Wing Chun in street fight

[cwk]

tell me about it.
About 9 years ago, a friend of mine was attacked by two blokes in a taxi queue while he was waiting with his girlfriend. Now, my mate's a bit of a big, handy lad and he gave these two blokes a bit of a beating. Anyway to cut a long story short, my mate ended up getting sent to prison. for being attacked! Where's the justice in that?

 

[matsu]

Can't agree anymore, in the UK it's even worse you hurt someone breaking into your house and your the one going to jail

dont even get me started on this...... although recently an asian businessman got his sentence appealled after he beat the intruder up.
about time some good ole common sense came into play.
if tyhe burglar wasnt there he wouldnt have got hurt.
no way on this earth would i not protect my house and family from someone who broke into my house. no way!!
sorry rant over lol
matsu

 

[Tez3]

Can't agree anymore, in the UK it's even worse you hurt someone breaking into your house and your the one going to jail.

So do what you have to do and move along.

No, you don't. You are repeating what is basically an urban myth. You are allowed, by law to use reasonable force to defend yourself. If in fear of your life you can strike first and you can use a weapon, you can even kill. You will have to justify the force you use but as long as it's reasonable you will not be taken to court.

The Asian business man who was taken to court was arrested because he left his house and along with two others chased a man down several streets and beat him up with cricket bats. That's not defending yourself and it's not reasonable.

I've heard a great many stories about friends of friends etc who 'only defending' themselves but when the story is probed into deeper it turns out the force was far from reasonable. it's reasonable to hit someone, it's not reasonable to kick them ion the head when down. I take every story of people being done for 'just defending' themselves with a large pinch of salt now.

 

[jks9199]

tell me about it.
About 9 years ago, a friend of mine was attacked by two blokes in a taxi queue while he was waiting with his girlfriend. Now, my mate's a bit of a big, handy lad and he gave these two blokes a bit of a beating. Anyway to cut a long story short, my mate ended up getting sent to prison. for being attacked! Where's the justice in that?

It depends. What are the laws of the nation? I'm going to assume there is some similarity in basic principles with US law, since US law comes from the Old Common Law, in significant part. So, the next question is was his response reasonable and proportionate to the threat? Did his actions constitute an attack under the law because he moved in on them after they had stopped fighting?

All we've got is your super-sketchy description and "where's the justice." The details make all the difference.

 

[BloodMoney]

You will have to justify the force you use but as long as it's reasonable you will not be taken to court.

I actually lol'd at this.

In a perfect world, yes. But I ask you, whos definition of reasonable? Was the judge there that night in the alleyway? Did the cops see the situation, feel the anxiety and danger you did? Cops have pepper spray, tasers, batons (and backup) to protect them, youll find what they think is reasonable might just differ from yours.

Im sorry but I completely disagree with the bold part of your sentence. Ive seen people go down for some incredibly unreasonable reasons. Maybe where you live but over here your expected to just lay down and get the **** kicked out of you. No thanks.

- it's reasonable to hit someone, it's not reasonable to kick them ion the head when down. I take every story of people being done for 'just defending' themselves with a large pinch of salt now.

Once again, who determines when its reasonable to kick someone where? Its all very well to comment when your sitting back observing, or reading about it, but what about being there in the moment and fearing for your life? What if an assailant is trying to kill me, and I dont want him getting back up, he might be armed or just way bigger than me, or perhaps on drugs etc. I see what your saying, and I agree people use dubious amounts of force sometimes, but should I be punished for reacting too violently when someone else provoked the situation in the first place? Is the onus on me to show restraint and carefully cuddle an assailant into submission when he couldnt give a **** about me or my safety? Plenty of guys round my neighborhood who wouldnt give a second though to stomping on my head while im down, yet im expected to not use the same force in response?

In a perfect situation I would use only the exact amount of force required to stop an attack...but the reality is I am not going to go gently on a criminal just for his sake, someone my size cant afford to crank on a strength based arm lock and simply subdue a 6'6" drunken rugby player. Im going to punch him in the throat, consequences be damned, I read the papers and I know people get stomped to death in my city, that aint gunna be me...I got a wife to come home to.

 

[dungeonworks]

Either way, at the end of the day, it's better to be tried by twelve than carried by six.

 

[cwk]

It depends. What are the laws of the nation? I'm going to assume there is some similarity in basic principles with US law, since US law comes from the Old Common Law, in significant part. So, the next question is was his response reasonable and proportionate to the threat? Did his actions constitute an attack under the law because he moved in on them after they had stopped fighting?

All we've got is your super-sketchy description and "where's the justice." The details make all the difference.

