What Did The UFC Really Prove?

[Disco]

I have seen this type of debate go on for years now. The MMA guys are tough hard nosed fighters, this I agree with. But, yes there is a but..... I will revert back to the very 1st event. Gracie fought some Japanese Karate person, don't recall the name. This billing was No Holds Barred Fighting. Well that title was far from the truth. Gracie had the Karate guy in the mount position and was throwing punches at his face. The karate guy was doing a decent job of fending off the blows. We watched this go on for at least 4 to 5 minutes. I kept saying, when is the karate guy going to remove Gracie from his mount position with a strike to the throat or an eye rake or a groin grab. Both hands of the karate guy were free. Needless to say, none of aformentioned responses happened. Why?, because those techniques were not allowed. So what's the bottom line derived from this? It was a set up. Who started this event? The Gracies! Who set up the rules? Again, the Gracies. How many times has the rules been changed or restructured for these fights since it's beginnings? RULES YOU SAY!!!... there's no rules...... Of course there's rules or shall we say things not allowed. Don't believe me, go check them for yourself. A real fight is for survival, a ring with a ref to intervene is a sporting event. By everyone's admission, fighters from varied styles had to restructure their training to include ground fighting techniques. Although not all that bad unto itself, any training is productive training to some extent, they were forced to go outside of their discipline because of rules. The only way anyone can be called the best, greatest, etc fighter is to have a real no holds barred - ANYTHING GOES throw down. Don't really forsee that ever happening, at least here in the U.S.

 

[MJS]

I can't believe I'm actually posting in the MMA forum. I figured I'd put my $.02 in. There is nothing inherent about grappling that makes it superior, but that being said, the environment of today has made grappling a premier art that has gone through a horrendously steep learning curve. Combine that with a traditional martial arts community that was both stagnant and framed in a comfort zone, and you have the perfect situation for the "world domination" of grapplers. The athleticism and realistic experience (and some brass cajones) of a modern grappler is what makes him so dangerous. People like Mas Oyama spent much of their youth learning all aspects of fighting and testing them on a daily basis against everything they could find in life. Anyone no matter how great they are in their own system needs to cross-train or they will get hammered. Someone mentioned Segal, he already had his butt handed to him by a grappler if I remember correctly, and then he asked for a few lessons. That is a the sign of a good martial artist, smart fighter and decent guy. That he asked to learn shows he can handle getting beat and has the drive, desire and openmindedness to learn something new. One guy that I didn't respect for many years was Norris. I always assumed he was the usual "This is my art and none is better. I am tough and one of the best fighters in the world because I win tournaments.", besides he was an actor. Later I learned that he was in the military and constantly cross-training. He worked in many arts some traditional, some combat oriented, later even grappling. He adapted as a fighter and never allowed himself to be limited by a single art. Definitly a guy I can respect, for an actor.

Very good post!! I've said it before and I'll say it again...I'm a huge fan of cross training and stress it to others as much as I can. If they dont want to do it, thats cool, but they're missing out on something very important.

As for Segal....yes, I heard the same thing, and I believe it was Lebell who choked him out. As for Norris...I give the man a ton of credit. Considering he already had a good background, he still kept an open mind and went to learn BJJ from the Machados. The same can be said for Inosanto.

As I said before in another post....even the best people can be beat!

Mike

 

[MJS]

I have seen this type of debate go on for years now. The MMA guys are tough hard nosed fighters, this I agree with. But, yes there is a but..... I will revert back to the very 1st event. Gracie fought some Japanese Karate person, don't recall the name. This billing was No Holds Barred Fighting. Well that title was far from the truth. Gracie had the Karate guy in the mount position and was throwing punches at his face. The karate guy was doing a decent job of fending off the blows. We watched this go on for at least 4 to 5 minutes. I kept saying, when is the karate guy going to remove Gracie from his mount position with a strike to the throat or an eye rake or a groin grab. Both hands of the karate guy were free. Needless to say, none of aformentioned responses happened. Why?, because those techniques were not allowed. So what's the bottom line derived from this? It was a set up. Who started this event? The Gracies! Who set up the rules? Again, the Gracies. How many times has the rules been changed or restructured for these fights since it's beginnings? RULES YOU SAY!!!... there's no rules...... Of course there's rules or shall we say things not allowed. Don't believe me, go check them for yourself. A real fight is for survival, a ring with a ref to intervene is a sporting event. By everyone's admission, fighters from varied styles had to restructure their training to include ground fighting techniques. Although not all that bad unto itself, any training is productive training to some extent, they were forced to go outside of their discipline because of rules. The only way anyone can be called the best, greatest, etc fighter is to have a real no holds barred - ANYTHING GOES throw down. Don't really forsee that ever happening, at least here in the U.S.

