Wing Chun Vs MMA .... Why So Serious?

[Steve]

Do you mean sparring or actually "I'm trying to kill you" fighting? Sparring, yes. Have I used wing chun in a fight? no. Have I used boxing and jdk in a fight.. yes.. against a wrestler and his hands never made contact long enough to take me down. I'm not competing, nor am I training for a competitive sport. I'm training for real life situations and to be able to call upon it when I need it. I am also training for the enlightenment of learning different arts and applications of how their principles apply to life. So in all, I'm not merely learning a combat art to fight, where i'm from most people do not fight; they shoot. All the martial arts in the world won't stand against an automatic weapon. I am learning for the principles, the knowledge, the experience, combat, and because I love it.

You tell me. You said its a combat art for fighting. Not me. How is it a combat art for fighting if there's no combat or fighting?

Or maybe it isn't a combat art for fighting, but is instead an art for learning principles and knowledge.


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[Argus]

You tell me. You said its a combat art for fighting. Not me. How is it a combat art for fighting if there's no combat or fighting?

Or maybe it isn't a combat art for fighting, but is instead an art for learning principles and knowledge.


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Research "Beimo", and "Wong Shun Leung"

Unfortunately (or fortunately, depending on your view), not many people these days have the chance to test their art under such circumstances, so the understanding of "combat" is increasingly limited just to theory and sport. So while there is a distinct difference between combat and sport, I doubt that practitioners of either type of art have a much better understanding of the former.

 

[StormShadow]

You tell me. You said its a combat art for fighting. Not me. How is it a combat art for fighting if there's no combat or fighting?

Or maybe it isn't a combat art for fighting, but is instead an art for learning principles and knowledge.


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At this point, I am not even sure if you know what your premise is exactly. What are you questioning? Do I go out in the street and pick fights with people to test my wing chun? Haha... Please tell me what you are trying to arrive at.

 

[mysurvive]

At this point, I am not even sure if you know what your premise is exactly. What are you questioning? Do I go out in the street and pick fights with people to test my wing chun? Haha... Please tell me what you are trying to arrive at.

I agree with storm, it seems like you just came in here to stir up the pot and that no answer would be the right answer... why?

 

[Cyriacus]

Now, im not trying to speak on anyones behalf, but i believe Steve was questioning how Storm defines a combat art, since thats what he called it. With the intent of seeing, well, how he defines it so we know what hes talking about.

If that *isnt* what Steve meant, id like to know anyway.

 

[Steve]

At this point, I am not even sure if you know what your premise is exactly. What are you questioning? Do I go out in the street and pick fights with people to test my wing chun? Haha... Please tell me what you are trying to arrive at.

Just trying to understand what you're getting at. You said, "people do not seem to understand the difference between a combat sport and a combat art for actual fighting." I'll admit that I'm one of those people. At least, when you put it like that, I'm not so sure I understand what you mean.

So, explain it to me. I train in a combat sport, I think. You, I gather, train in a "combat art for actual fighting." Not trying to put words in your mouth, but that's the impression I'm getting based on what you said. With me so far? I hope so.

Now, I'm not suggesting that you go out and pick fights. I'm suggesting that your art might not be "for actual fighting" if you aren't actually fighting. It could be that your art is really for something else. And frankly, either way, I'm trying to figure out how much thought you've put into this, because the distinction between combat "arts" and combat "sports" is muddy at best, and no nearly as clean and clear as was implied by the simple phrase I quoted above.

So, the question I'm getting at here is this. Combat sports are to competition as combat arts are to... what? You said fighting. So, people in a combat sport compete. Isn't it reasonable to presume that you are fighting? Or conversely, if you aren't fighting, perhaps your statement that you are training in a combat art for actual fighting was mistaken.

What do you think?

Edit: If this is off topic, guys, let me know. I figured in a thread on Wing Chun vs MMA, it might be an okay time for me to hash this out.

