Xu Xiaodong

[wckf92]

@wckf92
He's using pak/da to counter the punch. This we do not consider a mistake. It's one of many options. Initiating a pak from the rear hand against a static opponent would be a mistake (If I'm in wu/man sau with my left arm forward and I have contact with the outside of my opponent's left arm, initiating a pak sau with my right hand would be considered a mistake).[/QUOTE]

Thank you for clarifying.
Perhaps I've misunderstood the WSL VT guys; or, maybe MK VT differs from the PB guys...
Thx

 

[JowGaWolf]

Here is an old clip of one of my students sparring against two guys from the local MMA school.
His two opponents participate regularly in pancrase competitions and one (the guy with no shirt) was even national champion in his weight class.

This type of training really brings something. The OP video is just a joke.

https://www.facebook.com/video.php?v=10205459715308979

I forgot to say, that he is the only Wing Chun person that I've seen in free sparring that didn't try to punch his way out of a shoot. I was so happy to just see that.

 

[Lobo66]

@JowGaWolf
Lol I did have to remind him to sprawl against the first shot. At first he started to hit the back of the head of his sparring partner which is 1) not effective and 2) against the rules of the competition he was training for.

I teach my students that good takedown defense starts with good footwork, body positioning and distance control. Keeping your elbows in and knowing how to frame (using laan sau, for example) and lower your level also helps. But when you gotta sprawl you gotta sprawl. If you fudge that try at least to put the guy into your guard and work from there.

 

[JowGaWolf]

@JowGaWolf
Lol I did have to remind him to sprawl against the first shot. At first he started to hit the back of the head of his sparring partner which is 1) not effective and 2) against the rules of the competition he was training for.

I teach my students that good takedown defense starts with good footwork, body positioning and distance control. Keeping your elbows in and knowing how to frame (using laan sau, for example) and lower your level also helps. But when you gotta sprawl you gotta sprawl. If you fudge that try at least to put the guy into your guard and work from there.

Well.. It's a good thing he listens to you lol.

 

[JR 137]

@JowGaWolf
Lol I did have to remind him to sprawl against the first shot. At first he started to hit the back of the head of his sparring partner which is 1) not effective and 2) against the rules of the competition he was training for.

I teach my students that good takedown defense starts with good footwork, body positioning and distance control. Keeping your elbows in and knowing how to frame (using laan sau, for example) and lower your level also helps. But when you gotta sprawl you gotta sprawl. If you fudge that try at least to put the guy into your guard and work from there.

I commend you for not teaching the "anti-grappling" nonsense I've seen too many times.

And it's great to see your guy can take a punch and keep going. Too many of those "challenge" videos have a guy beaten pretty badly simply because they couldn't handle being pressured and hit; they get overwhelmed by it and trip up over their own feet. He stands his ground nicely.

 

[Lobo66]

You're right, we see that all too often in challenge/sparring matches involving WC people or (as in the OP) people from the "internal" martial arts. An utter lack of training involving pressure testing their skills means that they are just setting themselves up for failure. Once they get hit their whole world crumbles.

My philosophy is, if you're going to learn how to deal with grappling then you should start by learning some grappling...from a professional.

 

[geezer]

I commend you for not teaching the "anti-grappling" nonsense I've seen too many times.

For the record, which "anti-grappling" nonsense?

From my perspective, "anti-grappling" is simply rudimentary movements to defend and escape from a shoot, throw, or ground position and return to your standup, striking game. So really, the only difference between "anti-grappling" and rudimentary grappling is the objective, not the means. Both are grappling. But whereas the grappler proceeds to establish control on the ground, the "anti-grappler" seeks to escape and return to striking mode..

To that end, against a common shoot WC/VT typically teaches:

1. Moving off-line, protecting the legs, and using head control with forward pressure (jum, jut or gum-sau) to stuff the shoot,

2. Again using off-lining to get the legs back and forward pressure in the chain punching to stuff and deflect the shoot. (Jow Ga referred to this tactic).