It happened in England and all I can go on is what my mate told me and there's no reason why he would lie to me.
apparently, one of the blokes punched him in the head a couple of times and was lining up another one when my mate hit him,put on his backside and then kicked him in the face as he was getting back up to have another go. the other guy saw what happened to his friend and lost his bottle (funny how that happens eh?).Anyway, the guy who got kicked had a few teeth missing and a pretty bad concussion.
yeah, maybe you could say he shouldn't have kicked him when he went down but come on, this is the real world. if I hit someone who's attacking me and they go down and then try to get back up, you can bet your **** I'll kick them in the head. A lot of the time in these situations, the adrenaline is pumping so hard because of fear/anger and everything happens so fast that there's no time to think about stuff like "am I only using reasonable force here?". I worked on the doors in the UK and I've seen the damage a group of yobs will do to someone just for fun and there's no way I want to be on the receiving end of that kind of violence. if it was me, I'd do whatever it took and use whatever level of force it took until I felt sure the assault was over and I was safe. I'd worry about the consequences later, as I expect would most people. In the UK anyway.
maybe it's different in the US

 

[Tez3]

I actually lol'd at this.

In a perfect world, yes. But I ask you, whos definition of reasonable? Was the judge there that night in the alleyway? Did the cops see the situation, feel the anxiety and danger you did? Cops have pepper spray, tasers, batons (and backup) to protect them, youll find what they think is reasonable might just differ from yours.

Im sorry but I completely disagree with the bold part of your sentence. Ive seen people go down for some incredibly unreasonable reasons. Maybe where you live but over here your expected to just lay down and get the **** kicked out of you. No thanks.



Once again, who determines when its reasonable to kick someone where? Its all very well to comment when your sitting back observing, or reading about it, but what about being there in the moment and fearing for your life? What if an assailant is trying to kill me, and I dont want him getting back up, he might be armed or just way bigger than me, or perhaps on drugs etc. I see what your saying, and I agree people use dubious amounts of force sometimes, but should I be punished for reacting too violently when someone else provoked the situation in the first place? Is the onus on me to show restraint and carefully cuddle an assailant into submission when he couldnt give a **** about me or my safety? Plenty of guys round my neighborhood who wouldnt give a second though to stomping on my head while im down, yet im expected to not use the same force in response?

In a perfect situation I would use only the exact amount of force required to stop an attack...but the reality is I am not going to go gently on a criminal just for his sake, someone my size cant afford to crank on a strength based arm lock and simply subdue a 6'6" drunken rugby player. Im going to punch him in the throat, consequences be damned, I read the papers and I know people get stomped to death in my city, that aint gunna be me...I got a wife to come home to.

Ok first of all the police don't decide who goes to court and who doesn't, they don't make that judgement, the Crown Proscecution Service do. If you read the laws on self defence yes you will find that fear, circumstances etc are all to be taken into consideration which is why they don't get prosecuted in the first place. The police will always question everyone involved and take statements, often this is mistaken by laymen for being arrested or being blamed but it's not. No one has been taken to court for genuinely defending themselves however much damage they may have done to their attacker despite what you might read in the tabloids here.

You would be surprised by the amount of force that can actually be used here and no you aren't expected to lie down and take a beating at all. There's been various stories in the news recently of people hitting back at attackers, none have been arrrested for it nor have they got anything less than congratulations from the police though with the caveat for people to be careful when having a go.
My instructor spent some time in NZ among shall we say the less non violent people there and not once did he get arrested for anything he did to defend himself and he's quite a handy guy when it comes to self defence.

And I'm more than familiar with 6'6'' drunken rugby players here, come across them most nights. Ours are mostly Fijians who want a fight after a few too many pops of rum.

 

[Tez3]

It happened in England and all I can go on is what my mate told me and there's no reason why he would lie to me.
apparently, one of the blokes punched him in the head a couple of times and was lining up another one when my mate hit him,put on his backside and then kicked him in the face as he was getting back up to have another go. the other guy saw what happened to his friend and lost his bottle (funny how that happens eh?).Anyway, the guy who got kicked had a few teeth missing and a pretty bad concussion.
yeah, maybe you could say he shouldn't have kicked him when he went down but come on, this is the real world. if I hit someone who's attacking me and they go down and then try to get back up, you can bet your **** I'll kick them in the head. A lot of the time in these situations, the adrenaline is pumping so hard because of fear/anger and everything happens so fast that there's no time to think about stuff like "am I only using reasonable force here?". I worked on the doors in the UK and I've seen the damage a group of yobs will do to someone just for fun and there's no way I want to be on the receiving end of that kind of violence. if it was me, I'd do whatever it took and use whatever level of force it took until I felt sure the assault was over and I was safe. I'd worry about the consequences later, as I expect would most people. In the UK anyway.
maybe it's different in the US

As you say you can only go on what he told you and the fact that his adrenaline was running high at the time what he thinks was the truth may well not have been. The guy on his backside may not have been getting back up at all, may in fact have been laid on the floor. The CPS is short of money and will not proscecute unless it has a water tight case with a lot of witness statements so I would suggest that things may not have been as described.

