Wing Chun and mma.

[DaveB]

Simultaneous attack and defense!

Ok, first of all, I train MMA with a white belt mentality. I work what I train there, and leave my existing skills at the door FOR THE MOST PART.

Tonight was sparring night, like every Thursday, but tonight was different. The Dutch kickboxing way of doing things, throwing, standing, moving, defending, etc is part of my muscle memory now. I don't need to think about how to move around attacks, where to step, when to throw, how to defend this or that. So anyway, I got into a good flow of light sparring with my usual partner, this beast of a man who has years and years in this style.

Anyway, tonight was different because Wing Chun started to happen. Not the usual fare of how I use it in the clinch, but at boxing range. Three times instead of the usual parry of the jab with my (southpaw) forward hand, I was able to come around it and clear it with a tansau from the outside in while shifting in with a stiff jab to the totally undefended outside line. No thought, just reaction. At full speed.

Progress.

It's all in the training.

As recently as a couple of weeks ago a karateka told me that blocks don't work. He apparently understood the real application of karate blocking.

Yet with a little practice in the right environment...

 

[DaveB]

Except there are arts that do kata and don't spar. There are arts that spar and don't do kata.

Maybe but their is nothing stopping them from doing either.
There is no karate style that does a 10 mile run or uses a speed ball, until they do.

The training is the art.

No, the training is how you develop the art. The fighting is the art. The ballet is the art. The swimming is the art. The picture is the art. There is no activity where the process of building the skill is considered the same as the skill it's self. A master carpenter may do extra training to be called such but if his table has 3 legs and one is short he won't get the title.

But OK let's say it isn't. Let's make an art a system of techniques that can be trained in any manner.

That's one aspect of a fighting art, arguably the least important one, but OK for argument's sake.

You still are going to have a list of techniques that are better than another list.

Better how? For what? For whom?

You might be right, but things are rarely that simple. For one thing if I spend 1000 hours training to perform a supposedly 2nd rate technique and another 1000 hours training to land it, so look as my training is efficient and effective the final result will imo have a negligible difference to the superior method. Even something that has tactical weaknesses like a grappling technique should be OK because your timing will be optimised and your understanding of the possible counters should be complete.

Again this is where efficiency comes in. Regardless of how you train. What you focus on. If you have an inefficient list you have to work harder to be successful.

Again, efficiency of what?

And by the way there really should be no fundamental difference between the benefits of kata for ring or kata for street. It will either help you fight. Or it won't.

I never mentioned any Street, I said training goals. Some people like kata for its meditative quality, some aim for perfect technique etc. Personally kata has expanded my tactical range, improved power generation and movement, balance etc and all when I had no partners to spar with.

Of course MMA does have its own study. They are called MMA fights. We can tell what systems are more efficient. Because they are more successful for a wider range of people.

And yes the point of MMA is to introduce better systems from other arts.

Except MMA also has dogma and almost everything that is in use now was considered useless at one point.

Not many people go to mma gyms and actually test a martial art. Lots test their training up to that point, but when they fail do they adjust their training and come back until they have a better understanding of their base art?
The people I've encountered usually get hit, get choked, get disillusioned (often due to over inflated egos to begin with) and then jump on the band wagon.

This thread is the first genuine study I've encountered outside my own. That being said I've yet to see what MD will do when stuff stops working for him.

 

[macher]

It's all in the training.

As recently as a couple of weeks ago a karateka told me that blocks don't work. He apparently understood the real application of karate blocking.

Yet with a little practice in the right environment...

From my experience ‘form’ works however many times it doesn’t work or even look like the form you’re applying in a formal sense. It’s the principle not the form per se. The only way you can experience this is sparring.

 

[Martial D]

This thread is the first genuine study I've encountered outside my own. That being said I've yet to see what MD will do when stuff stops working for him.

Find new stuff. Ajust.

There's been lots of that, believe you me. The way in which I execute the WC stuff I can make 'work' in an MMA environment is so different than the way I was taught it!

Eventually a whole new WC system may emerge from this.

 

[DaveB]

Find new stuff. Ajust.

There's been lots of that, believe you me. The way in which I execute the WC stuff I can make 'work' in an MMA environment is so different than the way I was taught it!