3. When the opponent shoots and catches one or both of your legs, raining vertical elbows down on his back (good luck with that!) Actually, it does work quite well in staged demos against a horizontal, tackle-like take-down with no forward intent or follow through ...but then so will standing still and eating a sandwich. Which I would actually prefer. ...Must be lunchtime.

4. A simple sprawl, cross-face and pivot behind to gain control or return to stand-up position.

Of the above, numbers 1 and 2 can work, especially against a clumsy shoot by an inexperienced attacker ...someone who doesn't set up their shoot well, attacks tentatively or from too far away, doesn't shoot in deep and follow through, etc. In fact, against such an attack, these responses may be preferable to a grappler's sprawl, since they leave you in a good position to do what you do best, i.e. striking.

On the other hand, against a competent shoot, I'd go straight to the sprawl. I learned how to do it wrestling as a kid, it's a natural response for me, and it's a high percentage move. And, even though it's not in some WC/VT/WT "anti-grappling" programs, it should be!

Allow me to illustrate, guys. Here's Sean Obasi who should know a little about takedown defense demonstrating using a downward palm or gum-sau to defend against a shoot.

Pay close attention to the crappy quality of the shoot -- the distancing, the horizontal orientation of the shooter's back, the shallow penetration, and the total lack of forward intent and follow though which enables Obasi to stay in a narrow upright stance and drop his palm on the back of the shooter's head (check at 0:10):

Now here's the very first youtube clip that came up when I did a search for "double-leg takedown." Just good, competent wrestling. Check out the shooter's body position at about 0:33 - 0:45 as he drives deep through his attackers legs. Notice his upright posture, and tell me how in hell you could stop that at full speed and power with a jum or a gum sau on his head!

 

[JowGaWolf]

Once they get hit their whole world crumbles.

Very true. That does seem to be the trade mark of many of these fights. They get hit; and after that hit, they are lost. To be honest the hits that crumbles their world, aren't the strongest of hits.

 

[Lobo66]

Sprawling is really a worst case scenario. With experience I do think you will able to use footwork and positioning/angling coupled with effective striking to discourage the clinch and/or takedown attempt. That being said, you still need to learn how to sprawl. Here's a good little clip of Firis Zahabi sharing his views on the subject :

 

[JowGaWolf]

For the record, which "anti-grappling" nonsense?

From my perspective, "anti-grappling" is simply rudimentary movements to defend and escape from a shoot, throw, or ground position and return to your standup, striking game. So really, the only difference between "anti-grappling" and rudimentary grappling is the objective, not the means. Both are grappling. But whereas the grappler proceeds to establish control on the ground, the "anti-grappler" seeks to escape and return to striking mode..

To that end, against a common shoot WC/VT typically teaches:

1. Moving off-line, protecting the legs, and using head control with forward pressure (jum, jut or gum-sau) to stuff the shoot,

2. Again using off-lining to get the legs back and forward pressure in the chain punching to stuff and deflect the shoot. (Jow Ga referred to this tactic).

3. When the opponent shoots and catches one or both of your legs, raining vertical elbows down on his back (good luck with that!) Actually, it does work quite well in staged demos against a horizontal, tackle-like take-down with no forward intent or follow through ...but then so will standing still and eating a sandwich. Which I would actually prefer. ...Must be lunchtime.

4. A simple sprawl, cross-face and pivot behind to gain control or return to stand-up position.

Of the above, numbers 1 and 2 can work, especially against a clumsy shoot by an inexperienced attacker ...someone who doesn't set up their shoot well, attacks tentatively or from too far away, doesn't shoot in deep and follow through, etc. In fact, against such an attack, these responses may be preferable to a grappler's sprawl, since they leave you in a good position to do what you do best, i.e. striking.

On the other hand, against a competent shoot, I'd go straight to the sprawl. I learned how to do it wrestling as a kid, it's a natural response for me, and it's a high percentage move. And, even though it's not in some WC/VT/WT "anti-grappling" programs, it should be!

