Wing Chun and mma.

[Poppity]

My sifu told me that the forms were used as memory aids to convey the knowledge of the arts as most of the people learning CMA 200-500 years ago were completely illiterate, and so it was an easy way to pack the principles for travel for passing them on in the future. I think that it is often easy to take for granted how easy the internet and video has made the transmission of information and to forget the only way people used to be able to pass the knowledge on was person to person with the teacher using the forms to remind themselves of the principles.

although I think the forms should not be considered any more than this, I have also been taught that as the forms were created there was a very thought through reason for the sequence of the sets and the ordered movements in each set.

I think there seems to be general consensus that the principles behind the forms and techniques are where the useful application is, but there is disagreement on the best way to unlock those principles for effective application.

I think athleticism has its place but it is not the be all and end all. Athleticism can enhance your skilled ability but it cannot replace it. There is a guy 10 years my junior whom I spa with and the fact that he smokes and does more weights than cardio becomes apparent in the accuracy, implementation and strength of his blocks and attacks after about 3 minutes.

 

[Martial D]

My sifu told me that the forms were used as memory aids to convey the knowledge of the arts as most of the people learning CMA 200-500 years ago were completely illiterate, and so it was an easy way to pack the principles for travel for passing them on in the future. I think that it is often easy to take for granted how easy the internet and video has made the transmission of information and to forget the only way people used to be able to pass the knowledge on was person to person with the teacher using the forms to remind themselves of the principles.

although I think the forms should not be considered any more than this, I have also been taught that as the forms were created there was a very thought through reason for the sequence of the sets and the ordered movements in each set.

I think there seems to be general consensus that the principles behind the forms and techniques are where the useful application is, but there is disagreement on the best way to unlock those principles for effective application.

I think athleticism has its place but it is not the be all and end all. Athleticism can enhance your skilled ability but it cannot replace it. There is a guy 10 years my junior whom I spa with and the fact that he smokes and does more weights than cardio becomes apparent in the accuracy, implementation and strength of his blocks and attacks after about 3 minutes.

Sure but it doesn't matter how well you know your forms if you are fat and out of shape, or a heavy smoker etc. If the fight goes over 30 seconds you are going to need some cardio.

 

[Poppity]

I agree.

Not having cardio or strength training and only good form and technique means that you will most probably only be able to easily dominate a person who does not know what they are doing or has very limited experience in fighting, but you will probably dominate them even if that opponent has good strength and cardio.

I don't think its outrageous to say most martial artists, mixed or traditional could easily knock out a long distance or short distance sprinter, despite the sprinter having a better level of fitness, just because the sprinter does not practice striking or defending strikes to the head.

But if people are comparing the effectiveness of two competent martial artists, strength and fitness training adds another undeniable beneficial layer of skill and strategy. Can you outlast the opponent's endurance till they get sloppy? or is your fitness lacking so you will have to try and win the fight quickly, and if so, is your skill and technique up to it or is it a gamble?

but this is all common sense.

 

[Martial D]

I agree.

Not having cardio or strength training and only good form and technique means that you will most probably only be able to easily dominate a person who does not know what they are doing or has very limited experience in fighting, but you will probably dominate them even if that opponent has good strength and cardio.

I don't think its outrageous to say most martial artists, mixed or traditional could easily knock out a long distance or short distance sprinter, despite the sprinter having a better level of fitness, just because the sprinter does not practice striking or defending strikes to the head.

But if people are comparing the effectiveness of two competent martial artists, strength and fitness training adds another undeniable beneficial layer of skill and strategy. Can you outlast the opponent's endurance till they get sloppy? or is your fitness lacking so you will have to try and win the fight quickly, and if so, is your skill and technique up to it or is it a gamble?

but this is all common sense.

I dunno. To an extent. Could an out of shape TMA guy beat someone that is athletic but untrained? Maybe, maybe not. Many TMA guys don't hit or get hit, nor train their blocks and defenses against attacks meant to actually hit them. Athletic guy 9/10 times.

