Why until recently effective TMA practitioners were not represented in MMA?

[Tez3]

Then where is the argument?

I put out that a camp like tiger is the gold standard of martial arts training. The best martial artists doing the best training under the best coaching.

Simple as that.

Wado ryu does not have the equivalent. Most TMA,s dont.

Tez is trying to make some sort of point about that

No, what you keep saying is that TMA isn't as effective as MMA. You keep saying that MMA is trained harder than TMA's, well all professional athletes train harder than amateur ones, simple fact. I know a lot of people who train MMA 'lightly' who still have a fight a year. it's down to the person not the style.

Tiger Camp is professional, most martial artists aren't. it's isn't the epitome of martial arts at all, it's the epitome of professional fighters who do martial arts. Big difference. it's fit for it's purpose but it's not the purpose of other martial artists who train for reasons other than fighting, no comparison. As I said, you are comparing oranges to apples. Only a few people want to be pro fighters, many people who train MMA don't. Saying that because pro fighters train hard TMA is rubbish is just silly.


Btw there's not that many Aussies in Hollywood, more Brits actually and funnily enough more Americans!

 

[drop bear]

No, what you keep saying is that TMA isn't as effective as MMA. You keep saying that MMA is trained harder than TMA's, well all professional athletes train harder than amateur ones, simple fact. I know a lot of people who train MMA 'lightly' who still have a fight a year. it's down to the person not the style.

Tiger Camp is professional, most martial artists aren't. it's isn't the epitome of martial arts at all, it's the epitome of professional fighters who do martial arts. Big difference. it's fit for it's purpose but it's not the purpose of other martial artists who train for reasons other than fighting, no comparison. As I said, you are comparing oranges to apples. Only a few people want to be pro fighters, many people who train MMA don't. Saying that because pro fighters train hard TMA is rubbish is just silly.


Btw there's not that many Aussies in Hollywood, more Brits actually and funnily enough more Americans!

So because mma has professional fighters. They train harder and become better martial artists.

So mma makes better martial artists.

Why doesn't TMA represent well in MMA?

Because of the training.

I am not sure where the conflict is.

 

[Tez3]

So because mma has professional fighters. They train harder and become better martial artists.

So mma makes better martial artists.

Why doesn't TMA represent well in MMA?

Because of the training.

I am not sure where the conflict is.

Sigh, you don't get this do you?
MMA is TMA. MMA fighters aren't 'better' martial artists, they are professional athletes, it's not a reflection on the martial arts of those who aren't professional athletes, it just means that because the pro fighters earn their living by fighting they are good at fighting within the MMA ruleset.
Putting down people because they aren't pro fighters is ridiculous.

 

[drop bear]

Sigh, you don't get this do you?
MMA is TMA. MMA fighters aren't 'better' martial artists, they are professional athletes, it's not a reflection on the martial arts of those who aren't professional athletes, it just means that because the pro fighters earn their living by fighting they are good at fighting within the MMA ruleset.
Putting down people because they aren't pro fighters is ridiculous.

So martial artists who are good at fighting. Are not better than martial artists who are bad at fighting?

If a person has to get really good at martial arts to win a top martial arts fighting promotion. Then that is part of the vehicle that makes people better martial artists.

Is there anyone in wado-ryu training anything like the guys at tiger?

 

[Tez3]

So martial artists who are good at fighting. Are not better than martial artists who are bad at fighting?

If a person has to get really good at martial arts to win a top martial arts fighting promotion. Then that is part of the vehicle that makes people better martial artists.

Is there anyone in wado-ryu training anything like the guys at tiger?

People who train in Wado Ryu train karate, if they aren't interested in being professional fighters why would they train like a professional fighter?
You aren't getting this at all.

No one from a one style background will train like the people at Tiger do for MMA. If you train to be an MMA pro fighter it won't be in one style will it? You need to stop equating professional fighters training with that of people who don't fight for a living, it doesn't make them bad fighters at all.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

Which answers the overall question as to why TMA doesn't really represent well in MMA.

And this is reflected in other endeavors. So in Australia there is a disproportionate amount of time money and effort spent on training swimming. And so Australians are disproportionately better swimmers.

If you ever wonder why Australian actors over represent in Hollywood. Resources put in.

Nida.
NIDA - Home
Wow. That is a list.
Famous National Institute Of Dramatic Art Alumni


It is not genetics or just happens to be a bunch of individuals who woke up one morning being able to swim or act.



There is a cause and effect.

As I’ve said before, it’s a lot to do with what people put into it. I don’t know if something like NGA, adapted to focus on what’s effective in the cage, could produce elite fighters. I do know that something like NGA, trained with that intensity and commitment (without any other adjustment), will produce better fighters than the hobbyists like me.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

So because mma has professional fighters. They train harder and become better martial artists.

So mma makes better martial artists.

Why doesn't TMA represent well in MMA?

