Wing Chun Boxing

[KPM]

I've long thought that Mark Phillips blends a lot of boxing mechanics into his Wing Chun, whether on purpose or not. I used to think that was a bad thing. But now I'm changing my mind!

Wing Chun vs Boxing: What is all the fuss?

Here Mark speaks to the idea of Wing Chun having a specialized range. Watch what he does when he is not in that "specialized range"! Sure looks a lot like western boxing!

 

[LFJ]

So if someone is a good boxer, but in the "clinch range" only knows how to hold and hit and then push away..... learning how to deflect and trap and manipulate the opponent ala Wing Chun would indeed be a refinement of his fighting skills.

If it can't be said of Wing Chun that it works well in sparring/fighting, as you stated, adding some techniques that only work in chi-sau isn't going to help the boxer in sparring/fighting.

If you look at something like Lyte Burly's "52 Blocks" there are a lot of elements that "standard" boxing doesn't have, but that bear a good resemblance to Wing Chun. "Skull & Bones" from 52 Blocks is essentially a Bong Sau. There are others.

First video that came up for this shows the same thing used in boxing. So, I don't know what this is supposed to add to boxing.

Here Mark speaks to the idea of Wing Chun having a specialized range. Watch what he does when he is not in that "specialized range"! Sure looks a lot like western boxing!

Because most Wing Chun practitioners don't have an overall fighting strategy, so they look elsewhere to figure out how to fight effectively when they aren't attached to someone's arms.

They think they will do Western Boxing until they are able to achieve "connectivity" and start using their Wing Chun. But, that never happens in reality and it's just the WB that works if anything.

Makes one wonder why they don't just commit fully to learning WB.

 

[Juany118]

Well....yeah! But doesn't that amount to the same thing? Panantukan is essentially western boxing with FMA-specific hand methods thrown in?

Yes indeed, it just read like you were giving Guro Dan credit for that. The Kali I study is Inosanto Kali, so much respect for Guro Dan, but the credit starts in Cebu, not California

 

[KPM]

If it can't be said of Wing Chun that it works well in sparring/fighting, as you stated, adding some techniques that only work in chi-sau isn't going to help the boxer in sparring/fighting.

---Like I said before, it might help out the boxer when he is in clinch range. It might help him deal with someone that tries to tie up his arms and essentially "hold and hit." Rackemann addresses that somewhat in the beginning of this clip:

First video that came up for this shows the same thing used in boxing. So, I don't know what this is supposed to add to boxing.

---I never said that 52 Blocks added things completely unique. Just that they added things that weren't typically part of "standard" boxing. 52 Blocks takes some of the things through boxing history that have been shown to work and essentially assembles them into one system and then makes it a bit more "street applicable". Here is a better explanation of "skull & bones"

Because most Wing Chun practitioners don't have an overall fighting strategy, so they look elsewhere to figure out how to fight effectively when they aren't attached to someone's arms.

---Well, if you actually watch Mark Phillip's video, he is explaining short-comings in Wing Chun methods and technique. So unless your "overall fighting strategy" includes unique footwork and ability to fight from longer range not found in anyone else's Wing Chun, then you are missing the point. (And I will note, as I've said in the past, that charging from long range into close range to play Wing Chun's game is NOT the same thing as having a "long range" ability )


They think they will do Western Boxing until they are able to achieve "connectivity" and start using their Wing Chun. But, that never happens in reality and it's just the WB that works if anything.

---How do you know that never happens in reality? Certainly seems to happen for both Mark Phillips and Paul Rackemann when free sparring!

Makes one wonder why they don't just commit fully to learning WB.

---Looks to me like they have! They just choose to also include some Wing Chun.

 

[LFJ]

---Like I said before, it might help out the boxer when he is in clinch range. It might help him deal with someone that tries to tie up his arms and essentially "hold and hit." Rackemann addresses that somewhat in the beginning of this clip:

Where?

---I never said that 52 Blocks added things completely unique. Just that they added things that weren't typically part of "standard" boxing.

What is "standard" boxing then?

52 Blocks takes some of the things through boxing history that have been shown to work and essentially assembles them into one system and then makes it a bit more "street applicable".

Okay, but we were talking about adding things to boxing.

unless your "overall fighting strategy" includes unique footwork and ability to fight from longer range not found in anyone else's Wing Chun, then you are missing the point.

Well, of course the VT I train has footwork and strategy at longer range. It would be dumb not to.

Do people really think WC was a style created to fight at close range without even addressing how to get there?

They think they will do Western Boxing until they are able to achieve "connectivity" and start using their Wing Chun. But, that never happens in reality and it's just the WB that works if anything.

---How do you know that never happens in reality? Certainly seems to happen for both Mark Phillips and Paul Rackemann when free sparring!

Never seen that from either of them.

Makes one wonder why they don't just commit fully to learning WB.

---Looks to me like they have! They just choose to also include some Wing Chun.

