Wing Chun and mma.

[Martial D]

I've always found the important skill to get to use trapping was bridging which it's self is a function of footwork and timing.

Ive found bridging (the wc way)becomes less of a thing once you add long range tools. You will usually end up at trapping range whether you like it or not, forcing it can hurt.

 

[wingchun100]

So for the past few months I've been focusing on Wing Chun, to the exclusion of all else. But rather than classical Wing Chun, what I am trying to do is shuck the jive so to speak and see exactly how sharp I can make this tool based on what I know and my sparring/fighting experience.

Anyway, tonight I went and talked to the owner/head instructor of a new mma gym that just opened in my area, and he agreed to help me do just that. I will start training there tomorrow evening.

Totally stoked to do this.

I can share and understand your excitement on this. Recently I started attending a class on Monday nights in a place called the Chinese Martial Arts Academy. They have a wide variety of classes there (wushu, Jeet Kune Do, kickboxing), but on Mondays they let people who might have studied other styles come in and spar with whatever style they know.

It has been quite an eye-opener. The only sparring I did before this involved punching and entry for takedowns. Needless to say, this means I have found I am struggling to work my way around certain kicks. Hell, last Monday I walked RIGHT INTO a front push kick! However, I have a super analytical mind, so what I do is go home and write up all the different things I have problems with, think about solutions, and then test them out until I get something that works.

 

[jkdgenius]

Glad you've had a good experience bro! Keep it up and defo keep us updated please. I love wing chch but I remember the first time I trained in mma, really opens your eyes!

 

[Martial D]

5 mins seems like a really short amount of time if you need to, say, get ready to go somewhere or maybe take a dump. It's a commercial break during your favourite show. It's nothing really.

Until it's a round of grappling sparring. Then it's all the time from the big bang until robots rule the Earth.

 

[Martial D]

Instructor: do this drill, then give me 100 punches.

Me: finishes drill, throws 100 chain punches into the mits of a slightly confused partner. Waits for everyone else to finish.

Instructor:cheater.

 

[drop bear]

5 mins seems like a really short amount of time if you need to, say, get ready to go somewhere or maybe take a dump. It's a commercial break during your favourite show. It's nothing really.

Until it's a round of grappling sparring. Then it's all the time from the big bang until robots rule the Earth.

Yeah. I have mentioned this when people tell me about training a self defence mindset.

And I am like if you haven't actually done the hard yards, five minutes of work and that mindset evaporates and all you want to do is quit.

Screaming or meditation or whatever the heck people have been doing. Doesn't help.

 

[Martial D]

Yeah. I have mentioned this when people tell me about training a self defence mindset.

And I am like if you haven't actually done the hard yards, five minutes of work and that mindset evaporates and all you want to do is quit.

Screaming or meditation or whatever the heck people have been doing. Doesn't help.

Just got back from an amazing session where a whole bunch of **** clicked. Tonight it was 2 back to back 3 min rounds, with a freaking beast blue belt that weighs 60 pounds more than me. I never appreciated being able to breath so much in my life as when that second round ended.

 

[Martial D]

So I started 1 month ago tonight. I must say the improvements to my game have been massive, both in WC and fighting in general, but the one thing that really stands out is my cardio. I can go hard the whole time without feeling dead with an empty tank now, where at first I could barely move after class(and I would have said I was in good shape with good cardio before I started this).

Imo the ability to keep going and do the hard rounds is as valuable or more valuable than any technique or techniques.

 

[DaveB]

So I started 1 month ago tonight. I must say the improvements to my game have been massive, both in WC and fighting in general, but the one thing that really stands out is my cardio. I can go hard the whole time without feeling dead with an empty tank now, where at first I could barely move after class(and I would have said I was in good shape with good cardio before I started this).

Imo the ability to keep going and do the hard rounds is as valuable or more valuable than any technique or techniques.

This is a big part of my long-standing point, that training is a separate thing from a fighting style and the thing that makes the biggest difference.

If you think, move and hit faster than your opponent, if you spot openings or read incoming attacks better, you will be the better fighter.

Chi sau and forms are just training exercises that can be over or under emphasised, just like cardio or strength training. The only real problem with TMA schools in general is training culture. The schools that match their training to their goals are the proof of this.

 

[drop bear]

This is a big part of my long-standing point, that training is a separate thing from a fighting style and the thing that makes the biggest difference.

If you think, move and hit faster than your opponent, if you spot openings or read incoming attacks better, you will be the better fighter.

Chi sau and forms are just training exercises that can be over or under emphasised, just like cardio or strength training. The only real problem with TMA schools in general is training culture. The schools that match their training to their goals are the proof of this.

Yeah. not really. If you do rubbish then being a fit strong monster will only take you so far.

You cant push a cart with square wheels.

 

[drop bear]

Yeah. not really. If you do rubbish then being a fit strong monster will only take you so far.

You cant push a cart with square wheels.

Let me expand on this.