Allow me to illustrate, guys. Here's Sean Obasi who should know a little about takedown defense demonstrating using a downward palm or gum-sau to defend against a shoot.

Pay close attention to the crappy quality of the shoot -- the distancing, the horizontal orientation of the shooter's back, the shallow penetration, and the total lack of forward intent and follow though which enables Obasi to stay in a narrow upright stance and drop his palm on the back of the shooter's head (check at 0:10):

Now here's the very first youtube clip that came up when I did a search for "double-leg takedown." Just good, competent wrestling. Check out the shooter's body position at about 0:33 - 0:45 as he drives deep through his attackers legs. Notice his upright posture, and tell me how in hell you could stop that at full speed and power with a jum or a gum sau on his head!

There's my brother in the video (the black guy). Yeah anyone that knows how to do a proper shoot will void all of that "martial art punch em when they go for your legs solutions." If they have your legs then they will try to uproot their opponent. They practice uprooting people more than many martial artist practice uprooting, so they are really good at it. Once the root is gone then everything related to striking is gone. Once the body feels that it is losing balance, it will override all of that martial art stuff and make regaining balance priority #1. The only way to deal with stuff like that is to protect the root and if possible, don't stand in a way that makes it easy for a person to initiate a shoot.

 

[JowGaWolf]

Sprawling is really a worst case scenario. With experience I do think you will able to use footwork and positioning/angling coupled with effective striking to discourage the clinch and/or takedown attempt. That being said, you still need to learn how to sprawl. Here's a good little clip of Firis Zahabi sharing his views on the subject :

I understand what the concept, I just would like to see if he could have pulled it off as he was demonstrating. They should have thrown a few rounds of punches and then surprise shoot. Not sure if Shane is the right person to use though. The things I really like is that he put weight on the top part of Shanes back with causes an improper lift. Even if Shane was successful with getting one of the legs, lifting up 150+ pounds on the end of the back like that will F-up the back.

The sprawl may not have been necessary because of how Shane was shooting. It might have been possible just twist Shane out of the shoot. Either way good stuff simply because the techniques make an effort to protect the root, places dead weight on top of the opponent, and uses the concept of redirecting. All of that stuff works. I'm with you on the Sprawl. Learning how to sprawl is a fail safe. Sometimes my timing can be off to do anything else but sprawl. I also like what he said about not liking the sprawl where you put your hips forward into the shoot. My preference is not to meet a shoot with head on force.

 

[JR 137]

For the record, which "anti-grappling" nonsense?

From my perspective, "anti-grappling" is simply rudimentary movements to defend and escape from a shoot, throw, or ground position and return to your standup, striking game. So really, the only difference between "anti-grappling" and rudimentary grappling is the objective, not the means. Both are grappling. But whereas the grappler proceeds to establish control on the ground, the "anti-grappler" seeks to escape and return to striking mode..

To that end, against a common shoot WC/VT typically teaches:

1. Moving off-line, protecting the legs, and using head control with forward pressure (jum, jut or gum-sau) to stuff the shoot,

2. Again using off-lining to get the legs back and forward pressure in the chain punching to stuff and deflect the shoot. (Jow Ga referred to this tactic).

3. When the opponent shoots and catches one or both of your legs, raining vertical elbows down on his back (good luck with that!) Actually, it does work quite well in staged demos against a horizontal, tackle-like take-down with no forward intent or follow through ...but then so will standing still and eating a sandwich. Which I would actually prefer. ...Must be lunchtime.

4. A simple sprawl, cross-face and pivot behind to gain control or return to stand-up position.

Of the above, numbers 1 and 2 can work, especially against a clumsy shoot by an inexperienced attacker ...someone who doesn't set up their shoot well, attacks tentatively or from too far away, doesn't shoot in deep and follow through, etc. In fact, against such an attack, these responses may be preferable to a grappler's sprawl, since they leave you in a good position to do what you do best, i.e. striking.