Yup...and this statement has been beat like a dead horse!!!!!!!! People seem to forget that although it said' NO Holds Barred' I really dont think that you could hold an event anywhere in the world that would allow an eye shot, biting, or the other 'street' shots. Again, this is a sport and the name went from NHB to MMA! The Japanese guy that you mention lost for one reason and one reason only....he had no ground skill!!!! An eye jab, groin kick, and bite are not secret techniques that only the stand up artists have access to. Do you not think that Rickson couldnt do an eye jab??? What about a hit to the groin?? Why is it that the stand up guys have to rely on THOSE techs. in order to win??? If they are that good with striking and kicking then it shouldnt make any difference.

Again, its a sport, and that being said, there are going to be rules.

Mike

 

[Disco]

Again, its a sport, and that being said, there are going to be rules.

No conflict there, we agree.....

The Japanese guy that you mention lost for one reason and one reason only....he had no ground skill!!!! An eye jab, groin kick, and bite are not secret techniques that only the stand up artists have access to. Do you not think that Rickson couldnt do an eye jab??? What about a hit to the groin?? Why is it that the stand up guys have to rely on THOSE techs. in order to win???

Why? because it's a way that they train. Grappling skills require strength and not everybody is equipped with that gift. Other wise the many other disciplines would not have emerged. We all would just be grapplers from the beginning. As for stand up skills, they do not allow direct knee strikes. That is a staple of many stand up fighting styles. No groin strikes. Again a staple. Throat strikes not allowed, but chokes are, which gives the edge to the strength of a grappler. If I'm not mistaken, elbow strikes have also been somewhat restricted. No small joint manipulations are allowed I believe. The Japanese guy had ground fighting skills, but not sport ground fighting. We all know that there is a difference. An anology that has been used is go into a ring with a boxer and you have to use boxing rules. The MA'ist will get his head handed to him. Go into a ring where tools are being restricted and you have the same problem, but to a lesser degree, but none the less a problem. So yes, Rickson could have used the very same techniques, but didn't....... Because he didn't want them done to him. Very understandable and frankly very smart, but that unto itself validates the point of contention. They weren't allowed. The first couple of fights was a learning curve for those that would choose to go into the ring. They inturn made adjustments for what was needed to compete...... operative word "compete", and overcame the advantage that the Gracie's had. So now we have the enternal debate that seems never ending. Bottom line is that there are two camps and they have there respective viewpoints. So I guess the really prudent thing to do is agree to disagree and still be friends.......

 

[hedgehogey]

WRONG. At the time of that match, all that deadly throat grabbing, eye raking crap was allowed. Gracie vs ichihara, right?

There are PLENTY of events where that stuff is allowed and it doesn't make a lick of difference.

So yes, Rickson could have used the very same techniques, but didn't....... Because he didn't want them done to him. Very understandable and frankly very smart, but that unto itself validates the point of contention.

No.

1: They were allowed.

and

2: Rickson preffered to finish his fights by his signature move, the mata leon. It wouldn't have made any difference if the guy on bottom had tried to eye gouge. He was UNDER RICKSON'S MOUNT.

There's two videos of challenge matches on bullshido.net (BJJ vs karate, MMA vs kung fu) where you can see guys trying to gouge from under mount and getting their arms snapped for their trouble.

 

[Disco]

There's only two answers to that.

1. If as you say they were allowed, then the Japanese fighter was not very well trained even in his choosen discipline. Which unto itself makes me wonder how and why he was admitted to the match.

2. It is highly doubtful that those techniques were allowed then. There not allowed now. I take it that you have never been on the receiving end of a shuto to the throat and I hope you never will be. There's also a very nice pressure point on the side of the throat that will make somebodies day if used. Again this was either not an option or bad training.

