Wing Chun Boxing

[karatejj]

So again, you can see a boxer's "duck and weave motion" and a "high cover" in the Biu Jee form, but you can't see a Tan shape with the hand closed being a punch? Or that motion in the Chum Kiu form being a body shot? You really need to get over yourself.

Sifu, ur bein dumb here. Hes sayin taht tan not cover inside, not that it cant be punch

Send me message if u want to speak about, ok?

 

[geezer]

I don't care if other people want do something else. But, the interpretation of taan given here is demonstrably incorrect.

That doesn't mean the action is "incorrect" if that's what they choose to do, but to call it taan is not right.

In my experience, non-speakers of Cantonese in WC/VT/WT.... and perhaps even some people who do speak Cantonese, abuse the terminology atrociously. I admit that I am guilty of this as well. While I recognize that having a knowledge of the Cantonese language will facilitate understanding, my old Chinese sifu insisted that it is not necessary. As he often pointed out, there are many Cantonese speakers in WC/VT/WT who understand nothing of the system! On the other hand it is quite posible to learn the system well and know nothing of Cantonese.

That said, I always appreciate your linguistic clarifications. They are of more than academic interest, as I often find they do enrich my understanding.

 

[geezer]

Do you think tan position good for deflect inwards compare to different way?

Generally speaking, no.

...As I stated in my previous post, I would use other techniques to deflect inward or downward.

 

[LFJ]

So again, you can see a boxer's "duck and weave motion" and a "high cover" in the Biu Jee form, but you can't see a Tan shape with the hand closed being a punch? Or that motion in the Chum Kiu form being a body shot? You really need to get over yourself.

It's simply a matter of concepts and actions already existing in the system, versus you making things up while directly contradicting the concept you're citing.

what would you call the upper arm motion when done at the same time as the lower Gan Sau in the dummy form? Especially when using it to deflect something across and inward?

That would be jam-sau, a fuk concept, the exact opposite of taan.

And, it doesn't deflect across, it strikes directly to the target.

Have you seriously done SNT for 30 years? This is super basic stuff.

Anyone that can't see that "to spread" can mean outward or inward is being pretty narrow-minded!

It's not English. It's a Chinese word that means to spread out, or open. It cannot close to the centerline.

 

[geezer]

Finger musta slipped, i not so good on word an numbers

Ah! So your literacy is equaled by your numeracy! I suspected as much.

 

[LFJ]

In my experience, non-speakers of Cantonese in WC/VT/WT.... and perhaps even some people who do speak Cantonese, abuse the terminology atrociously. I admit that I am guilty of this as well. While I recognize that having a knowledge of the Cantonese language will facilitate understanding, my old Chinese sifu insisted that it is not necessary. As he often pointed out, there are many Cantonese speakers in WC/VT/WT who understand nothing of the system! On the other hand it is quite posible to learn the system well and know nothing of Cantonese.

That said, I always appreciate your linguistic clarifications. They are of more than academic interest, as I often find they do enrich my understanding.

As wild as some interpretations can get, I've never seen anyone use taan on the outside, closing to center with the inside of the forearm.

That is never a position in pun-sau for a reason. What KPM thinks does that is not taan, but jam. He has confused it by looking at the open hand while not knowing the concept. Neither taan nor jam have anything to do with the handshape.

 

[geezer]

---I agree! Tan is better used outward than inward because when you do it inward you risk crossing center and putting yourself in a vulnerable position. But that doesn't mean there won't be times when you would use an inward Tan, depending upon the situation. And, as I noted before, what would you call the upper arm motion when done at the same time as the lower Gan Sau in the dummy form? Especially when using it to deflect something across and inward?

This movement from the Biu Tze and Mook Yang Jong forms (as seen being practiced in a paired drill by two of my former kung-fu brothers)?

https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/-..._to_Bloomington_scissores_gaun_sau_061715.jpg

We call that high-low gaun sau or scissors gaun sau. Yes, the upper hand chops in towards center, but if you look closely you will see that the upper palm is more vertical and actually strikes forward, deflecting and attacking. In our system it may look a bit like a tan-sau, but does not function as such.

...OK, looking closely at that picture, I do see that the upper hand position really looks a lot like a tan-sau, especially as demonstrated by my former si-dai on the right. That's not how I learned it. Maybe he bought his wide WT "master's stripes"? Oh well, I don't need them anyway since I don't train in my pajamas.

 

[KPM]

Sifu, ur bein dumb here. Hes sayin taht tan not cover inside, not that it cant be punch

Send me message if u want to speak about, ok?

He did say that seeing Tan as a punch was the same as not understanding what a Tan is, and has definitely said that the Tan cannot be a punch. Have you not been reading this discussion?

 

[LFJ]

He did say that seeing Tan as a punch was the same as not understanding what a Tan is, and has definitely said that the Tan cannot be a punch. Have you not been reading this discussion?

Taan is a punch concept, but the punch you did is not using the taan concept, because you don't understand either taan or that punch.

 

[KPM]

It's simply a matter of concepts and actions already existing in the system, versus you making things up while directly contradicting the concept you're citing.