I'm well used to violent encounters and I'm well used to seeing people defend themselves and having no problems with it, rarely are doormen for example arrested for defending themselves even if they strike first which again is allowable under UK law. If you feel in danger of your life you may strike first and the police have no problem with that. Kicking someone on the ground however may be a problem if he wasn't getting up again. Kicking teeth in rarely causes severe concussion which I suggest may have been caused by the guy hitting his head on the ground when he went down the first time making it doubtful he was getting up as described making the kick in the teeth gratituious. Don't forget medical evidence would have been called. Defending yourself if one thing kicking a semi unconcious man on the ground in the face is another. Working out how fights happen and carry on gets easier after the first few hundred you've had to work on.

 

[profesormental]

Greetings.

In the last month, 2 incidents of armed robbers that have boon shot by store owners have occurred. Up to now, no prosecution. Both are near my school.

So we train hard and train in a way that can be defended in court if needed.

In a fight, I wouldn't worry about looking "Chunny" and using the WC "guard". I start from stances that assume no aggression, yet are "guards".

I use the guard to dictate what targets are vulnerable and not covered so that if the attacker throws a strike, I know where it's going.

Funny stance = awareness of upcoming beating or getting laughed at.

I like non of those alternatives.

In a court, it can also mean intent to do harm, which would suck for me.

Hope that helps.

 

[Rion]

My boss's neighbor's house got broken into the other week, these two guys climbed through the bedroom window masked and dragged him and his wife out of their bed, and started asking where the safe was.

Now my boss lives in a well to do street, with nice cars parked outside and you would be lead to believe that yes these sorts of homes must have safes in each and everyone of them but as my boss says, who has a safe now a days.

Anyway this guy was tied up and asked repeating where the safe was, as he didn't have one you can guess his answer. Not liking the sound of this, one of the attackers heated up his iron and placed it on his back, with third degree burns i can only hazard a guess at the look of surprise on these two goons face when told that, there was no safe.

Not believing what was being said, they must have heard this poor mans granddaughter in her room, dragging her they placed a knife to her face and asked the same question again.

Now i don't know what, scared them off but they left after that.

So when people say to me, only use reasonable force when met with aggression i cant take that advise to heart, mostly everyone on here is older than me and lot of you would say it's the ignorance of youth

but

9 times out of ten faced in situation like i mention above am looking to hurt you as much as i can and I'll deal with the problems that follow afterwards whatever they may be.

That's just me.

 

[jks9199]

It happened in England and all I can go on is what my mate told me and there's no reason why he would lie to me.
apparently, one of the blokes punched him in the head a couple of times and was lining up another one when my mate hit him,put on his backside and then kicked him in the face as he was getting back up to have another go. the other guy saw what happened to his friend and lost his bottle (funny how that happens eh?).Anyway, the guy who got kicked had a few teeth missing and a pretty bad concussion.
yeah, maybe you could say he shouldn't have kicked him when he went down but come on, this is the real world. if I hit someone who's attacking me and they go down and then try to get back up, you can bet your **** I'll kick them in the head. A lot of the time in these situations, the adrenaline is pumping so hard because of fear/anger and everything happens so fast that there's no time to think about stuff like "am I only using reasonable force here?". I worked on the doors in the UK and I've seen the damage a group of yobs will do to someone just for fun and there's no way I want to be on the receiving end of that kind of violence. if it was me, I'd do whatever it took and use whatever level of force it took until I felt sure the assault was over and I was safe. I'd worry about the consequences later, as I expect would most people. In the UK anyway.
maybe it's different in the US

Why wouldn't you friend tell the truth? I'll assume he did -- as he saw and remembered it. People routinely present their version of something in a way that's most favorable to them. What if something your friend did or said instigated the fight? What if as the guy was "getting up to have another go" in your friend's version -- witnesses report that the guy was saying some form of "I give... just let me get out of here!" Your friend may not have even heard him; look up auditory exclusion if you don't know why.

As to whether you're expected to assess the force you use as it goes -- you are. You have that obligation, especially after seeking training in fighting. In the US, you won't (normally- because each state is different and each judge can be a world unto themselves) be held to the same standard as a cop, but your response must be proportionate. As a police officer, I'm expected to scale up or down my response as the subjects behavior changes... As a trained martial artist, you also are expected to be able to change your reaction as the fight develops. I'm confident, because I have several friends who are cops in England, that English law is not so different.