If the out of shape guy has trained realistically, but fallen out of shape? 50/50.

 

[Monkey Turned Wolf]

I dunno. To an extent. Could an out of shape TMA guy beat someone that is athletic but untrained? Maybe, maybe not. Many TMA guys don't hit or get hit, nor train their blocks and defenses against attacks meant to actually hit them. Athletic guy 9/10 times.

If the out of shape guy has trained realistically, but fallen out of shape? 50/50.

I think this also depends on the build of both. I'm 5/7, around 140 pounds. When I stop working out, I go down to 110 (don't get fat but lose muscle). I train realistically, but at 110, if you're having me go against a body builder, and I don't have a knife or pen handy, I wouldn't bet on myself. When I'm in shape, my cardio's also good, my punches pact a lot more power, I would have a much better shot.

 

[Martial D]

I think this also depends on the build of both. I'm 5/7, around 140 pounds. When I stop working out, I go down to 110 (don't get fat but lose muscle). I train realistically, but at 110, if you're having me go against a body builder, and I don't have a knife or pen handy, I wouldn't bet on myself. When I'm in shape, my cardio's also good, my punches pact a lot more power, I would have a much better shot.

Yes, 100%

In the back of my mind when I wrote that, I was assuming 'all else equal', but I didn't write it down lol.

Size and strength are definitely a (huge) factor.

 

[Poppity]

I appreciate that I may be in the minority here but I can't help but feel the term TMA has been recently subverted a bit. It now seems to be used to describe any Tai Chi style art (hopefully this won't offend any Tai Chi practitioners), but principally an art which consists mainly of form work and drills but no actual pressurised hands on application. Sum Nung, Ip Man, Fung Sang all have stories about actual fights as do many of their students. Fighting traditionally seemed to be considered part and parcel of learning the arts and was cited as a way of being proficient.

Not using a "martial" art to spa/fight seems to be a recent phenomena, under the commented guise that its a more traditional way to practice... which makes me wonder what people think all these previous "traditional" practitioners of the arts were doing as It's quite difficult to get into a fight against people who aren't drunk.

I appreciate that someone will say these are just stories and there is no proof of the fights, but the same is true for many events in a history book.

I consider the style I learn to be traditional, it has aspects of Buddhism, Confucianism and Taoism in its terminology, but we also spa hard.

...I am making the comments of people dominating fights on the basis that without practice, in a sparring environment, it is difficult to keep up with someone with good footwork, to predict the opponent's moves to effectively react to the attacks from different directions and it is easy to panic, to over reach, to react to a feint and leave yourself open. Sure if a bodybuilder grabs you and you don't react/counter its going to hurt, but if a bodybuilder can grab you without you countering... anyone can.

 

[drop bear]

My sifu told me that the forms were used as memory aids to convey the knowledge of the arts as most of the people learning CMA 200-500 years ago were completely illiterate, and so it was an easy way to pack the principles for travel for passing them on in the future. I think that it is often easy to take for granted how easy the internet and video has made the transmission of information and to forget the only way people used to be able to pass the knowledge on was person to person with the teacher using the forms to remind themselves of the principles.

although I think the forms should not be considered any more than this, I have also been taught that as the forms were created there was a very thought through reason for the sequence of the sets and the ordered movements in each set.

I think there seems to be general consensus that the principles behind the forms and techniques are where the useful application is, but there is disagreement on the best way to unlock those principles for effective application.

I think athleticism has its place but it is not the be all and end all. Athleticism can enhance your skilled ability but it cannot replace it. There is a guy 10 years my junior whom I spa with and the fact that he smokes and does more weights than cardio becomes apparent in the accuracy, implementation and strength of his blocks and attacks after about 3 minutes.

I relate kata to about the same as tricking. (Which is the other thread.) It is not neccesarily transported directly into a fight. But it trains some basic mechanics that are needed in a fight.

Of course tricking is harder needs a bit more timing and requires better body control and will probably transport these mechanics a bit better.