 

[Steve]

Now, im not trying to speak on anyones behalf, but i believe Steve was questioning how Storm defines a combat art, since thats what he called it. With the intent of seeing, well, how he defines it so we know what hes talking about.

If that *isnt* what Steve meant, id like to know anyway.

Pretty much. Hope I cleared it up a little in the previous post.

 

[RTKDCMB]

Every where I turn on youtube, if the video is martial arts related, there are videos of mma guys bashing wing chun. It seems to be more venom pointed towards wing chun from mma dudes than most other Chinese martial arts. I am trying to figure out the reason why. We get wing chun doesn't translate to the octagon . Practitioners don't train for the octogon, they train for multiple attackers, knives and so fourth. MMA guys don't seem to grasp this.

It comes from 2 places: ignorance and ego - Here is an example of a comment I saw a while back. "Belts, who cares about belts. Take someone who has trained way harder say a 10th Dan in Wing Chun or an 8th Dan in Taekwondo and put them in the ring with a 2 year veteran of MMA and both of these masters would lose without effert". Those were pretty much his exact words including the word effert.

 

[yak sao]

Who is Effert?

 

[StormShadow]

Just trying to understand what you're getting at. You said, "people do not seem to understand the difference between a combat sport and a combat art for actual fighting." I'll admit that I'm one of those people. At least, when you put it like that, I'm not so sure I understand what you mean.

So, explain it to me. I train in a combat sport, I think. You, I gather, train in a "combat art for actual fighting." Not trying to put words in your mouth, but that's the impression I'm getting based on what you said. With me so far? I hope so.

Now, I'm not suggesting that you go out and pick fights. I'm suggesting that your art might not be "for actual fighting" if you aren't actually fighting. It could be that your art is really for something else. And frankly, either way, I'm trying to figure out how much thought you've put into this, because the distinction between combat "arts" and combat "sports" is muddy at best, and no nearly as clean and clear as was implied by the simple phrase I quoted above.

So, the question I'm getting at here is this. Combat sports are to competition as combat arts are to... what? You said fighting. So, people in a combat sport compete. Isn't it reasonable to presume that you are fighting? Or conversely, if you aren't fighting, perhaps your statement that you are training in a combat art for actual fighting was mistaken.

What do you think?

Edit: If this is off topic, guys, let me know. I figured in a thread on Wing Chun vs MMA, it might be an okay time for me to hash this out.

Oh ok.. Well it's simple to me. Combat sport- fighting with rules. certain techniques not allowed, lowering the possibility of death or severe injury. Combat art/combat for street fighting- trying to end the fight as quickly as possible. No rules, all strikes are in play, you kill if you have too or if the fight ends in that result. Trying to break legs, arms, necks ect as fast as possible. Hindering the fighter from continuing and doing so quickly. Trying to cause severe pain as fast as possible. So yes, some of the techniques I cannot truly apply as I would like as I would wind up in jail. Of course this can also be said for other arts such as muy thai or boran muy thai which has been watered down for mma use. A sport is monitored by a body. Real combat is not.

 

[StormShadow]

It comes from 2 places: ignorance and ego - Here is an example of a comment I saw a while back. "Belts, who cares about belts. Take someone who has trained way harder say a 10th Dan in Wing Chun or an 8th Dan in Taekwondo and put them in the ring with a 2 year veteran of MMA and both of these masters would lose without effert". Those were pretty much his exact words including the word effert.

The biggest claim to fame mma guys have ( and I do like mma by the way) is bjj and/or wrestling. Ground fighting made mma what it is now. A large percentage of mma fights go to the ground. A choke, or arm bar and a tap out. MMA fans and some mma athletes disrespect other martial arts alot. Walking in the octagon and blowing up someone's knee or shin is not good for business, thus not allowed in mma. In a place with rules you must play by them which changes your training. So any pure martial artists in any one style may not come out on top because of this. The same is not true when there are no rules. I believe this is the misconception.