MMA especially, due to its nature, is about efficiency. Because the active nature of the sport and the long round times and the importance of having gas in the tank at the time you need to use it. Opperating with the best (or most efficient) system is increadably important.

So getting strong is vital. But the other guy will be strong so it is not an advatage. It is the ability to have the maximum amount of athletic ability available at the right time.

This means if in your training you have mucked about with a system that is not optimal. You are wasting resources you may need.

This might be as simple as say doing kata. If it doesn't transfer the skills needed as efficiently as say sparring. When you fight a guy you then have to overcome that with effort. You are giving up advantages.

The more advantages you give up. The more of a mountain you have to climb.

From a purely MMA perspective. If you get tired, And become imobile or start leaning up against the cage wall. The other guy can force you to constantly engage. This makes you more tired and opens you up to being placed in a position of greater disadvantage which forces you to work harder, making you more tired.

Eventually you health meter runs out and you get finished.

There are purely systems based advantages and disadvantages. And there is no getting around that.

 

[drop bear]

 

[macher]

Let me expand on this.

MMA especially, due to its nature, is about efficiency. Because the active nature of the sport and the long round times and the importance of having gas in the tank at the time you need to use it. Opperating with the best (or most efficient) system is increadably important.

So getting strong is vital. But the other guy will be strong so it is not an advatage. It is the ability to have the maximum amount of athletic ability available at the right time.

This means if in your training you have mucked about with a system that is not optimal. You are wasting resources you may need.

This might be as simple as say doing kata. If it doesn't transfer the skills needed as efficiently as say sparring. When you fight a guy you then have to overcome that with effort. You are giving up advantages.

The more advantages you give up. The more of a mountain you have to climb.

From a purely MMA perspective. If you get tired, And become imobile or start leaning up against the cage wall. The other guy can force you to constantly engage. This makes you more tired and opens you up to being placed in a position of greater disadvantage which forces you to work harder, making you more tired.

Eventually you health meter runs out and you get finished.

There are purely systems based advantages and disadvantages. And there is no getting around that.

MMA is a great way to test your martial art to see it’s effectiveness.

 

[DaveB]

Let me expand on this.

MMA especially, due to its nature, is about efficiency. Because the active nature of the sport and the long round times and the importance of having gas in the tank at the time you need to use it. Opperating with the best (or most efficient) system is increadably important.

So getting strong is vital. But the other guy will be strong so it is not an advatage. It is the ability to have the maximum amount of athletic ability available at the right time.

This means if in your training you have mucked about with a system that is not optimal. You are wasting resources you may need.

This might be as simple as say doing kata. If it doesn't transfer the skills needed as efficiently as say sparring. When you fight a guy you then have to overcome that with effort. You are giving up advantages.

The more advantages you give up. The more of a mountain you have to climb.

From a purely MMA perspective. If you get tired, And become imobile or start leaning up against the cage wall. The other guy can force you to constantly engage. This makes you more tired and opens you up to being placed in a position of greater disadvantage which forces you to work harder, making you more tired.

Eventually you health meter runs out and you get finished.

There are purely systems based advantages and disadvantages. And there is no getting around that.

You say that you are talking about system based advantages but your example is doing kata, a training exercise.

This is the big problem with this discussion: we go to class and we "do" Martial arts, and think that the training is the art. It's not.

As I mentioned before, kata is a training tool that can be over-emphasised, under-emphasised or ignored altogether and what guides those choices are your aims and environment.

Kata is a solo exercise. There's no great need to do it when you have training partners. It's benefits are a totally different area of training to sparring, so doing kata to the detriment of sparring is about poorly constructed training programs, especially if your aim is ring fighting. It is nothing to do with the fighting style.

I have encountered no studies of the comparative efficiency levels of different martial arts. In fact I would question what exactly you're referring to when you claim efficiency or inefficiency of this or that martial art?

Also since MMA is about mixing martial arts, surely the point would be to replace in-system weaknesses with bits from other systems just as happens with boxing, wrestling etc?

 

[macher]

You say that you are talking about system based advantages but your example is doing kata, a training exercise.

This is the big problem with this discussion: we go to class and we "do" Martial arts, and think that the training is the art. It's not.

As I mentioned before, kata is a training tool that can be over-emphasised, under-emphasised or ignored altogether and what guides those choices are your aims and environment.

Kata is a solo exercise. There's no great need to do it when you have training partners. It's benefits are a totally different area of training to sparring, so doing kata to the detriment of sparring is about poorly constructed training programs, especially if your aim is ring fighting. It is nothing to do with the fighting style.

I have encountered no studies of the comparative efficiency levels of different martial arts. In fact I would question what exactly you're referring to when you claim efficiency or inefficiency of this or that martial art?

Also since MMA is about mixing martial arts, surely the point would be to replace in-system weaknesses with bits from other systems just as happens with boxing, wrestling etc?

This is an example from doing some research. Okinawan Karate was pretty much individual training. For instance maybe a farmer trained his sons. Okinawan Karate purpose was to fight / defend. I’m pretty sure in this case there wasn’t much kata if any. Most likely pure application.