On the other hand, against a competent shoot, I'd go straight to the sprawl. I learned how to do it wrestling as a kid, it's a natural response for me, and it's a high percentage move. And, even though it's not in some WC/VT/WT "anti-grappling" programs, it should be!

Allow me to illustrate, guys. Here's Sean Obasi who should know a little about takedown defense demonstrating using a downward palm or gum-sau to defend against a shoot.

Pay close attention to the crappy quality of the shoot -- the distancing, the horizontal orientation of the shooter's back, the shallow penetration, and the total lack of forward intent and follow though which enables Obasi to stay in a narrow upright stance and drop his palm on the back of the shooter's head (check at 0:10):

Now here's the very first youtube clip that came up when I did a search for "double-leg takedown." Just good, competent wrestling. Check out the shooter's body position at about 0:33 - 0:45 as he drives deep through his attackers legs. Notice his upright posture, and tell me how in hell you could stop that at full speed and power with a jum or a gum sau on his head!

The "anti-grappling nonsense" like you showed in your 1st video. Like you said, against full speed and power shooting and competent shooting, that doesn't have a chance to work.

I wrestled from 3rd grade through high school. I coached on and off for 10 years. Beyond a shadow of a doubt, the video you posted (as an example of what's wrong) doesn't have a chance.

I was commending Lobo66 for not falling into that pattern with his guy(s).

 

[geezer]

I also like what he said about not liking the sprawl where you put your hips forward into the shoot. My preference is not to meet a shoot with head on force.

Yeah, I like that part too. The way he rolled his hip with the direction of the shoot to deflect force rather than oppose it seemed very Wing Chun-like in principle. Maybe Jow Ga-like too, if you can apply the principles to grappling.

BTW, @Jow Ga -- did you mean that the black guy in the wrestling clip I found was your actual, biological brother? What are the odds of that?!

 

[JR 137]

Sprawling is really a worst case scenario. With experience I do think you will able to use footwork and positioning/angling coupled with effective striking to discourage the clinch and/or takedown attempt. That being said, you still need to learn how to sprawl. Here's a good little clip of Firis Zahabi sharing his views on the subject :

It's impossible to agree and like the same post, so I went with agree. That being said...

Finally!!! Someone else teaches it the way I instinctually did it, and the way I taught it to my wrestlers after they had sprawling effectively down.

One thing I wish he talked about was the overhook (aka whizzer) he had every time. It would've been perfect if he said lean your weight into that overhook, forcing the opponent to flatten out. If they don't flatten out on their stomach, they'll get a dislocated shoulder. Once they're flat, in a non-wrestling context, they're completely done. Feel free to choke from the back, launch punches to the kidneys, or whatever floats your boat.

But absolutely - learn to sprawl first. Using the angled sprawl (as I like to call it) is all about timing. A split second to late and it won't work.

Sorry, I was THE coach on our staff when we practiced shooting defense.

 

[JowGaWolf]

Yeah, I like that part too. The way he rolled his hip with the direction of the shoot to deflect force rather than oppose it seemed very Wing Chun-like in principle. Maybe Jow Ga-like too, if you can apply the principles to grappling.

BTW, @Jow Ga -- did you mean that the black guy in the wrestling clip I found was your actual, biological brother? What are the odds of that?!

Yeah that's actually my biological brother lol. He's my younger brother but I look up to him in many ways. He's better with people than I am. I'm more of a loner but I try to be a little like him since being a loner can be unhealthy. He's like a rockstar at the high school where he works and he has lots of good friends as well as people who think well about him. He does wrestling, BJJ, and Muay Thai. His coach just became world champion in an MMA organization. It's not the UFC, but I can't remember off the top of my head. His coach is now practically a legend in Malaysia.