Funny, since they are supposed to be WC-based, but all they seem to know about WC is some hand techniques, no fighting strategy. They have to go to boxing for that.

And in the case of Rackemann, it appears he looked for similar techniques in boxing to figure out how to use them effectively, and ended up just doing boxing while calling it "Wing Chun Boxing".

 

[KPM]

^^^^Sorry. Not going to let you turn this thread into one of your big pointless arguments. Ignoring you as best as I can from here on out.

 

[KPM]

Lyte Burly gives his two cents about combining Boxing and Wing Chun. He is obviously much more a Boxer than a Wing Chun guy, but he has studied Wing Chun:

Here LB talks about merging Boxing and Wing Chun, and what he's saying about range matches up with what Mark Phillips was saying:

Here LB talks about how Wing Chun has no "long range game." As I noted before, it isn't enough to just charge into close range and claim that as a "long range" ability:

Here LB talks about achieving that "connectivity" to use skills developed in Chi Sau:

Now clearly LB is not an expert on Wing Chun. But love him or hate him, the guys know fighting and makes some good points.

 

[Juany118]

Lyte Burly gives his two cents about combining Boxing and Wing Chun. He is obviously much more a Boxer than a Wing Chun guy, but he has studied Wing Chun:

Here LB talks about merging Boxing and Wing Chun, and what he's saying about range matches up with what Mark Phillips was saying:

Here LB talks about how Wing Chun has no "long range game." As I noted before, it isn't enough to just charge into close range and claim that as a "long range" ability:

Here LB talks about achieving that "connectivity" to use skills developed in Chi Sau:

Now clearly LB is not an expert on Wing Chun. But love him or hate him, the guys know fighting and makes some good points.

I think your post illustrates something that has annoyed me about some TMA practitioners for sometime. Now they may be VERY skilled at what they do in their school, even a Sifu or Master, but too many simply do not give the respect due to those who have fought for real. Now if they were to actually listen to what those with the experience have to say and then disagree logically I wouldn't have an issue. However they enter with a closed mind and in in order to justify there stance they end up using any number of excuses but the excuses lack serious detail to support them.

 

[drop bear]

Funny, since they are supposed to be WC-based, but all they seem to know about WC is some hand techniques, no fighting strategy. They have to go to boxing for that.

And in the case of Rackemann, it appears he looked for similar techniques in boxing to figure out how to use them effectively, and ended up just doing boxing while calling it "Wing Chun Boxing".

There is always going to be a scale with chun on one side boxing on the other and this blend somewhere in the middle.

Boxing is a pretty big style. As it is basically two people punching each other. Pretty much so long as you are just throwing punches. You are boxing.

You can box by standing up and throwing chain punches. No rule against it.

 

[drop bear]

I mean you want to set up boundaries between chun and boxing. But other that a vague feeling of wanting to. Nobody has a suggested a method of doing that.

There does not even seem to be a plan as to what you want boxing to do for chun.

And I think you need to get that locked down.

 

[DanT]

Lyte Burly gives his two cents about combining Boxing and Wing Chun. He is obviously much more a Boxer than a Wing Chun guy, but he has studied Wing Chun:

Here LB talks about merging Boxing and Wing Chun, and what he's saying about range matches up with what Mark Phillips was saying:

Here LB talks about how Wing Chun has no "long range game." As I noted before, it isn't enough to just charge into close range and claim that as a "long range" ability:

Here LB talks about achieving that "connectivity" to use skills developed in Chi Sau:

Now clearly LB is not an expert on Wing Chun. But love him or hate him, the guys know fighting and makes some good points.

The last video is most similar to how I fight using wing chun. Notice how he uses his arm to indirectly cover the opponents. I like that video a lot.

 

[DanT]

As a side note I was always taught how to slip and duck under and to the side of punches. In fact one of the drills we often do assumes that your hands are full (groceries or in your pocket or what not), and you have to rely on ducking and evading.

 

[LFJ]

Lyte Burly gives his two cents about combining Boxing and Wing Chun.

Do you also think Wing Chun is "tap and go", "tap, tap, bang"?

That's no different than what many boxers already do.

Here LB talks about merging Boxing and Wing Chun, and what he's saying about range matches up with what Mark Phillips was saying:

Here LB talks about how Wing Chun has no "long range game." As I noted before, it isn't enough to just charge into close range and claim that as a "long range" ability:

It also matches up with what I was saying, about most WC guys having no overall fighting strategy, and having to look elsewhere to figure out how to actually fight.

You agree with me when you say;
"it isn't enough to just charge into close range and claim that as a 'long range' ability."

That's basically what this thread is about.

You said; "Boxing works in free sparring/fighting pretty well. The same thing can't be said of Wing Chun."

You asked; "Is combining Wing Chun and Boxing the way to really get it to work in fighting/sparring?"


LB says he'd use MT or WB to get into WC range. The other two guys you mentioned in this thread also go to WB for overall strategy.