---What makes you think I made it up? I'm not the first to see this simple punch being based upon the Tan shape. Heck, I once saw a guy post a video of himself doing the entire SNT form with every action converted to a punch! Gan Sau as a downward sweeping hammerfist, Tan Sau as a drilling punch, punches instead of palm strikes, etc. Again, you are obviously far too close-minded and think that your version of VT is THE version of Wing Chun by which everything is compared!!!



That would be jam-sau, a fuk concept, the exact opposite of taan.

----Nope. You can "spread" inward or outward. Outward contacts with the outer edge of the forearm first and "spreads" to the flat of the forearm, while inward contacts with the inner edge of the forearm first and "spreads" to the flat of the forearm. Simple common sense.


And, it doesn't deflect across, it strikes directly to the target.

---It doesn't always strike directly into the target. Again, you seem to be expecting ALL Wing Chun to be your uber special VT!

Have you seriously done SNT for 30 years? This is super basic stuff.

----And you seriously think you can speak for ALL of Wing Chun? That everyone should conform to your understanding of VT? And yet you have protested in the past when I pointed out that you always compare what others do to your own understanding of WSLVT and therefore call anything that is different "broken" or "incomplete" or "wrong"???



It's not English. It's a Chinese word that means to spread out, or open. It cannot close to the centerline.

---Who said anything about "closing" to the centerline??? Someone can deflect inward just as well as they can outward. And I already explained that by "inward" I simply mean the left hand moving to the right or vice versa. You are so interested in arguing and proving me wrong that you haven't really been listening to what I've been saying.

 

[KPM]

That is never a position in pun-sau for a reason. What KPM thinks does that is not taan, but jam. He has confused it by looking at the open hand while not knowing the concept. Neither taan nor jam have anything to do with the handshape.

Man, you are so dense!!!! Again....is poon-sau the "be all" and "end all" for your Wing Chun? I guess that's why Chi Sau is all we ever see in PB's videos!

I never said that the Tan Sau is a punch directly. I said that a punch can be seen in the Tan Sau shape.....ie....ignoring the concept behind the Tan as a defense, one can look at the shape and action in the form and also see it as a punch. Is the resulting punch a "Tan Sau"? Of course not! A Tan Sau is a defensive action, not a punch! But the Tan shape with the hand closed, and the energy directed forward rather than "spreading" easily becomes a punch. That's just basic understanding. That is, as long as one has an open mind and is willing to think for themselves rather than being so dogmatic and "sifu sez"......

 

[KPM]

We call that high-low gaun sau or scissors gaun sau. Yes, the upper hand chops in towards center, but if you look closely you will see that the upper palm is more vertical and actually strikes forward, deflecting and attacking. In our system it may look a bit like a tan-sau, but does not function as such.

----Some lineages do the Tan Sau somewhat vertical as well....TWC does. I've seen some lineages refer to the top hand simply as a "high line Gan Sau"....because they didn't have a good name for it! In your picture they seem to be obviously sweeping across to contact forearms, and not chopping inward to attack towards the torso. But if done sweeping inward, it can "spread" and deflect rather than impact.

 

[geezer]

We call that high-low gaun sau or scissors gaun sau. Yes, the upper hand chops in towards center, but if you look closely you will see that the upper palm is more vertical and actually strikes forward, deflecting and attacking. In our system it may look a bit like a tan-sau, but does not function as such.

----Some lineages do the Tan Sau somewhat vertical as well....TWC does. I've seen some lineages refer to the top hand simply as a "high line Gan Sau"....because they didn't have a good name for it! In your picture they seem to be obviously sweeping across to contact forearms, and not chopping inward to attack towards the torso. But if done sweeping inward, it can "spread" and deflect rather than impact.

The reason we call the upper hand high gaun-sau comes from the energy and function which is chopping and not spreading. Yes, any gaun-sau, high or low can deflect and/or strike, but in the VT I train, the energy is totally different.

Personally, I don't see it matters if, in your system, you use the term tan-sau to include an inward deflection, as long as we understand each other.

....or to put it another way, here are a couple of possible reactions to you presenting different ideas which may not mesh with what somebody else does:



1. Oh, well that's not how we do it, but it's an interesting idea. I do have some concerns about it though, such as....

2. That's wrong. You are obviously an ignorant buffoon. Allow me to enlighten you as to the error of your ways....



--Personally, I favor the first mode. It makes for more pleasant conversations, and sometimes I learn stuff from unexpected sources.

 

[LFJ]

You can "spread" inward or outward.

You can, but since taan means to spread out, if you "spread inward" you are not using the taan concept.

Up to you to do what you want, but if you call it taan, you're just wrong by definition.

---It doesn't always strike directly into the target.

If it "deflects across" then it's arm-chasing.

---Who said anything about "closing" to the centerline???...
...I already explained that by "inward" I simply mean the left hand moving to the right or vice versa.

Moving your left arm to the right, or vice versa, closes space between your arm and the centerline.

