I failed to address some points.
Uh, where did I change my argument?
I suppose it is possible you simply did not articulate your point well. First you simply said "I don't see WC, I see kick boxing." I explain how frame of reference can influence said perceptions, how a WC guy, a Karate guy and a TKD guy (or girl of course) can all see the same technique and see it as something from "their" art. You studiously ignored this point and then starting posting photos and videos of a training/Donnie Yen perfect stance, and started talking about "distinctive" features.
The fact you don't see WC in what Orr is teaching is, tbh, because you can't accept the idea that most, if not all striking arts, share more than a few techniques, they simply explain them with different terminology and FB this is likely compounded by the fact that you simply don't know enough about WC, to be able to be able to see that while you say a punch looks like kick boxing it is also consistent with WC. What you see in a Donnie Yen Movie, or with students in a training/sparring scenario bears very little resemblance (stance wise) to WC in a real fight. It is little different than the Karate stance I posted in terms of real fighting. So when you move to the "distinctive" argument it's operating on a false premise.
...I said in the beginning that I don't see the WC in what Orr is doing, and I still don't see the WC in what Orr is doing. My point with bringing up Machida is that I CAN see the karate elements in his fighting style, and clearly others can too, which is why a major media hub published a lengthy article about it. His karate influence is obvious to anyone watching him fight, and that is NOT the case when we talk about Orr.
The problem is not everything between different Martial Arts is distinctive in traditional martial arts, even the footwork that you see Machida uses in MMA is NOT distinctive to Karate. The way he stands in a semi bladed stance is actually consistent with not only WC, but kick boxing, Savate, TKD and other arts. The manner in which this stance allows him to retreat under the threat of being overwhelmed is also consistent with these arts. You miss something rather important, because you ignored this fact when I broached it before you raised Machida as an examlle, people simply attribute it to Karate because a point of reference. This point of reference was created because Machida is quite open about how he trained in Karate and integrated it into his MMA.
Further I recognize your key points, but those points are invalidated by the examples I posted.
Actually they are quite relevant if you re not walking in the door with a clearly preconceived notion written in the metaphorical stone of your mind.
You can't say that in the end everything looks alike when we have very clear examples of fighters from unique MA bases looking unique at the highest level of combat sports.
The problem is that the things you are noting as "unique" aren't really. As I said Machida, just as an example, is seen as performing Karate because he studies Karate and says it's Karate but other martial artists would not see something alien to them in what he does.
Wasn't karate one of your "conceptual MAs" as well? Then how do you explain Machida looking like a distinct fighter while utilizing a "conceptual MA"? You spent several posts trying to peg Machida as looking similar to other MMA fighters,
First indeed it is. The best way I have ever seen Bukai described has been...
"The first,
kihon bunkai, is basic. Everybody does the movement exactly the same way. Itās like learning
kata. The second is
oyo bunkai. It refers to varying the movement according to your body size. The third,
renzoku bunkai, entails a continuous action whereby you do one technique, then your opponent executes a different one. Itās almost like fighting. Itās a gradual progression, almost a free exercise, but itās not sparring. After this you then move to sparring and then to actual fighting. The first four steps are simply the training necessary to prepare you for the reality of the last."
That said I NEVER said that Machida looked like other MMA fighters. That is you projecting because you are routinely focused, quite myopically, on MMA. What I said is that traditional martial arts practitioners can look at different fighters performing different techniques and, without clear statements from the fighter saying "I study Karate" al la Machida, "...Muay Thai" al la Carano or "...Judo" al la Rousey, they will see particular techniques from their frame of reference(s). Just as a few brief and hardly expansive examples, the Judoka and the Daito-Jujutsu practitioner can see the same take down, a WC practitioner Kick Boxer can see the same punch, the Karate and TKD practitioner can see the same kick. If they are all ignorant of the particular fighters frame of reference, they can identify the technique as being consistent with their personal frame reference and none of them would be wrong.
The fact that you can't see this and are instead fixated on appearance, followed by explicit statements of the fighter involved, says a lot more about your understanding of Martial Arts than anything else.