Eventually a whole new WC system may emerge from this.

I would suggest that if you are finding different expressions of the same ideas that you are doing the same art, just as it should be done.

Alan Orr does a great job of explaining the difference between the training of his art and the application.

 

[Martial D]

I would suggest that if you are finding different expressions of the same ideas that you are doing the same art, just as it should be done.

Alan Orr does a great job of explaining the difference between the training of his art and the application.

Maybe. I'm of two minds.

On the one hand, WC, like all fighting systems, is pretty useless if it can't be used for fighting..so it only makes sense to either abandon it or MAKE it work.

On the other hand, if what it takes to make it work ends up transforming it beyond any recognition, is it really the same style any longer?

For me it's a matter of context. Is the art the movements, or is the art the concepts and strategies behind the movements? I wouldn't hazard to assert either as the 'truth'. It is a matter of perspective.

I used to see it more in the light of the former, but now I would say it is the latter.

 

[drop bear]

Find new stuff. Ajust.

There's been lots of that, believe you me. The way in which I execute the WC stuff I can make 'work' in an MMA environment is so different than the way I was taught it!

Eventually a whole new WC system may emerge from this.

Yeah like trying to hand trap and to pressure fight at the same time?

Have you grappled with striking yet? One of the few times all that arm sensitivity works.

 

[Martial D]

Yeah like trying to hand trap and to pressure fight at the same time?

Have you grappled with striking yet? One of the few times all that arm sensitivity works.

Ya we do full sparring sessions on Thursday. I would concur with that.

But I already had WC from there before I started doing MMA. I'm working on expanding on that.

 

[drop bear]

Ya we do full sparring sessions on Thursday. I would concur with that.

But I already had WC from there before I started doing MMA. I'm working on expanding on that.

Yeah it is one of the few times i do anything like chi sau. Is just to suff that free arm in the grapple.

Hand fighting and such.

 

[DaveB]

Maybe. I'm of two minds.

On the one hand, WC, like all fighting systems, is pretty useless if it can't be used for fighting..so it only makes sense to either abandon it or MAKE it work.

On the other hand, if what it takes to make it work ends up transforming it beyond any recognition, is it really the same style any longer?

For me it's a matter of context. Is the art the movements, or is the art the concepts and strategies behind the movements? I wouldn't hazard to assert either as the 'truth'. It is a matter of perspective.

I used to see it more in the light of the former, but now I would say it is the latter.

It is definitely the latter.
Part of it is the culture these arts came from. I'm no expert but I have been told it is just a different way of understanding growth and development.

Also forms were a necessary transmission tool both in terms of training and instruction, but in terms of security and keeping your knowledge out of enemy hands.

Forms are intended to be discarded once their lessons are ingrained. (Forms as in both preconstricted sequences and as in the rigid formal technical methods taught in class).

Fighting is wild and dynamic and emotional but most of all it is life and death. This is something lost in the sporting/cultish tradion mentalities. If your life is on the line, why would you not weave your head out of the way of the incoming punch or make a more acute angle with your tan sau. You are supposed to do what you need to to win, and usually understanding the principles of an art, that message comes through loud and clear.

 

[macher]

It is definitely the latter.
Part of it is the culture these arts came from. I'm no expert but I have been told it is just a different way of understanding growth and development.

Also forms were a necessary transmission tool both in terms of training and instruction, but in terms of security and keeping your knowledge out of enemy hands.

Forms are intended to be discarded once their lessons are ingrained. (Forms as in both preconstricted sequences and as in the rigid formal technical methods taught in class).

Fighting is wild and dynamic and emotional but most of all it is life and death. This is something lost in the sporting/cultish tradion mentalities. If your life is on the line, why would you not weave your head out of the way of the incoming punch or make a more acute angle with your tan sau. You are supposed to do what you need to to win, and usually understanding the principles of an art, that message comes through loud and clear.

When these CMA were created / developed I suppose they weren’t taught as form based but fighting based which means immediate application of the form / technique. Maybe close to the same way I was taught Bagua years ago. We spent most of the time with application and the principle behind the form and when we soared against other arts and especially boxers people would say that doesn’t look like Bagua. Maybe it didn’t but the principal was there.