Gracie was yes in the mount position, with a leg wrap to boot. He was pressing down on the shoulder with one arm and punching with the other. Put yourself in the same position as the Karate guy. Both arms free to defend and what would be your choice of defense and escape, if as you say all things were allowed?

From the UFC web site, These are the fouls - Not Allowed.....
Butting with the head.
Eye gouging of any kind.
Biting.
Hair pulling.
Fish hooking.
Groin attacks of any kind.
Putting a finger into any orifice or into any cut or laceration on an opponent.
Small joint manipulation.
Striking to the spine or the back of the head.
Striking downward using the point of the elbow.
Throat strikes of any kind, including, without limitation, grabbing the trachea.
Clawing, pinching or twisting the flesh.
Grabbing the clavicle.
Kicking the head of a grounded opponent.
Kneeing the head of a grounded opponent.
Stomping a grounded opponent.
Kicking to the kidney with the heel.
Spiking an opponent to the canvas on his head or neck.
Throwing an opponent out of the ring or fenced area.
Holding the shorts or gloves of an opponent.
Spitting at an opponent.
Engaging in an unsportsmanlike conduct that causes an injury to an opponent.
Holding the ropes or the fence.
Using abusive language in the ring or fenced area.
Attacking an opponent on or during the break.
Attacking an opponent who is under the care of the referee.
Attacking an opponent after the bell has sounded the end of the period of unarmed combat.
Flagrantly disregarding the instructions of the referee.
Timidity, including, without limitation, avoiding contact with an opponent, intentionally or consistently dropping the mouthpiece or faking an injury.
Interference by the corner.
Throwing in the towel during competition.

 

[ace]

All I will say is this I compete in MMA I have Been training
Martial Arts Since I was 2.(On & off Seriously the Last 7 Years)
I am a Black Belt in two Martial Arts.(No Im Not a Master)

I have Met a few so called Masters that When Push Comes to Shove
Would Fold under the Pressure.

In the 1st UFC only Biting & Eye Pokes Were out.


Which in a slef Defence Case could prove useful
but if U base Your Training of the next 20 Years on This
U may Fall Short :asian:

 

[MJS]

Again, its a sport, and that being said, there are going to be rules.

No conflict there, we agree.....

Ok.

The Japanese guy that you mention lost for one reason and one reason only....he had no ground skill!!!! An eye jab, groin kick, and bite are not secret techniques that only the stand up artists have access to. Do you not think that Rickson couldnt do an eye jab??? What about a hit to the groin?? Why is it that the stand up guys have to rely on THOSE techs. in order to win???

Why? because it's a way that they train. Grappling skills require strength and not everybody is equipped with that gift.

Gotta disagree with you on that one. That is a very common misconception about grappling. Helio was a small man who refined the techs. to fit his body style. Technique will win over strength anyday!!!

Other wise the many other disciplines would not have emerged. We all would just be grapplers from the beginning. As for stand up skills, they do not allow direct knee strikes. That is a staple of many stand up fighting styles. No groin strikes. Again a staple. Throat strikes not allowed, but chokes are, which gives the edge to the strength of a grappler.

Again I disagree. You're basically saying, unless I'm misunderstanding, that unless the stand up guy does those strikes, then his skills are cut in half!! Let me ask you this. What do you think about adapting to the situation? Did you ever take into consideration the "What If" situation? When I'd teach a sparring class, rather than always do the same thing, I'd limit the students to things that they can/cant do.....just punches, just kicks, one person can punch while the other only kicks, any punch you want, but only a sidekick. Regardless of if they can do the eye gouge, throat strike, etc. they should still be able to defend themselves w/o doing those strikes.

As for chokes in BJJ...they are not or should not be attacking the throat, but rather the side of the neck. The idea is to cut off the blood flow, not the wind. Attacking the throat during a choke can lead to death.

If I'm not mistaken, elbow strikes have also been somewhat restricted. No small joint manipulations are allowed I believe.

Thats correct.

The Japanese guy had ground fighting skills, but not sport ground fighting.

Again, he should not have to rely on those strikes to save him. If he had any ground training, he should have been able to defend himself better than he did.