 

[drop bear]

You say that you are talking about system based advantages but your example is doing kata, a training exercise.

This is the big problem with this discussion: we go to class and we "do" Martial arts, and think that the training is the art. It's not.

As I mentioned before, kata is a training tool that can be over-emphasised, under-emphasised or ignored altogether and what guides those choices are your aims and environment.

Kata is a solo exercise. There's no great need to do it when you have training partners. It's benefits are a totally different area of training to sparring, so doing kata to the detriment of sparring is about poorly constructed training programs, especially if your aim is ring fighting. It is nothing to do with the fighting style.

I have encountered no studies of the comparative efficiency levels of different martial arts. In fact I would question what exactly you're referring to when you claim efficiency or inefficiency of this or that martial art?

Also since MMA is about mixing martial arts, surely the point would be to replace in-system weaknesses with bits from other systems just as happens with boxing, wrestling etc?

Except there are arts that do kata and don't spar. There are arts that spar and don't do kata.

The training is the art.

But OK let's say it isn't. Let's make an art a system of techniques that can be trained in any manner.

You still are going to have a list of techniques that are better than another list. Again this is where efficiency comes in. Regardless of how you train. What you focus on. If you have an inefficient list you have to work harder to be successful.

And by the way there really should be no fundamental difference between the benefits of kata for ring or kata for street. It will either help you fight. Or it won't.

Of course MMA does have its own study. They are called MMA fights. We can tell what systems are more efficient. Because they are more successful for a wider range of people.

And yes the point of MMA is to introduce better systems from other arts.

 

[Martial D]

Simultaneous attack and defense!

Ok, first of all, I train MMA with a white belt mentality. I work what I train there, and leave my existing skills at the door FOR THE MOST PART.

Tonight was sparring night, like every Thursday, but tonight was different. The Dutch kickboxing way of doing things, throwing, standing, moving, defending, etc is part of my muscle memory now. I don't need to think about how to move around attacks, where to step, when to throw, how to defend this or that. So anyway, I got into a good flow of light sparring with my usual partner, this beast of a man who has years and years in this style.

Anyway, tonight was different because Wing Chun started to happen. Not the usual fare of how I use it in the clinch, but at boxing range. Three times instead of the usual parry of the jab with my (southpaw) forward hand, I was able to come around it and clear it with a tansau from the outside in while shifting in with a stiff jab to the totally undefended outside line. No thought, just reaction. At full speed.

Progress.

 

[drop bear]

Simultaneous attack and defense!

Ok, first of all, I train MMA with a white belt mentality. I work what I train there, and leave my existing skills at the door FOR THE MOST PART.

Tonight was sparring night, like every Thursday, but tonight was different. The Dutch kickboxing way of doing things, throwing, standing, moving, defending, etc is part of my muscle memory now. I don't need to think about how to move around attacks, where to step, when to throw, how to defend this or that. So anyway, I got into a good flow of light sparring with my usual partner, this beast of a man who has years and years in this style.

Anyway, tonight was different because Wing Chun started to happen. Not the usual fare of how I use it in the clinch, but at boxing range. Three times instead of the usual parry of the jab with my (southpaw) forward hand, I was able to come around it and clear it with a tansau from the outside in while shifting in with a stiff jab to the totally undefended outside line. No thought, just reaction. At full speed.

Progress.

Hitting the right range?

 

[Poppity]

Simultaneous attack and defense!

Ok, first of all, I train MMA with a white belt mentality. I work what I train there, and leave my existing skills at the door FOR THE MOST PART.

Tonight was sparring night, like every Thursday, but tonight was different. The Dutch kickboxing way of doing things, throwing, standing, moving, defending, etc is part of my muscle memory now. I don't need to think about how to move around attacks, where to step, when to throw, how to defend this or that. So anyway, I got into a good flow of light sparring with my usual partner, this beast of a man who has years and years in this style.

Anyway, tonight was different because Wing Chun started to happen. Not the usual fare of how I use it in the clinch, but at boxing range. Three times instead of the usual parry of the jab with my (southpaw) forward hand, I was able to come around it and clear it with a tansau from the outside in while shifting in with a stiff jab to the totally undefended outside line. No thought, just reaction. At full speed.

Progress.

Kudos to you, because applying wing chun when sparring is hard and in many ways is a completely different skill set to the Chi Sau and the drilling. Applying angling, footwork and range with wing chun under real pressure from the opponent is difficult and at our school people don't start doing it until at least three years after gentle non-pressurised interaction, as there is a tendency for people to just fight and overcome the opponent with strength as opposed technique.

I don't know if your sparring allows elbows but, if not, I wonder if you might see some limitations during sparring on what you would normally do to counter... but in turn I guess not using elbows will force you to examine other avenues already in your skill-set.

Anyway, I am really enjoying reading about your experiences during MMA sparring, so thank you for posting it.

 

[Martial D]

Hitting the right range?

Well partially. Partially I modified the way I throw it out. (The tansau).