Wing Chun applications in MMA or the street

[LFJ]

So what do you think an accent is?

accent - definition of accent in English from the Oxford dictionary
"A distinctive way of pronouncing a language, especially one associated with a particular country, area, or social class:"

received pronunciation - definition of received pronunciation in English from the Oxford dictionary
"The standard form of British English pronunciation, based on educated speech in southern England, widely accepted as a standard elsewhere."

 

[Tez3]

Roflmao. wow you certainly have your knickers in a twist, trying to prove you are correct aren't you, I suppose the actual subject matter of WC is of little interest to you. I suppose too non Brits can believe what they want, nothing stopping them.
Ok, now look up 'dialect' which is what most people in the UK actually speak but as I said people call it an accent. Dialect - Oxford Dictionaries

 

[LFJ]

Dialects? Irrelevant. Not interested.

I already said what I had to say about the Wing Chun in the video.

People don't understand him because he mumbles and mumblers cause their listeners problems which are exacerbated when they speak with a foreign accent unfamiliar to the listener. So I understand what Buka was saying. That's it.

 

[Steve]

I'm sorry......say again?.........

I said he didn't understand him bec... h.... a mum....r.

 

[Brian R. VanCise]

ATTENTION ALL USERS:

Please, return to the original topic.

-Brian R. VanCise
-MartialTalk Moderator-

 

[geezer]

ATTENTION ALL USERS:

Please, return to the original topic.

-Brian R. VanCise
-MartialTalk Moderator-

Oh c'mon Brian... admittedly we were getting off track, but the conversation was absolutely hilarious. And relevant in that the audio was a bit of a problem on this particular clip. Normally Alan is clear and easy to understand. His accent (yes I admit we all have one) seems pretty straight-up BBC to me. And really, newscaster English on either side of the pond is about as easy to understand as it gets.

Anyway, this all started with that evil Buka. Hey Buka, you provincial colonist, if this gives you trouble, I recommend you start listening to the BBC Today broadcast on NPR or watch some good "Brit-coms" on Hulu or Netflix. We all have pride in our dialects, but it's important to be able to understand other people too.

Speaking of which, Wing Chun, like most other martial arts, has so many versions ...or accents and dialects, if you will. Ironically, I'm sure the WC community on this forum will recognize that LFJ is just as opinionated about the dialects of WC as he is about the dialects of English. In fact I'm sure he views his own posh branch of VT as the RP of WC ...if you catch my drift!

 

[geezer]

OK, now back to the video. One point Alan makes is that WC fighting doesn't necessarily have to look like WC training.

A beginner just holds his hands in fists all the time and tries to guard and strike however he can.

Then he (or she) is taught classic picture-perfect versions of techniques like tan-da, pak-da, bong sau, lap-da and so on, training and internalizing structures and concepts.

Finally, at the advanced level, the fighter can use these concepts without ever actually posing a text-book tan, pak, etc. He can hold his hands in fists all the time and wear gloves, and use his bridges to accomplish all the same functions as before, while fighting very naturally. In other words, you come back to the beginning ...only a whole lot better!

I have actually heard many other, far more traditional practitioners say pretty much the same thing. Certainly I heard it from Emin, and perhaps more surprisingly from my old sifu LT, who told us that if you really, really have good Wing Tsun, you can move looking like a boxer, a muay thai guy, or anything else and still apply your WC.

 

[drop bear]

OK, now back to the video. One point Alan makes is that WC fighting doesn't necessarily have to look like WC training.

A beginner just holds his hands in fists all the time and tries to guard and strike however he can.

Then he (or she) is taught classic picture-perfect versions of techniques like tan-da, pak-da, bong sau, lap-da and so on, training and internalizing structures and concepts.

Finally, at the advanced level, the fighter can use these concepts without ever actually posing a text-book tan, pak, etc. He can hold his hands in fists all the time and wear gloves, and use his bridges to accomplish all the same functions as before, while fighting very naturally. In other words, you come back to the beginning ...only a whole lot better!

I have actually heard many other, far more traditional practitioners say pretty much the same thing. Certainly I heard it from Emin, and perhaps more surprisingly from my old sifu LT, who told us that if you really, really have good Wing Tsun, you can move looking like a boxer, a muay thai guy, or anything else and still apply your WC.

Which i agree with. But with a massive but in this case. Wing chun looks like boxing and wrestling training in this example.

 

[Tez3]

Hard to talk about the topic when people complain they can't understand plain English lol.
Linguistics (specialising in dialectology) is my pet subject so I tend to like talking about it. Well, everyone should have an ology.

 

[geezer]

Which i agree with ...with a massive butt...

I know Alan has put on a bit since his earlier fighting days, ...still that seems a little harsh....

Seriously though, what's wrong with WC that trains a little boxing and wrestling? Sounds like a workable mix to me ...especially if you are training for MMA.