We all know that there is a difference. An anology that has been used is go into a ring with a boxer and you have to use boxing rules. The MA'ist will get his head handed to him. Go into a ring where tools are being restricted and you have the same problem, but to a lesser degree, but none the less a problem. So yes, Rickson could have used the very same techniques, but didn't....... Because he didn't want them done to him. Very understandable and frankly very smart, but that unto itself validates the point of contention. They weren't allowed. The first couple of fights was a learning curve for those that would choose to go into the ring. They inturn made adjustments for what was needed to compete...... operative word "compete", and overcame the advantage that the Gracie's had. So now we have the enternal debate that seems never ending. Bottom line is that there are two camps and they have there respective viewpoints. So I guess the really prudent thing to do is agree to disagree and still be friends.......

Again, keep in mind that we are talking about a sport!!!! There are going to be rules.

Mike

 

[MJS]

WRONG. At the time of that match, all that deadly throat grabbing, eye raking crap was allowed. Gracie vs ichihara, right?

Those strikes were allowed??? Are you sure about that??

There are PLENTY of events where that stuff is allowed and it doesn't make a lick of difference.

Really? Where???

Mike

 

[hedgehogey]

n

There's only two answers to that.

1. If as you say they were allowed, then the Japanese fighter was not very well trained even in his choosen discipline. Which unto itself makes me wonder how and why he was admitted to the match.

He was a champion and several degrees black belt. Look at the damn intro.

2. It is highly doubtful that those techniques were allowed then. There not allowed now. I take it that you have never been on the receiving end of a shuto to the throat and I hope you never will be.

I get shutoed in the throat all the time...AND I LIKE IT!

Anyway, what kind of striking power are you going to generate from UNDER MOUNT? He is SITTING ON YOUR CHEST. How in the world would you rotate your body?

There's also a very nice pressure point on the side of the throat that will make somebodies day if used.

"Make someone's day" as in "make them spray their shorts".

Again this was either not an option or bad training.

Did you watch the godamn fight? How about those videos I pointed you to? ALL the TMAists tried to gouge, elbow, attack the throat, etc.

Gracie was yes in the mount position, with a leg wrap to boot. He was pressing down on the shoulder with one arm and punching with the other. Put yourself in the same position as the Karate guy. Both arms free to defend and what would be your choice of defense and escape, if as you say all things were allowed?

Well first things first, I wouldn't extend my arm, which is the first thing you learn in BJJ. I would try to hip bump him off balance and shrimp out if neccesary. I would NOT reach for his throat, since that would give him several armlocks.

From the UFC web site, These are the fouls - Not Allowed.....

Those are the rules TODAY, which is the fault of ******* congressmen. None of those were rules when the UFC started.

 

[hedgehogey]

Those strikes were allowed??? Are you sure about that??

Yes.

Really? Where???

Mike

Russian absolute, possibly brazil vale tudo, a comp in paraguay, most brazilian tourneys have one or two rules. Also, the gracie challenge.

 

[MJS]

Yes.



Russian absolute, possibly brazil vale tudo, a comp in paraguay, most brazilian tourneys have one or two rules. Also, the gracie challenge.

Thanks for the clarification.

Mike

 

[Disco]

He was a champion and several degrees black belt. Look at the damn intro.

Well I did not only look at the "damn" intro, I actually watched the fight. Why do you think I made all these references to what the karate guy could have done but didn't....

You have been hit in the throat and "you like it"?.

So strength is not any part of the equation of being a grappler, only technique is the key. Very interesting. Then why are there weight classes for the fights?

Your viewpoints and opinions are yours and you feel strongly about them. Good for you. Your willing to stand behind them and debate, also good. We will not have a meeting of the minds on this subject, so suffice to say we agree to disagree.

P.S. On a side note. I have met one of the Gracie's. Not sure if it was the gentlemen you referenced or one of his brothers. Anyway, he was of average size as you eluded to. When I shook his hand my hand went into a vice.

 

[MJS]

So strength is not any part of the equation of being a grappler, only technique is the key. Very interesting. Then why are there weight classes for the fights?

