addendum: On exposure note, i have no idea what the norm for starter BJJ is. I at least know starter Judo tends to be Sweeps and Breakfalls as the first techniques they learn. Obvious grip and stance as well. Can somone hit me up with a rough curriculum thats respective of the average school for both, at least at the 0-2 year mark. Just to see if my mind is in the same place as reality in what they both should know. So im not comparing Judo black belts to BJJ white belts or something.(or anyone else is) I know such a thing can be difficult to find for obvious reasons.
Ground fighting on whole is the subject i know least about on revision.
I also wouldnt knock anyone doing either, it just so happens we ended up comparing the two. Didnt someone get a lot of flak for trying to combine BJJ and Judo? I also wouldnt overtly knock either its just a comaprision of which is the "best" in this list of criteria. I person would rather main Judo than BJJ due to my prefrences and build. And that has something to do with Judo being a sigifnicance influnece on Sambo and my obvious wish to at least try that out once.
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Compared to the ground work I learned and saw in Judo (and it has reportedly become more limited since then), BJJ's ground work is worlds ahead. For the standing stuff, I honestly think just a few Judo-style throws are sufficient for a basic grappling foundation for SD (a hip throw, a leg sweep, a dropping shoulder throw or something similar, just off the top of my head). I'm not sure if they are all within GJJ curriculum, but I suspect they are.
Hanzou
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GJJ tends to be practical takedowns revolving around stuffing punches, body fold takedowns, and sweeps/trips. Definitely more SD focused than what you would see in Judo.
Hip throws are taught, but not recommended for self defense.
D
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Fairer comparsion may be compring a spots BJJ place to a sports Judo place. So how do the rules in one of the more common BJJ tourments differ from Judo?
Because you have pretty extensive adaptions in both, and Judo tradtionally allows more, and does striking in kata etc. The rules changed to stop Judo being a Gied freestyle wrestling as far as i recall. Actually, i dont know if that was just olympic, or just because olympic changed all changed.
Because you have pretty extensive adaptions in both, and Judo tradtionally allows more, and does striking in kata etc. The rules changed to stop Judo being a Gied freestyle wrestling as far as i recall. Actually, i dont know if that was just olympic, or just because olympic changed all changed.
Hanzou
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It honestly doesn't change much. The only pitfalls a sport BJJer may have is dealing with strikes while grappling, but that isn't really a huge issue if the BJJer can achieve dominant position in a timely manner. Also I have severe doubts that someone would practice BJJ for an extensive amount of time and NEVER train with strikes employed. The few videos of street fights/exhibitions involving obvious sport BJJ practicioners showed those guys doing a pretty good job of neutralizing strikes, mainly because of the awkward positioning that a competent BJJer csn put someone in even if they're standing and the BJJer is on the ground.
There's also the possibility of someone learning sport BJJ in a MMA gym/environment where you're likely to get spillover simply because of proximity.
And no, I'm not saying that someone doing BJJ can't get their brains bashed in by an attacker, but of all unarmed martial arts, I'd rather know that than pretty much anything else.
D
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You need to include what was asteriked at least if you want to quote it.
And you are, you should make no statement supporting the fact that you are not in a inferior position and you should have taken action to not be in that situation especially if you suspected somone of ill intent towards you. This can be applied to many situations, the one cited is the least worse one. (where you actually have a marginal chance, and that chance is not entirely based on the other person)
To support my statment, just replace "on your back" with "Being held up with a knife" or "being held up by a pistol/rifle". would you make any statement other than "you are done"? (now i will admit, there is a NOMINAL chance of besting the person in those sitations, but you have very little to no control, and this is if murder isnt the objective, you would have been shot or stabbed before you can think of a retort, potetionally muiltiple tiems if they are any good at it, again little to zero control, its their choice to shoot you and when, not yours.)
I also interpreted "on your back" to mean inferior positions in general, not soley on your back, but i already acknowledged being on your back is the least worse one i can think of. At least with what came to my head.
I'm sure a lot of what you write sounds good in your head but quite honestly ploughing through it is like swimming in porridge.
The thread is about women's self defence, women who are being assaulted are usually pushed or thrown on the ground (often ambushed or taken by surprise depending on the situation) so regardless of what you consider inferior or superior, being on the ground, usually on your back with the attacker on top of you is what we have to deal with.
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