But, think about it, would a standup striking art be created to fight at close range without addressing how to get there? Isn't that stupid fantasy fighting?

You obviously have to pass through some danger zones to get to ideal position. Why would WC not address this? Do you think people used to be able to teleport themselves to close range?

Of course YMVT has footwork and strategy at long range to manage distance, bait and draw, and get to the preferred range/position intelligently.

It shouldn't be "charge straight in" versus "resort to Western Boxing".

The problem is, as I've been saying, that most YM students never learned the free fighting aspect of his VT. Now everyone has to look elsewhere to fill gaps.

If the gap they're looking to fill is for an overall fighting strategy, that's a pretty freaking huge gap!
It's basically the entire thing. Techniques without strategy are useless.

So, again, if people's WC is that deficient, why don't they stop wasting time and just do straight-up boxing?

 

[drop bear]

So, again, if people's WC is that deficient, why don't they stop wasting time and just do straight-up boxing?

Because your martial art should be more than the guy who created it. And that means taking the concepts and exploring different ideas with it.

The deficiencies are how a martial art Progress's.

 

[LFJ]

Because your martial art should be more than the guy who created it. And that means taking the concepts and exploring different ideas with it.

The deficiencies are how a martial art Progress's.

Problem is the concepts are missing and needing to be made up for by resorting to other styles, and in the end, these guys end up basically just doing Western Boxing while still calling it Wing Chun, or "Wing Chun Boxing".

That's not progressing the art. That's just tacking the name onto something completely different so that it can appear as if Wing Chun isn't as useless as it has been acknowledged to be.

 

[KPM]

Of course YMVT has footwork and strategy at long range to manage distance, bait and draw, and get to the preferred range/position intelligently.

Ok. If you've got Wing Chun that has a "long range game", and Wing Chun that works reliable and consistently in free sparring with other systems.....then let's see it! I've posted lots of video so far backing up what I've been saying. How about you post some video backing up what you're saying rather than just running your mouth???

Or....at the very least...give us a description and explanation of this "long range game" that you are talking about. So far, all you do is argue rather than actually contribute to the discussion.

 

[KPM]

I mean you want to set up boundaries between chun and boxing. But other that a vague feeling of wanting to. Nobody has a suggested a method of doing that.

---Why do you think there needs to be boundaries? Rackemann doesn't seem to place any boundary between Wing Chun and boxing. He seems to blend them together pretty well. And he says that he no longer teaches the forms. He starts by teaching solid boxing base and then teaches the Wing Chun "sau's", Chi Sau, and various drills. Mark Phillips is essentially boxing at range while also including some Wing Chun defensive hands and then flowing smoothly into "standard" Wing Chun at close range. I don't think a boundary is needed or desirable.

There does not even seem to be a plan as to what you want boxing to do for chun.

---I guess any "plan" would be to make Wing Chun more functional in a modern fighting/sparring environment. To "update" or "evolve" Wing Chun somewhat. Now this wouldn't be for everyone! I would certainly not want to see "classical" Wing Chun go away! And obviously people are already doing this whether they truly acknowledge it or not. It seems there are a lot of people out there that are doing "classical Wing Chun" but then resort to some very "boxing-like" structures and methods when sparring, whether they are doing it on purpose or not! At least that what it looks like in a whole lot of Wing Chun sparring footage that is posted! And some here have already admitted that this is true.

 

[LFJ]

Or....at the very least...give us a description and explanation of this "long range game" that you are talking about. So far, all you do is argue rather than actually contribute to the discussion.

I have done so many times, in fact, mostly addressing you personally.
You always seem to forget. Maybe one of these times it will stick.

See here, for example. I explain a bit how a VT fighter might behave on the outside, which is quite different from what is done once in close range.

It is all part of the overall fighting strategy of VT that ties into close range tactics. Without it, you'll likely be knocked out before ever getting a chance to attempt your "connectivity" and throw a punch, unless you resort to other styles like MT or WB to fill that gap and stay safe at longer range.

 

[LFJ]

And he says that he no longer teaches the forms. He starts by teaching solid boxing base and then teaches the Wing Chun "sau's", Chi Sau, and various drills.

He looked for the "sau's" in boxing and started doing them that way, with an actual strategy, to figure out how they can work.

Which means he's just doing boxing while also training chi-sau, so he can continue to call it Wing Chun.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

I mean you want to set up boundaries between chun and boxing. But other that a vague feeling of wanting to. Nobody has a suggested a method of doing that.

There does not even seem to be a plan as to what you want boxing to do for chun.

And I think you need to get that locked down.

I don't see hard boundaries between them, either. Mind you, I'm not highly knowledgeable in western boxing (a smattering, only), nor in WC (spectator, only), but I don't see hard boundaries between arts, in general. Some are harder to blend (some training/use principles that seem to conflict), but I've seen so many variations that people have trained and integrated for their own use. I'm not sure hard boundaries around an art are good for the art. They freeze an art artificially, and stop it from evolving as knowledge and need change.