 

[drop bear]

I know Alan has put on a bit since his earlier fighting days, ...still that seems a little harsh....

Seriously though, what's wrong with WC that trains a little boxing and wrestling? Sounds like a workable mix to me ...especially if you are training for MMA.

Nothing. It is trying to manufacture wing chun concepts into other systems that is a bit weird. And very wing chun to be honest.

Mma works in exactly the opposite way. It takes other concepts and makes them mma.

 

[geezer]

Nothing. It is trying to manufacture wing chun concepts into other systems that is a bit weird. And very wing chun to be honest. Mma works in exactly the opposite way. It takes other concepts and makes them mma.

Interesting comment. Especially the bolded part. Maybe WC should translate into Wierd Chun?

Honestly, I don't know much about MMA, but I have a friend who is an MMA coach here in our metro area. He's mainly into boxing, FMA and JJJ. He knows a little WC and sees a lot of shared concepts. His problem with WC is the way it's trained. He believes it's not practical for producing fighters. Alan seems to be addressing some of the same problems. If it works, good. If not, well...

 

[drop bear]

Interesting comment. Especially the bolded part. Maybe WC should translate into Wierd Chun?

Honestly, I don't know much about MMA, but I have a friend who is an MMA coach here in our metro area. He's mainly into boxing, FMA and JJJ. He knows a little WC and sees a lot of shared concepts. His problem with WC is the way it's trained. He believes it's not practical for producing fighters. Alan seems to be addressing some of the same problems. If it works, good. If not, well...

I remember a time when chun really had the hook punch all along. I cant find anything on that do take it for what it is worth.

what you get is guys applying chun principles on this belief that they were really there all along to all sorts of silly situations.

At its worst case you get nimbskulls puliing guard and then throwing chain punches because it is all the same concepts.

Admittedly alan orr is a best case scenario where his stuff does seem to actually work and you just have to put up with a bit of force flow nonsense and ego. Until you can get on with the actual applied training that he obviously does.

But otherwise yeah i think the vertical punch thing is kind of valid. And there was a nice rear naked choke set up that legitimately uses chun ideas.

But you need to be a bit objective. you cant go searching for principles to validate your mind set. Because they either do or they don't. And all the wanting this stuff to work wont make it work.

 

[Juany118]

OK, now back to the video. One point Alan makes is that WC fighting doesn't necessarily have to look like WC training.

A beginner just holds his hands in fists all the time and tries to guard and strike however he can.

Then he (or she) is taught classic picture-perfect versions of techniques like tan-da, pak-da, bong sau, lap-da and so on, training and internalizing structures and concepts.

Finally, at the advanced level, the fighter can use these concepts without ever actually posing a text-book tan, pak, etc. He can hold his hands in fists all the time and wear gloves, and use his bridges to accomplish all the same functions as before, while fighting very naturally. In other words, you come back to the beginning ...only a whole lot better!

I have actually heard many other, far more traditional practitioners say pretty much the same thing. Certainly I heard it from Emin, and perhaps more surprisingly from my old sifu LT, who told us that if you really, really have good Wing Tsun, you can move looking like a boxer, a muay thai guy, or anything else and still apply your WC.

Exactly. I some people aren't a fan of this guy, he is an opinionated loud mouth, but at least he admits to being an opinionated loud mouth lol. However like him or hate him, say what he does is or is not "real" WC, but his methods work as evidenced by the fact you can actually find newspaper articles of him getting awards from his PD for disarming knife wielding suspects and the like. I definitely shares this attitude regarding advanced application.

It starts to get to the point at about 3:00 though earlier he makes a good point that most of what one may call techniques in WC are, when you break em down, essentially using the same forwarding energy principles of a punch (but that's not really relevant to this conversation.) Never studied with him myself but it makes a lot of sense from my perspective, which is admittedly street application and not MMA. It is kinda long, even starting at 3:00 but the idea that it doesn't have to look pretty once you have gotten past the learning phase is made throughout in addition to his basic philosophy of fighting.

 

[Hanzou]

I'm forced to agree with Drop Bear. If Orr had only trained in WC, and actually looked like a WC fighter when he fights in MMA, I could buy what he's selling. The problem is that when he fights he looks like a generic MMA fighter who learned MMA.

To see the opposite of this check out guys like Machida, A. Silva, Ryan Hall, Holdsworth, Rousey and Kron Gracie who are all using very distinct MA styles within MMA.

 

[Juany118]

I'm forced to agree with Drop Bear. If Orr had only trained in WC, and actually looked like a WC fighter when he fights in MMA, I could buy what he's selling. The problem is that when he fights he looks like a generic MMA fighter who learned MMA.

To see the opposite of this check out guys like Machida, A. Silva, Ryan Hall, Holdsworth, Rousey and Kron Gracie who are all using very distinct MA styles within MMA.