In Jow Ga we have both "hard and soft" techniques so if we don't have stop the force then we'll yield to it and let it pass. But for use the first thing is to save the root, remain in control of the impact and then give way to the direction of the force. In my experience a shoot never really lands straight on, unless a person is caught sleeping. Usually when a person shoots on someone one, there is more pressure on one side than the other. The key is to recognize that force at the same time I try to restore my root and then let the rest of the force from the shoot to flow by. It's better for me to let my opponent stumble by than for me to help him to remain standing by holding up the force from his shoot. I'm not a ground fighter, or ground grappler so I don't play that game. lol.

See :55 it's almost exactly like the video except it's higher up. Another rule to my shoot defense is to only give up one leg. Avoid double leg take downs as much as possible. This is where stance comes into play. He ducked under my hook and went for the take down, which is usually how these things happen. Punching stance is probably similar to Wing Chun meaning one leg forward and one leg back. That' the only thing that kept me safe from a double leg. The impact from the shoot buckles my leg because I don't try to meet stuff like that with force. It's best to let that leg relax and let the force flow through the leg. Sometimes trying to keep that leg rooted causes more harm than good. It didn't take much to regain balance because I was leaning on my opponent. You can play the video in slow motion an you'll see that I have a similar lean to what was shown in the sprawl video. If you pause the video you can actually see that he's off balance when he goes pass me. me hooking under his arm keeps him from hooking my arm. It seems like a lot think about but it really isn't. The body picks up a lot of sensory information so there's really no thinking and it happens quick. I'm not sure how things would have been if the guy as better at shooting.

For others who may not be familiar. Keeping or restoring one's root doesn't mean trying to stay in one place like a tree that doesn't move. It simply means moving your feet and repositioning the body so that your opponent can no longer use the initial force to easily uproot you. For example, stepping off center or moving with the force of the impact or at an angle to the force of the angle. In short, I need to have control of my footing and movement. I'm useless if I'm stumbling around. If someone shoots on me. I put my weight on them which not only makes a bad lift for them, but it also gives me support. It's like using their body as a senior citizen walker which in turns makes it easier for me to regain balance.

See 1:02. I allow my opponent to shoot in on me, so I could attempt a hidden sweep. He had a nice wide stance when he came in and that saved his butt. You can see that my sweep lands but his wide stance saved him. The sweep was still enough to disrupt his shoot and to allow me to escape. You can actually see that he had a single leg takedown, but he missed it because the sweep disrupted his balance. When the body is out of balance everything else takes a back seat to Priority #1 which is to regain balance. It was just enough time for my leg to easily escape. Instead of me going back directly into my opponent I towards him at an angle. It starts that circular spin similar to what was in the video about sprawling. This would be the stand up version of that. Because he's lower and on my side, I knew I could put my weight on him to cause an improper lift by getting my arm around his neck. When he tries his second take down you can see that he's dealing with my weight and that I'm using him to support my balance and you can see that awkward lift begin to set in.

 

[JR 137]

Yeah that's actually my biological brother lol. He's my younger brother but I look up to him in many ways. He's better with people than I am. I'm more of a loner but I try to be a little like him since being a loner can be unhealthy. He's like a rockstar at the high school where he works and he has lots of good friends as well as people who think well about him. He does wrestling, BJJ, and Muay Thai. His coach just became world champion in an MMA organization. It's not the UFC, but I can't remember off the top of my head. His coach is now practically a legend in Malaysia.

In Jow Ga we have both "hard and soft" techniques so if we don't have stop the force then we'll yield to it and let it pass. But for use the first thing is to save the root, remain in control of the impact and then give way to the direction of the force. In my experience a shoot never really lands straight on, unless a person is caught sleeping. Usually when a person shoots on someone one, there is more pressure on one side than the other. The key is to recognize that force at the same time I try to restore my root and then let the rest of the force from the shoot to flow by. It's better for me to let my opponent stumble by than for me to help him to remain standing by holding up the force from his shoot. I'm not a ground fighter, or ground grappler so I don't play that game. lol.