 

[drop bear]

I agree.

Not having cardio or strength training and only good form and technique means that you will most probably only be able to easily dominate a person who does not know what they are doing or has very limited experience in fighting, but you will probably dominate them even if that opponent has good strength and cardio.

I don't think its outrageous to say most martial artists, mixed or traditional could easily knock out a long distance or short distance sprinter, despite the sprinter having a better level of fitness, just because the sprinter does not practice striking or defending strikes to the head.

But if people are comparing the effectiveness of two competent martial artists, strength and fitness training adds another undeniable beneficial layer of skill and strategy. Can you outlast the opponent's endurance till they get sloppy? or is your fitness lacking so you will have to try and win the fight quickly, and if so, is your skill and technique up to it or is it a gamble?

but this is all common sense.

I jits with a former elite sprinter. And can defeat his athleticism most of the time.

But I train with athletic guys. And there is a different mechanic to fighting them.

 

[Poppity]

I relate kata to about the same as tricking. (Which is the other thread.) It is not neccesarily transported directly into a fight. But it trains some basic mechanics that are needed in a fight.

Of course tricking is harder needs a bit more timing and requires better body control and will probably transport these mechanics a bit better.

hey, could you direct me to the other thread, so I can have a read. Thanks!

 

[Poppity]

I jits with a former elite sprinter. And can defeat his athleticism most of the time.

But I train with athletic guys. And there is a different mechanic to fighting them.

How do you mean athletic, strength and fitness?.. and what mechanic do you use?

 

[drop bear]

How do you mean athletic, strength and fitness?.. and what mechanic do you use?

Yeah look I do MMA and that attracts fit strong guys ot creates them. One of the mechanic changes As an example is that a move doesn't happen in one go.

Lets look at side control escape.
If you get a floppy compliant partner. You just hit that move in one go and it works.

Then you get a guy who is in for a dog fight. You hit that escape and you get an inch. Then have to fight for another inch and so on. It is a different technique.

Martial arts technique doesnt look like this sort of fight, gain, grind, repeat. Until the guys you train with really want to put pressure on you.

So you are hitting different priorities.

 

[Poppity]

Yeah look I do MMA and that attracts fit strong guys ot creates them. One of the mechanic changes As an example is that a move doesn't happen in one go.

Lets look at side control escape.
If you get a floppy compliant partner. You just hit that move in one go and it works.

Then you get a guy who is in for a dog fight. You hit that escape and you get an inch. Then have to fight for another inch and so on. It is a different technique.

Martial arts technique doesnt look like this sort of fight, gain, grind, repeat. Until the guys you train with really want to put pressure on you.

So you are hitting different priorities.

Thanks for the video, it looks like a good BJJ/grappling exchange. I am assuming this school specialises in this as opposed to the striking and kicking ranges, due to the lack of headgear and gloves and the way they both just dropped to ground.

I absolutely agree that a lot of grappling and ground work is all about strength and endurance and shrimping your body/arms into position, but it is just one range of fighting... and I honestly think that if I relied on this range in my local I would be immediately kicked in the head by the guys mates. Though it is clearly a good technique for one on one.

The good TMA fights I have seen, resemble kick-boxing or boxing where footwork and angling is a key element, It is sadly missing from nearly all wing chun fights I have seen on youtube... I think old school wing chun probably used to resemble the 19th century boxing fights before the 1743 Broughton rules, all those old timer boxers are even standing in a similar pose to the man sau stance, but you can guarantee they would not have just stayed static in that pose, waiting to get hit,

...So, I get the gripe a lot of people have regarding TMAs... TMAs have been around a long time and there is a tendency for all things which have been around for a long time to become sanitised and overanalysed... whether a bong is at the "correct" angle becomes more important rather than whether it consistently works, and you have drills which will only ever work if the opponent applies in the exact manner you have trained to react to it. ...but there is a lot of detail in there, just below the surface, if you apply a bit of pressure.

but even with MMA, and MMA is the newcomer to the party... sure it is good to watch now, but as more rules are brought in and it becomes more heavily regulated, it will inevitably become more like boxing or competitive Karate, safer and often decided on the points... and then the martial aspect becomes questionable.. is MMA training for self-defence or a sport. 200 years from now what will MMA look like, my bet is on it being more heavily regulated towards an entertaining spectacle rather than more stripped back to where the most effective techniques for disabling and maiming are improved... and then people learning MMA will no doubt find there is a lot of detail in the MMAs, just below the surface, if you apply a bit of pressure.