 

[jks9199]

Y'know what -- and I'm guilty here, too! -- we're moving off topic. I'll happily take the discussion of proportional response, home invasion robberies, etc. over to General Self Defense, and we can pull this thread back on-topic.

 

[dungeonworks]

Sounds to me like English Law is similar to our Federal Law here in the USA. The part where things in the USA get sketchy is the intangible of each State's Law. Crime and punishment can really vary from state to state.

 

[dungeonworks]

What were we talking about again???

 

[matsu]

wing chun in a street fight lol.
remember the youtube clip???...... anyone??

so we are all amuch agreed that we adopt a posture/pose/guard/fence that deosnt look like we want to fight or are disinterested but one that can be quickly turned into our first counter or even attack if need be.

sifu always says we should hold our hands in a nervous wave saying i dont want to fight you.... but the face is saying..."bring it on i,m ready"..
.. that has happened to me i was saying one thing but facially signalling a very different intention. the guy looked confused and then almost hesitant after about 30 secs and then gobbed off saying he knew i was scared and he would see me later!...as he strolled off looking good to his mates.

anyone else got tips on facing down aggressors so that we dont have to make that first strike or attempt a counter??
matsu

 

[Tez3]

My boss's neighbor's house got broken into the other week, these two guys climbed through the bedroom window masked and dragged him and his wife out of their bed, and started asking where the safe was.

Now my boss lives in a well to do street, with nice cars parked outside and you would be lead to believe that yes these sorts of homes must have safes in each and everyone of them but as my boss says, who has a safe now a days.

Anyway this guy was tied up and asked repeating where the safe was, as he didn't have one you can guess his answer. Not liking the sound of this, one of the attackers heated up his iron and placed it on his back, with third degree burns i can only hazard a guess at the look of surprise on these two goons face when told that, there was no safe.

Not believing what was being said, they must have heard this poor mans granddaughter in her room, dragging her they placed a knife to her face and asked the same question again.

Now i don't know what, scared them off but they left after that.

So when people say to me, only use reasonable force when met with aggression i cant take that advise to heart, mostly everyone on here is older than me and lot of you would say it's the ignorance of youth

but

9 times out of ten faced in situation like i mention above am looking to hurt you as much as i can and I'll deal with the problems that follow afterwards whatever they may be.

That's just me.

Don't assume reasonable force is minimum force or that it means going easy on an attacker, it doesn't mean that at all. The law was changed a long while back from minimum to reasonable to allow for all circumstances.

Sorry if this is off subject though its important it's understood what force you can use. If as in the above case the attackers were killed by the householder thats reasonable, if you KO someone thats reasonable, it's not reasonable to torture them before killing them or to KO someone then stamp on his head and body while he's out cold. Know your laws properly.

 

[Rion]

I honestly hope that, anyone facing such matters would know when to stop, but i don't think anyone can honestly say how far someone would go to protect their loved ones.

Fear and anger clouds a lot of judgments.

 

[mograph]

Sorry if this is off subject though its important it's understood what force you can use. If as in the above case the attackers were killed by the householder thats reasonable, if you KO someone thats reasonable, it's not reasonable to torture them before killing them or to KO someone then stamp on his head and body while he's out cold. Know your laws properly.

Anger is the key, isn't it? If we are seasoned martial artists who have learned to control our anger, then we're less likely to use more force than is necessary or reasonable. If, however, we haven't yet learned to control the anger, we're more likely to give the creep a few extra hits just for good measure. I'm not a seasoned martial artist yet ... but I know when my anger could escalate things in the early stages, so I've learned to keep my mouth shut in matters of potential road rage, for example. But if someone threatened my wife, and I were able to do something about it, I really don't know what would happen.

 

[Tez3]

Anger is the key, isn't it? If we are seasoned martial artists who have learned to control our anger, then we're less likely to use more force than is necessary or reasonable. If, however, we haven't yet learned to control the anger, we're more likely to give the creep a few extra hits just for good measure. I'm not a seasoned martial artist yet ... but I know when my anger could escalate things in the early stages, so I've learned to keep my mouth shut in matters of potential road rage, for example. But if someone threatened my wife, and I were able to do something about it, I really don't know what would happen.

The problem with anger too is not that you will do the other guy too much damage but that you will lose the fight and end up badly hurt yourself, there's where the control of martial arts is most useful. You would be of no use to your wife if you went off the deep end and you were the one being knocked out. learning to defend yourself properly involves being aware of danger, knowing your options etc. All things one can train for and most of all keeping a calm head in circumstances that would normally have you lashing out/losing it. We must train to lose that red mist, the by product would be the use of 'reasonable' force but the main purpose is to enable us to survive the encounter.