See :55 it's almost exactly like the video except it's higher up. Another rule to my shoot defense is to only give up one leg. Avoid double leg take downs as much as possible. This is where stance comes into play. He ducked under my hook and went for the take down, which is usually how these things happen. Punching stance is probably similar to Wing Chun meaning one leg forward and one leg back. That' the only thing that kept me safe from a double leg. The impact from the shoot buckles my leg because I don't try to meet stuff like that with force. It's best to let that leg relax and let the force flow through the leg. Sometimes trying to keep that leg rooted causes more harm than good. It didn't take much to regain balance because I was leaning on my opponent. You can play the video in slow motion an you'll see that I have a similar lean to what was shown in the sprawl video. If you pause the video you can actually see that he's off balance when he goes pass me. me hooking under his arm keeps him from hooking my arm. It seems like a lot think about but it really isn't. The body picks up a lot of sensory information so there's really no thinking and it happens quick. I'm not sure how things would have been if the guy as better at shooting.

For others who may not be familiar. Keeping or restoring one's root doesn't mean trying to stay in one place like a tree that doesn't move. It simply means moving your feet and repositioning the body so that your opponent can no longer use the initial force to easily uproot you. For example, stepping off center or moving with the force of the impact or at an angle to the force of the angle. In short, I need to have control of my footing and movement. I'm useless if I'm stumbling around. If someone shoots on me. I put my weight on them which not only makes a bad lift for them, but it also gives me support. It's like using their body as a senior citizen walker which in turns makes it easier for me to regain balance.

See 1:02. I allow my opponent to shoot in on me, so I could attempt a hidden sweep. He had a nice wide stance when he came in and that saved his butt. You can see that my sweep lands but his wide stance saved him. The sweep was still enough to disrupt his shoot and to allow me to escape. You can actually see that he had a single leg takedown, but he missed it because the sweep disrupted his balance. When the body is out of balance everything else takes a back seat to Priority #1 which is to regain balance. It was just enough time for my leg to easily escape. Instead of me going back directly into my opponent I towards him at an angle. It starts that circular spin similar to what was in the video about sprawling. This would be the stand up version of that. Because he's lower and on my side, I knew I could put my weight on him to cause an improper lift by getting my arm around his neck. When he tries his second take down you can see that he's dealing with my weight and that I'm using him to support my balance and you can see that awkward lift begin to set in.

I always appreciate seeing your takedowns and avoiding takedowns in your videos.

IMO the reason why you're successful with them is your footwork and mechanics (as you elaborated on but put into different words than I do), but just as importantly - your timing. You recognize it and adjust appropriately right on time. The few times you almost got caught, your footwork and mechanics saved you, and you readjusted appropriately and on time.

I've said it several times - you naturally move like a trained wrestler when it comes to avoiding takedowns. You're putting your center of gravity/mass in the right places according to what your opponent is doing, and on time. That's the key.

Perhaps mess around and make an instructional video on what you're looking for and how you're moving?

 

[JowGaWolf]

I always appreciate seeing your takedowns and avoiding takedowns in your videos.

IMO the reason why you're successful with them is your footwork and mechanics (as you elaborated on but put into different words than I do), but just as importantly - your timing. You recognize it and adjust appropriately right on time. The few times you almost got caught, your footwork and mechanics saved you, and you readjusted appropriately and on time.

I've said it several times - you naturally move like a trained wrestler when it comes to avoiding takedowns. You're putting your center of gravity/mass in the right places according to what your opponent is doing, and on time. That's the key.

Perhaps mess around and make an instructional video on what you're looking for and how you're moving?

Footwork is a must. Maybe one day I'll record the footwork exercises. I'm not sure if anyone would be interested in something like that. Only one seems really strange because it's one that I've kind of done through my life as something just to do.

 

[Phobius]

Exercises are the interesting parts to take from these forums. They are where you can analyze improvements to your own methods and ideas.