Taan means to spread out or open, so not to your center.

is poon-sau the "be all" and "end all" for your Wing Chun

No, but it's a primary method of developing taan vs fuk energies. It should tell you something why taan never takes fuk position.

ignoring the concept behind the Tan as a defense, one can look at the shape and action in the form and also see it as a punch.

Ignoring the concept (rather not knowing it)... Exactly my point.

The concept is a punch with built-in defense from the elbow. This is lin-siu-daai-da, the basic idea built through SNT, daan-chi-sau, pun-sau, etc.. Fuk/jam is its counterpart.

A Tan Sau is a defensive action, not a punch! But the Tan shape with the hand closed, and the energy directed forward rather than "spreading" easily becomes a punch. That's just basic understanding.

More like basic misunderstanding.

You are castrating the concept completely to get what you're doing. You even admit this.

I've seen some lineages refer to the top hand simply as a "high line Gan Sau"....because they didn't have a good name for it!

It's jam-sau. Basic SNT. Some never learned it.

In your picture they seem to be obviously sweeping across to contact forearms, and not chopping inward to attack towards the torso. But if done sweeping inward, it can "spread" and deflect rather than impact.

A.k.a. arm-chasing.

 

[Martial D]

As wild as some interpretations can get, I've never seen anyone use taan on the outside, closing to center with the inside of the forearm.

That is never a position in pun-sau for a reason. What KPM thinks does that is not taan, but jam. He has confused it by looking at the open hand while not knowing the concept. Neither taan nor jam have anything to do with the handshape.

I'm going to take this rare(unicorn rare) opertunity to agree with you about something. If you use taan inward you'll get a punch in the face. I don't care what any tradition or official party line says, I learned that one at the end of a 6 ounce leather gloves ages ago.

I disagree about the hand position though, I think it's important to keep the palm up shape, to hook incoming punches between the back of your hand and your wrist so you can twist into a grab/fook or sink it down and expose their flank.

What does your wslvt have to say about that?

 

[wckf92]

I disagree about the hand position though, I think it's important to keep the palm up shape, to hook incoming punches between the back of your hand and your wrist so you can twist into a grab/fook or sink it down and expose their flank.

Martial D...are you saying that in your WC...WRT hand / wrist position, you have a bent wrist when your hand/arm is in the Tan shape/usage?

 

[geezer]

Martial D...are you saying that in your WC...WRT hand / wrist position, you have a bent wrist when your hand/arm is in the Tan shape/usage?

What's "WRT"?

And although your question above wasn't directed at me, just for the record, we do have a slight bend in the wrist in the extending centerline tan-sau as performed in the saam pai fut sequence in Siu Nim Tau -- in the VT I train (coming out of the WT branch of YMVT) as the palm is kept horizontal throughout the extension. This is not the case in the crossed, or gow-cha tan-sau movement that opens the form.

 

[wckf92]

What's "WRT"?

And although your question above wasn't directed at me, just for the record, we do have a slight bend in the wrist in the extending centerline tan-sau as performed in the saam pai fut sequence in Siu Nim Tau -- in the VT I train (coming out of the WT branch of YMVT) as the palm is kept horizontal throughout the extension. This is not the case in the crossed, or gow-cha tan-sau movement that opens the form.

Sorry..."with regard to"

 

[drop bear]

I've been thinking about this and, I agree with LFJ that for the most part. IMO, tan sau serves best to spread to the outside. Of course you can use a "tan sau" position to deflect to the inside, but normally wouldn't you use a vertically aligned palm as a jum-sau to deflect downward ....or roll your hand over into a palm-down fook-sau ... or even use a pak-sau, to deflect inward?

---I agree! Tan is better used outward than inward because when you do it inward you risk crossing center and putting yourself in a vulnerable position. But that doesn't mean there won't be times when you would use an inward Tan, depending upon the situation. And, as I noted before, what would you call the upper arm motion when done at the same time as the lower Gan Sau in the dummy form? Especially when using it to deflect something across and inward?

I think the problem I have with LFJ is that he won't even entertain the idea that "there is more than one way to skin a cat" and arbitrarily dismisses divergent opinion.

----True! Anyone that can't see that "to spread" can mean outward or inward is being pretty narrow-minded!

Ok. Had to look up taan sau.

Basically similar to boxing in concept.

There are a few basic ideas that you can employ if you get caught in a bad position doing any move.

So if you get caught in the midle. You pretty much have to strike. They have a shot at you. You have a shot at them so you just be first.

If you have stopped an arm. Then the threat is the other arm. And you can change levels with the expectation that other arm will come. So gumby block you should allready be ducking and weaving.

And all your blocks and strikes should be fired off center. so his return strikes dont find your head as easily. You can do this by slipping or by using footwork.

Givin it looks like you always want to step into position to strike rather than reach. Footwork might be better.

(but seriously head movement would raise your game i think.)

 

[Martial D]

Martial D...are you saying that in your WC...WRT hand / wrist position, you have a bent wrist when your hand/arm is in the Tan shape/usage?

Yes. Like you are holding a plate.