 

[drop bear]

Thanks for the video, it looks like a good BJJ/grappling exchange. I am assuming this school specialises in this as opposed to the striking and kicking ranges, due to the lack of headgear and gloves and the way they both just dropped to ground.

I absolutely agree that a lot of grappling and ground work is all about strength and endurance and shrimping your body/arms into position, but it is just one range of fighting... and I honestly think that if I relied on this range in my local I would be immediately kicked in the head by the guys mates. Though it is clearly a good technique for one on one.

The good TMA fights I have seen, resemble kick-boxing or boxing where footwork and angling is a key element, It is sadly missing from nearly all wing chun fights I have seen on youtube... I think old school wing chun probably used to resemble the 19th century boxing fights before the 1743 Broughton rules, all those old timer boxers are even standing in a similar pose to the man sau stance, but you can guarantee they would not have just stayed static in that pose, waiting to get hit,

...So, I get the gripe a lot of people have regarding TMAs... TMAs have been around a long time and there is a tendency for all things which have been around for a long time to become sanitised and overanalysed... whether a bong is at the "correct" angle becomes more important rather than whether it consistently works, and you have drills which will only ever work if the opponent applies in the exact manner you have trained to react to it. ...but there is a lot of detail in there, just below the surface, if you apply a bit of pressure.

but even with MMA, and MMA is the newcomer to the party... sure it is good to watch now, but as more rules are brought in and it becomes more heavily regulated, it will inevitably become more like boxing or competitive Karate, safer and often decided on the points... and then the martial aspect becomes questionable.. is MMA training for self-defence or a sport. 200 years from now what will MMA look like, my bet is on it being more heavily regulated towards an entertaining spectacle rather than more stripped back to where the most effective techniques for disabling and maiming are improved... and then people learning MMA will no doubt find there is a lot of detail in the MMAs, just below the surface, if you apply a bit of pressure.

Have you seen a street fight where there are no rules?

Next time you do look for two things.

How many people are maimed and disabled.

And what did they actually get maimed by technique wise.

 

[Poppity]

Me and anyone who has been out drinking has seen street fights with no rules, they are not rare.

On nights out with friends or old girlfriends I have been headbutted, clocked in the jaw, had a pint glass thrown and hit my head etc. I have also ran my mouth off and had a few guys start on me mainly because drunk people are aggressive and I can be irritating.

The last time I saw two guys fight and get badly maimed was at the end of a night in a fast food shop when one tried to push another guy who was resisting to the floor and they both went through the window. Someone called an ambulance.

Not once have I seen anyone drop to the floor to wrestle in an actual street fight. I have seen it in plenty of sports, but never in a fight where one of the participants was not sure how far the other person and their friends would go.

So let me ask you, if you were on your own, waiting for friends and three guys came up who you didn't know in a pub or club where there are glasses and chairs which you can be hit with everywhere and one of them just starts on you for kicks, would you really go to ground?

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

street fights with no rules, ...

This is why to have a brick in your hand is a must in all street fight.

 

[drop bear]

Me and anyone who has been out drinking has seen street fights with no rules, they are not rare.

On nights out with friends or old girlfriends I have been headbutted, clocked in the jaw, had a pint glass thrown and hit my head etc. I have also ran my mouth off and had a few guys start on me mainly because drunk people are aggressive and I can be irritating.