 

[mysurvive]

Just trying to understand what you're getting at. You said, "people do not seem to understand the difference between a combat sport and a combat art for actual fighting." I'll admit that I'm one of those people. At least, when you put it like that, I'm not so sure I understand what you mean.

So, explain it to me. I train in a combat sport, I think. You, I gather, train in a "combat art for actual fighting." Not trying to put words in your mouth, but that's the impression I'm getting based on what you said. With me so far? I hope so.

Now, I'm not suggesting that you go out and pick fights. I'm suggesting that your art might not be "for actual fighting" if you aren't actually fighting. It could be that your art is really for something else. And frankly, either way, I'm trying to figure out how much thought you've put into this, because the distinction between combat "arts" and combat "sports" is muddy at best, and no nearly as clean and clear as was implied by the simple phrase I quoted above.

So, the question I'm getting at here is this. Combat sports are to competition as combat arts are to... what? You said fighting. So, people in a combat sport compete. Isn't it reasonable to presume that you are fighting? Or conversely, if you aren't fighting, perhaps your statement that you are training in a combat art for actual fighting was mistaken.

What do you think?

Edit: If this is off topic, guys, let me know. I figured in a thread on Wing Chun vs MMA, it might be an okay time for me to hash this out.

I'm sorry, it just seemed like you were leading storm around in circles to try to get the answer you wanted... at least that's how your posts read.

I'm also very new to WC, but here's my take:

MMA is an effective fighting style that is made specifically for the sport of fighting in the arena. Yes, you will learn arm bars that can break and seriously hurt someone, but all in all the point of MMA is to have the other person give up before you do.

WC on the other hand, was created as a way of protection hundreds of years ago and the point of it is to completely destroy an enemy whether that be kill, maim, or otherwise.

I'm not saying that one is better than another, I'm simply stating what I see as a difference between a combat style and a sport. maybe those arent' good words to describe them, but it's what first comes to mind.

 

[Steve]

Oh ok.. Well it's simple to me. Combat sport- fighting with rules. certain techniques not allowed, lowering the possibility of death or severe injury. Combat art/combat for street fighting- trying to end the fight as quickly as possible. No rules, all strikes are in play, you kill if you have too or if the fight ends in that result. Trying to break legs, arms, necks ect as fast as possible. Hindering the fighter from continuing and doing so quickly. Trying to cause severe pain as fast as possible. So yes, some of the techniques I cannot truly apply as I would like as I would wind up in jail. Of course this can also be said for other arts such as muy thai or boran muy thai which has been watered down for mma use. A sport is monitored by a body. Real combat is not.

Okay. Sounds fair. So, no rules. What does that look like to you? Have you ever engaged someone else with no rules? Even once? How long does it take to break someone's arm, leg or neck? Do you know? I'm pretty sure I know how long it would take me to break a person's arm, but that's largely because I use the techniques all the time.

Here's another question for you. If you think that the techniques used in sports are watered down, what would you call techniques that are trained but never used? Isn't that also watered down? Maybe even more watered down?

 

[Steve]

I'm sorry, it just seemed like you were leading storm around in circles to try to get the answer you wanted... at least that's how your posts read.

I'm also very new to WC, but here's my take:

MMA is an effective fighting style that is made specifically for the sport of fighting in the arena. Yes, you will learn arm bars that can break and seriously hurt someone, but all in all the point of MMA is to have the other person give up before you do.

WC on the other hand, was created as a way of protection hundreds of years ago and the point of it is to completely destroy an enemy whether that be kill, maim, or otherwise.

I'm not saying that one is better than another, I'm simply stating what I see as a difference between a combat style and a sport. maybe those arent' good words to describe them, but it's what first comes to mind.

Right. I get that, and appreciate the response. I'm just asking questions. Killing and maiming is serious stuff.

 

[StormShadow]

Okay. Sounds fair. So, no rules. What does that look like to you? Have you ever engaged someone else with no rules? Even once? How long does it take to break someone's arm, leg or neck? Do you know? I'm pretty sure I know how long it would take me to break a person's arm, but that's largely because I use the techniques all the time.