 

[drop bear]

It is definitely the latter.
Part of it is the culture these arts came from. I'm no expert but I have been told it is just a different way of understanding growth and development.

Also forms were a necessary transmission tool both in terms of training and instruction, but in terms of security and keeping your knowledge out of enemy hands.

Forms are intended to be discarded once their lessons are ingrained. (Forms as in both preconstricted sequences and as in the rigid formal technical methods taught in class).

Fighting is wild and dynamic and emotional but most of all it is life and death. This is something lost in the sporting/cultish tradion mentalities. If your life is on the line, why would you not weave your head out of the way of the incoming punch or make a more acute angle with your tan sau. You are supposed to do what you need to to win, and usually understanding the principles of an art, that message comes through loud and clear.

Yeah people say life or death. But i still belive i will have most life or death fighters bitching out halfway in to a round.

 

[Martial D]

Yeah people say life or death. But i still belive i will have most life or death fighters bitching out halfway in to a round.

It's true in my experience. Most of the traditional martial artists I know aren't super athletic.

 

[drop bear]

It's true in my experience. Most of the traditional martial artists I know aren't super athletic.

Athleticism has a lot to do with willpower. Knowing what you can push through.

Which is trained to an extent.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

It's true in my experience. Most of the traditional martial artists I know aren't super athletic.

3 months before my last tournament, I tried to move a big rock from one side of my drive way to the other side. During the tournament, I knew I was the strongest guy there.

Rogue Fitness

 

[DaveB]

Yeah people say life or death. But i still belive i will have most life or death fighters bitching out halfway in to a round.

...and I'm sure it drags along the floor when you walk too.

My comment was about the intent behind the teaching methods of pre-20th century Chinese martial arts. Not any particular ideology of modern ma schools.

The point was that Forms were created with the flexibility to be adaptive to the needs of combat, baked into their dna

 

[Martial D]

Athleticism has a lot to do with willpower. Knowing what you can push through.

Which is trained to an extent.

Sure, but what you can push through goes through the roof when you train for the specific activity you'll be pushing though. This is true not just of fighting, but any sort of physical activity that might be demanding.

Eventually you get used to things, can compensate for brute force with structure and techniques, and can just do it longer, both because you are better at it and because your body is more fit for it, due to muscle memory etc…

Athleticism is generally good around the board, but is usually specifically tuned to certain types of activities.

 

[drop bear]

...and I'm sure it drags along the floor when you walk too.

My comment was about the intent behind the teaching methods of pre-20th century Chinese martial arts. Not any particular ideology of modern ma schools.

The point was that Forms were created with the flexibility to be adaptive to the needs of combat, baked into their dna

I'm Jake the Peg, diddle-iddle-iddle-um

There is a saying here that applies.

If you think you are going to stand up under pressure because you went in to that situation with some sort of intent. You are mistaken. Just saying life or death quite simply doesn't count for anything.

 

[drop bear]

Sure, but what you can push through goes through the roof when you train for the specific activity you'll be pushing though. This is true not just of fighting, but any sort of physical activity that might be demanding.

Eventually you get used to things, can compensate for brute force with structure and techniques, and can just do it longer, both because you are better at it and because your body is more fit for it, due to muscle memory etc…

Athleticism is generally good around the board, but is usually specifically tuned to certain types of activities.

Mentally you will tend to quit less as well. If you know that while whatever activity sucks. You have felt that before and overcome it. Rather than hitting that point and looking for a way to give up.

Sports is a falure game. You learn a sport, You suck at it, You fail.

Then you keep doing it untill you succeed.

There is a mental hardening process that allows you to cope with constant falure. The idea being at some undetermined point in the future you will stop failing. And it will suck less.

If you have been conditioned to constantly succeed, when you fail you will not be prepared for the mental attack and chances are go to jelly.

So yes athleticism holds that point of for longer but hard training that creates that athleticism also helps you push through that point.

 

[DaveB]

I'm Jake the Peg, diddle-iddle-iddle-um

There is a saying here that applies.

If you think you are going to stand up under pressure because you went in to that situation with some sort of intent. You are mistaken. Just saying life or death quite simply doesn't count for anything.

Way to latch onto a phrase and ignore the context.