I think the problem might be people don't understand something. WC yes has forms, it has techniques but ultimately it is a conceptive art. There is a technique called tan sau which is used both to block. If you watch the video I linked above, start at about 3:10 and watch it until about 5:00 you see Izzo say "tan-sau is whatever you want it to be." WC ultimately can be boiled down to the following principles.
1. Centerline theory.
2. Structure
3. Forwarding energy with the focus being on the elbow, regardless of whether to are striking or defending.

 

[Hanzou]

I think the problem might be people don't understand something. WC yes has forms, it has techniques but ultimately it is a conceptive art. There is a technique called tan sau which is used both to block. If you watch the video I linked above, start at about 3:10 and watch it until about 5:00 you see Izzo say "tan-sau is whatever you want it to be." WC ultimately can be boiled down to the following principles.
1. Centerline theory.
2. Structure
3. Forwarding energy with the focus being on the elbow, regardless of whether to are striking or defending.

Okay, but I have yet to see a MMA fighter utilize anything resembling "Tan-Sau" as demonstrated in that video during a fight. This includes Orr, who is clearly using standard MMA striking derived from kickboxing.

 

[Juany118]

Okay, but I have yet to see a MMA fighter utilize anything resembling "Tan-Sau" as demonstrated in that video during a fight. This includes Orr, who is clearly using standard MMA striking derived from kickboxing.

I was just using that as an example. However listen to what he is saying. He is basing everything in a simple fact. While I don't think he ever used the term "biomechanics" all humans, and thus all Martial Arts, can only move in so many ways. He shows a tan in the video, though not as defense as one example. The arm position is consistent when he uses it, he just illustrates a non-typical WC way it can be used, and is used, by wrestling in an application other than a block. He trapped a hand with a gum sau but it is something many other arts use as well, they may simply call it trapping and not have some flowery name. In the form both hands come down in gum but in practice only one hand can be used. Yes the punches he did looked like kick boxing punches, but they also adhered to WC principles, the elbows were down, the fist with the palm facing in and coming from the centerline without rotation of the elbow or excessive use of the shoulder.

It's like what I did at work one night. A fak sau is essentially a knife hand or "chop", in the form it is done parallel to the ground. Usually you see it as an attack to side of the head or neck while fighting an opponent. I did it after stepping behind a suspects leading leg in order to execute a take down. Now was that WC? Absolutely. Would someone look at it and immediately say "that was WC?" No they wouldn't, they would see what appeared to be a simple take down maybe, from watching Steven Segal movies, assuming it was Aikido.

Now if you look at the art standing alone and in its totality, yes WC is different than other MAs. However when you look at individual techniques, in practice, there are similarities with many other MAs, and tbh, there simply must be due to the very nature of biomechanics. The differences will be terminology and at times intent. He shows the example of the arm bar, in wrestling that would be to take the person down, in WC it would be to turn the opponent's blind side to the fighter so they can strike the vulnerable areas on the kidneys and maybe under the arm. The take down I did, by a wrestler would be to do what I did, follow them to the ground so you can restrain them. If I was doing it with WC intent it would be to ground and pound.

The problem is one of perspective I think. You see things from the lens of your experience. If that is kick boxing then you will see kick boxing, if it is WC you see WC. I learn two arts side by side, WC and Kali. There are times when I watch fights and say "yep that's something I don't do", then times I say "hey we do that in WC" or " we do that in Kali ". There are even times I say "he we do that in both WC and Kali." It is inevitable.

 

[Hanzou]

The problem is one of perspective I think. You see things from the lens of your experience. If that is kick boxing then you will see kick boxing, if it is WC you see WC. I learn two arts side by side, WC and Kali. There are times when I watch fights and say "yep that's something I don't do", then times I say "hey we do that in WC" or " we do that in Kali ". There are even times I say "he we do that in both WC and Kali." It is inevitable.

No, the problem is that someone is clearly doing kickboxing and a TMA practitioner attempts to counter saying that they're really doing their traditional MA. In actuality, that person really IS just doing kickboxing. Which makes sense btw, since they're trying to last more than 10 seconds in a fight.

Observe this video;

That guy was clearly doing Wing Chun.

If despite all the forms, weapons, and concepts the end result of your fighting style is looking like a kick boxer, why not just save the time and train in kickboxing?

 

[geezer]

That guy was clearly doing Wing Chun. If despite all the forms, weapons, and concepts the end result of your fighting style is looking like a kick boxer, why not just save the time and train in kickboxing?

No, that guy was posing like Donnie Yen in a movie, and then getting taken down. I didn't see any Wing Chun. He might have been planning on doing WC, but it never happened.

Now about what Alan Orr's guys do... He uses a lot of WC fighting concepts but he is training MMA fighters to compete in MMA. So of course that shows. Alan gets the same flack from WC purists as he does from you, and he's answered it. No point in repeating it. You either don't understand or don't accept his arguments. Personally I don't care.

I am interested to see where he goes with his stuff and how far he gets.