Here's another question for you. If you think that the techniques used in sports are watered down, what would you call techniques that are trained but never used? Isn't that also watered down? Maybe even more watered down?

I'm not saying techniques are watered down but the particular art would be sense you are detracting from it to fit into a frame of a sport. Engaging someone with no rules is a regular fight, yes I've been in a few of those. I fail to see what that has to do with anything. I think you believe I am attempting to bash mma, which is not the case.

 

[StormShadow]

Right. I get that, and appreciate the response. I'm just asking questions. Killing and maiming is serious stuff.

I get it that you are likely being facetious in your response but what he is saying is that the techniques are meant to end a fight quickly. When it is the appropriate time for attack, I would be trying to injure horrifically. That's what wing chun was meant for. To end the fight as quickly and efficiently as possible. This is what I believe survive is saying.

 

[Cyriacus]

Ill just offhandly comment that no-rules techniques tend to be the same as rules techniques, just used in a different way. Drawing a distinction between the physical movements and the objective behind them is important.

 

[mook jong man]

Okay. Sounds fair. So, no rules. What does that look like to you? Have you ever engaged someone else with no rules? Even once? How long does it take to break someone's arm, leg or neck? Do you know? I'm pretty sure I know how long it would take me to break a person's arm, but that's largely because I use the techniques all the time.

Here's another question for you. If you think that the techniques used in sports are watered down, what would you call techniques that are trained but never used? Isn't that also watered down? Maybe even more watered down?

But the techniques are used , they just don't get used at full power on a live human being.

They get used on one of these , you can't hurt the Mook Jong , you can't kill it , it doesn't get tired and it never has to stop training to go home to it's wife and kids.

 

[Argus]

Steve,

I don't know much about BJJ, but I thought the gracie brothers made some interesting comments on this subject:

There are so many things that are taken for granted in a sport. You're fighting for points. You're fighting in a ring. You'll only be fighting one opponent. You'll be fighting on a mat. You and your opponent will be (or will not be) wearing certain clothes. You won't be wearing shoes. Strikers will be wearing gloves. There will be rules about how and where you can attack; usually you can't attack targets such as the neck, groin, eyes, or spine - often, you cannot kick a downed opponent, or you may not even be able to strike at all. You will be fighting opponents of a certain nature, of a certain culture. If you're in an MMA context, your opponents are going to be concerned with one thing; fighting and winning. They will be popular, professional fighters. They usually will be big, buff guys who wax their chests, arms, and legs, wear tattoos, fight in their underwear, and train simple and effective arts not for the sake of the art, but simply as a quick and effective method of learning to win the game against other very similar opponents with the same goals and methods. And if you want to be popular and successful in that particular sport, you have to fit the culture and fit the game.

Generally, these games are set-up to prolong combat and make it interesting and entertaining to watch, and fun to participate in. The participants aren't trying to kill or seriously injure one another. They will start square off, in a very controlled environment, proceed with care and feel eachother out, and engage in a physical duel. This is in contrast to a serious fight, in which two opponents close very quickly and very violently. A brief, violent and vigorous exchange of blows, and one party or the other goes down. There is no feeling out your opponent. There are no rules or equipment to prolong the fight and make it safe in any way, and there is nothing that can be taken for granted; weapons, multiple opponents, shoes, bare knuckles, low kicks, pavement and concrete. The very, very specific set of circumstances that you train for in competition become irrelevant, and in many cases, if you think like you do in a competition, you will be in trouble.

Or so the story goes. But like most martial artists, I have no actual experience with actual fighting, so it's all just theory! However, I choose to put stock in the views and accounts of certain practitioners who had their arts tested in self-defense and skill comparison fights of the mid 20th century.

 

[RTKDCMB]

Who is Effert?

He meant to say effort but wrote effert instead.