Because of the training.

I am not sure where the conflict is.

I think this statement conflates common TMA training (Whig I was referring to - mostly hobbyists) and the elites. Elites train differently, tend to cross-train more, and focus more on fitness. I think what Tez is getting at is that MMA is an extension of TMA. I tend to see it that way, too, though not quite the same way she does.

 

[Tez3]

I think this statement conflates common TMA training (Whig I was referring to - mostly hobbyists) and the elites. Elites train differently, tend to cross-train more, and focus more on fitness. I think what Tez is getting at is that MMA is an extension of TMA. I tend to see it that way, too, though not quite the same way she does.

Well that's because I am both TMA and MMA so can see the connections easily. Those who have just 'discovered' MMA think it's the best thing since sliced bread. they haven't experienced really competitive full contact kumite or done a proper 100 man kumite so to them everything MMA is modern and better, everything TMA is old fashioned and useless. It's an old story though and people forget that kickboxing came from karate and BJJ from judo which came from jujutsu.

 

[Yokozuna514]

As I’ve said before, it’s a lot to do with what people put into it. I don’t know if something like NGA, adapted to focus on what’s effective in the cage, could produce elite fighters. I do know that something like NGA, trained with that intensity and commitment (without any other adjustment), will produce better fighters than the hobbyists like me.

If you never heard of your style being represented in the cage in someway then it may not be currently gee

they haven't experienced really competitive full contact kumite or done a proper 100 man kumite

I would be interested to hear more about this Tez3. I didn't realize anyone outside of Kyokushin did 100 man kumites.

 

[Yokozuna514]

Ignore the first part of my post#89. It was an unfinished thought.

 

[Tez3]

If you never heard of your style being represented in the cage in someway then it may not be currently gee

I would be interested to hear more about this Tez3. I didn't realize anyone outside of Kyokushin did 100 man kumites.

It's become 'a thing' as they like to say, I know a few places that do it if the student wants.
This place does, DKK Karate - The Club and produces MMA fighters as well as karateka. Gavin Mulholland is an extremely good coach. DKK Karate - Shihan Gavin Mulholland, 6th Dan the writeup is entirely true. Neil Grove was one of his fighters.

 

[FriedRice]

Sigh, you don't get this do you?
MMA is TMA. MMA fighters aren't 'better' martial artists, they are professional athletes, it's not a reflection on the martial arts of those who aren't professional athletes, it just means that because the pro fighters earn their living by fighting they are good at fighting within the MMA ruleset.
Putting down people because they aren't pro fighters is ridiculous.

You're like the SJW of MA. Everyone gets a participation trophy.

 

[Tez3]

You're like the SJW of MA. Everyone gets a participation trophy.

and you didn't do reading comprehension as school did you? You didn't understand what I wrote so you write an inane, boring and vacuous remark to make up for your lack of acumen.

I would challenge you to a battle of wits but you, sir, are unarmed.

 

[Yokozuna514]

t's become 'a thing' as they like to say, I know a few places that do it if the student wants.
This place does, DKK Karate - The Club and produces MMA fighters as well as karateka. Gavin Mulholland is an extremely good coach. DKK Karate - Shihan Gavin Mulholland, 6th Dan the writeup is entirely true. Neil Grove was one of his fighters.

Thanks for the link. I went to check it out and saw that they are Goju Ryu guys. Goju Ryu is about as close to Kyokushin that Okinawan karate comes and considering that the Sensei there started in Kyokushin, it makes perfect sense that they would introduce the 100 man kumite for those that want to test themselves that way.

The 100 man kumite means something special to Kyokushin folks. There are not many that have completed it successfully.

 

[Tez3]

Thanks for the link. I went to check it out and saw that they are Goju Ryu guys. Goju Ryu is about as close to Kyokushin that Okinawan karate comes and considering that the Sensei there started in Kyokushin, it makes perfect sense that they would introduce the 100 man kumite for those that want to test themselves that way.

The 100 man kumite means something special to Kyokushin folks. There are not many that have completed it successfully.

They are good people at that club. I think it's become fashionable to want to do a 100 man kumite these days ( probably those MMA fighters lol) I've never seen one and personally 100 men is far too many for me .
Fashions change in martial arts, a while back everyone thought kickboxing was the only thing that 'worked', before that JKD and 'Kung Fu'. Nothing of course worked before that

 

[Yokozuna514]

They are good people at that club. I think it's become fashionable to want to do a 100 man kumite these days ( probably those MMA fighters lol) I've never seen one and personally 100 men is far too many for me .
Fashions change in martial arts, a while back everyone thought kickboxing was the only thing that 'worked', before that JKD and 'Kung Fu'. Nothing of course worked before that

100 man kumite = 2-1/2 hours of continuous fighting with the only break being to change opponents. Shihan Judd Reid is one of the latest karateka to complete it and make a documentary about his journey. If you have never seen it, it is worth a look.