The last time I saw two guys fight and get badly maimed was at the end of a night in a fast food shop when one tried to push another guy who was resisting to the floor and they both went through the window. Someone called an ambulance.

Not once have I seen anyone drop to the floor to wrestle in an actual street fight. I have seen it in plenty of sports, but never in a fight where one of the participants was not sure how far the other person and their friends would go.

So let me ask you, if you were on your own, waiting for friends and three guys came up who you didn't know in a pub or club where there are glasses and chairs which you can be hit with everywhere and one of them just starts on you for kicks, would you really go to ground?

Space and timing.

Fighting stand up is called a fifty fifty. So all things being equal I have the same chance to knock him out as he does me.

Which is fine if there is only one guy. If there are three guys the odds automatically work in their favor now it is a 150/50. Which I probably can't win.

So my best option is to finish guys as quickly as I can. Which I can't do with the odds against me.

But if I sit on a guy and use the super power called gravity. I have the advantage. And am more likely to finish a guy. And so more likely to raise the odds in my favor

So it becomes this trade off of when I can take a guy down and do some real damage vs when I need to cover distance to escape multiple attackers.

So yeah if I have a bit of space and a few seconds I will take guys down and Bob them a few times. The trick here is mobility. If I on the ground and moving I am still hardish to hit.

If I am standing and not mobile I am not any safer than if I am on the ground.

 

[macher]

Space and timing.

Fighting stand up is called a fifty fifty. So all things being equal I have the same chance to knock him out as he does me.

Which is fine if there is only one guy. If there are three guys the odds automatically work in their favor now it is a 150/50. Which I probably can't win.

So my best option is to finish guys as quickly as I can. Which I can't do with the odds against me.

But if I sit on a guy and use the super power called gravity. I have the advantage. And am more likely to finish a guy. And so more likely to raise the odds in my favor

So it becomes this trade off of when I can take a guy down and do some real damage vs when I need to cover distance to escape multiple attackers.

So yeah if I have a bit of space and a few seconds I will take guys down and Bob them a few times. The trick here is mobility. If I on the ground and moving I am still hardish to hit.

If I am standing and not mobile I am not any safer than if I am on the ground.

This got me thinking. I was sparring against a grappler a couple of days ago. My conception of a grappler is someone that tried to get you on the ground and will keep you there and may be ground and pound you. He was a stand up grappler although he said he knows how to fight on the ground. He has a background in catch wrestling and judo. He was an ok striker but was able to defend my strikes and close in pretty good.

What was interesting and got me thinking was when we were close he would get me on the ground rather quickly. But he would let me stand back up so we could keep sparring standing up. He was using his forearms a lot under my chin across my neck to throw me off balance. He would tie up my arms and couldn’t get any uppercuts in.

This got me thinking that stand up grappling and being an ok striker could be great or even better for self defense than just being a striker. Reason is the way he was throwing me and getting me on the ground and not mounting me you could just run or if there’s another opponent try to take care of him.

 

[Martial D]

So last night a competitive judo BB walks into our club. None of our guys have judo so it was an experience. We learned several new throws, and also new ways to land on my head.

Good times.

Yeah. As per the original mission, my WC has boiled down to mostly principles and concepts. It's better than it's ever been even if it's less recognizable to traditional WC guys.

It's funny that a few short months ago I argued that guys like Keith what's his name and that other guy that trains MMA with WC concepts weren't doing WC, while now I see that sort of approach as the best WC for practical application.

 

[Tony Dismukes]

So last night a competitive judo BB walks into our club. None of our guys have judo so it was an experience. We learned several new throws, and also new ways to land on my head.

Good times.

Yeah. As per the original mission, my WC has boiled down to mostly principles and concepts. It's better than it's ever been even if it's less recognizable to traditional WC guys.

It's funny that a few short months ago I argued that guys like Keith what's his name and that other guy that trains MMA with WC concepts weren't doing WC, while now I see that sort of approach as the best WC for practical application.

Which WC principles and concepts are you finding most useful?