I am sure there are other organizations that use this format as well but if you do Kyokushin and you say you did the 100 man kumite, it will be very apparent when you step on the floor.

 

[ShotoNoob]

You fight a boxer with your rear hand held low you’ll have a very short night.

That's not what Jony Hendricks said in his post-fight interview, UFC Fight Night 82.

Oh, and for all you MMA buffs, Hendricks defeated GSP and that Tristar super boxing.

I've heard all this before, including in my own dojo. Kata is King.

 

[ShotoNoob]

FOLLOWING ON:

You fight a boxer with your rear hand held low you’ll have a very short night.

Here's perhaps the correct way to state your post, to make it wholly legitimate.

FOLLOWING ON:

You [BUKA] fight a boxer with your rear hand held low you’ll have a very short night.

 

[ShotoNoob]

AND MORE FOLLOW UP:

You fight a boxer with your rear hand held low you’ll have a very short night.

Here, we'll do Taiyoku kata together. Follow along closely now. I'm on the left; you're on the right. What do we see with the hands up or down?

You [BUKA] fight a boxer with your rear hand held low you’ll have a very short night.

Taikyoku Shodan - Beginner Karate Kata
113,670 views

Twins Martial Arts
Published on Jun 12, 2015

And this is what we see in the beginner kata video. When I'm doing the kata, my hands are up; While you're doing the kata, your hands are down.

Problem Solved! But wait, there's more.

You see Buka, we karate traditionalist, us purists, well we have to put all the pieces of the karate puzzle together. Then it fulfills it's potential and becomes an art, one that will destroy the conventional MMA competitor. That's what's always in the back of my mind when I'm training karate. So here we go with some more traditionalist stuff.
Mai Shiina vs Bianca Walsleben @ 2014 Funakoshi Gichin Cup
1,037 views
[Linked earlier, page 4]

Time = 0:18-0:20. Bianca launchers her offense @ 0:18. She rushes forward with a typical alternating punch tactic to the face. The striking exchange itself takes 1 second, at most 2. Just as you say, Bianca gets countered square in the face by Mai. Boxer could do the same, easy right?

WRONG. Because you are picking apart the exchange finding fault instead of what karate tradition executes. That clever, MMA game planning mentality. Now let's examine this exchange by proper traditional karate principles. Bianca loses, so lets see what Bianca could have / should have done to win. 'Cause this is what I'm going to do to your boxer.

Number 1 : Mai won the exchange. So what Bianca could have done is what Mai did. Strike more dynamically. So even though Mai's hands are down (in your eyes), Mai clocked the oncoming boxer first & best. Boxer's the one's who is in for a short night.

Number 2: Bianca could have done what I did in the Taiyoku (ya know, kiddy kata according to rough, tough MMA people), and blocked Mai's counter punch, then strike'd. You were marching around in the kiddy kata like a kid, with your head wide open. I was blocking. And there's even more striking lessons in the kiddy kata on how the hands are used effectively in karate tradition, which then cycle us back to Number 1.

So in the kiddy kata no. 1. We have both the karate striking trained in the way that supports what Mai did ultimately; and we have alternative B, which is to block then strike.

The problem for MMA and sport fighting people is that they don't understand karate tradition and how it works. It's a mental discipline, not mere physical fighting technique.

Still not finished. Peek-a-Boo Boxing, whats' good about it.

 

[ShotoNoob]

The Peek-a-Boo Boxing style is one of a whole host of boxing sub-styles. I'm certainly no expert there. Listening to the Peek-a-Boo videos however, one of it's describe strength's is it's form of hands up guard. So there are different styles for a hands up guard among boxing enthusiasts.

Done right, the Peek-a-Boo boxers put up a strong guard / defense against blows to the face & head area. Seemingly impenetrable. This is what Boxer Joey Hadley employs so effectively against our poor representative of karate, the completely trounced State Karate Champion. If only he had been smart enough to do what you said. Put those hands up! But Buka, go the the opening screen capture of that Peek-a- Boo Hadley vs. State Karate Champion Match, and will see our karate champion does put his hands up in boxer's type guard - WITH JOE HADLEY PUNCHING RIGHT THROUGH THE GUARD!

CERTAINLY, the "hands up" guard is good, sound, standard defensive practice by boxing science. At the same time, the hands up guard has vulnerabilities of it's own accord. It's just not reliable against a good striker. And as we saw with Mai, good karate strikers are damn good.

Short MMA night for TMA karate? 'fraid not Buka.

Now back to Bianca vs. Mai. The second exchange, Bianca varies her offense with a more measured striking combo akin to the boxer's jab / cross. Mai's response (scores again for the win) starting from guard (Shotokan do have a kumite guard), validates everything I've said about Taikyoku kata and the entire traditional karate curriculum. It begins with not challenging the masters understanding, but yours.

Box away, Buka, box away.