Let me clarify. Why do you think that while grappling, these guys get so tired? One of the reasons could be that they are trying to out muscle the other guy. Watch Royce when he fights. He stays relaxed, calm, and then when the other guy gets tired, Royce moves in for the finish. The same with Rickson. I've never seen either of them muscle techniques. As for the weight classes....that is part of the new rules. The first few events did not have weight classes. Again, its the technical part that is important. Not saying that strength isnt, but to rely just on that...not good!

Your viewpoints and opinions are yours and you feel strongly about them. Good for you. Your willing to stand behind them and debate, also good. We will not have a meeting of the minds on this subject, so suffice to say we agree to disagree.

Thats fine. I have never had the intention of changing anyones mind about anything. Just simply trying to have a discussion.

P.S. On a side note. I have met one of the Gracie's. Not sure if it was the gentlemen you referenced or one of his brothers. Anyway, he was of average size as you eluded to. When I shook his hand my hand went into a vice.

Again, returning to the strength debate. Helio is a small man. His strength is not going to match that of someone like Mark Coleman. But, Coleman is a big man and will use his strength to aid him. Look at the Smith/Coleman fight. Smith wore him down slowly, and then finished him with kicks. The point is, is that the harder you try to muscle on a tech. the more tired you're gonna get. I've rolled with guys that out weighed me and were much stronger, and they always do the same thing...try to out muscle me. I stay relaxed, wait until they start to get tired and then apply my move.

Mike

 

[RCastillo]

There are many good points, but one bad one; the money was, and is horrible. If I'm gonna fight like that, the money better be outstanding. If it's good enough for Pro Boxers, it should be the same for FullContact Fighters. :asian:

 

[hedgehogey]

He was a champion and several degrees black belt. Look at the damn intro.

Well I did not only look at the "damn" intro, I actually watched the fight. Why do you think I made all these references to what the karate guy could have done but didn't....

Then look at the fights on bullshido. NOW.

You have been hit in the throat and "you like it"?.

You heard me.

So strength is not any part of the equation of being a grappler, only technique is the key. Very interesting. Then why are there weight classes for the fights?

Don't ****ing kid yourself. Strength is a factor in everything. It's LESS of a factor in grappling than in striking. But as a 150 pounder, I know that it matters quite a bit.

P.S. On a side note. I have met one of the Gracie's. Not sure if it was the gentlemen you referenced or one of his brothers. Anyway, he was of average size as you eluded to. When I shook his hand my hand went into a vice.

Seeing as they've been grappling since they were kids, that's to be expected.

 

[sgtmac_46]

I'd love to see Tank Abbott go up against a "REAL Martial Arts master"!

The likely result would be that a "REAL Martial Arts master" wouldn't fight Tank Abbott, content as they are to be worshipped by those around them, and make excuses about the "deadliness" of their art. The truth is, play fighting for years in a Dojo does not necessarily make one a better fighter. Tank Abbott had been wrestling since he was 9 years old and boxing for 9 years before he stepped in to the UFC ring. He'd also been honing his skills in the street with real fights. Something you can't get in most dojo's. The Samurai weren't dangerous because they sat around breaking boards. They were dangerous because they were bloodied, and the ones that survived were born again hard. That's the difference. When you live in an artificial world, it's easy to convince people you're the best. Few are willing to test it. I'll be the first to say that Tank Abbott is not a nice guy. But he's never backed down from a fight, even if he eventually lost them. I can't say the same for many alleged "masters". Being a 10th Dan in a given style doesn't mean you're a good fighter, it means you've mastered the technical skills of your art. A yellow belt with talent may beat a master in a real fight. Talent, strength and natural ability are also factors, not just technical skills. Further, untested theoretical technical skills do not necessarily equal good strategy and technique. Dismissing a "street fighter" because he has no formal training is a mistake for many martial artists. Just because they haven't been practicing their fancy "Axe-kick" in the dojo, doesn't mean they don't know what works. More importantly, many "street fighters" have been in numerous no-holds barred real street fights, and have developed, through trial and error, simple techniques that work well in a simple and direct violent confrontation, where martial artists have been learning untested theory. This isn't to say that you can't teach effective techniques that work in the street, but those techniques must be grounded in reality, which is where the UFC comes in. It is the closest thing to a real fight without visiting the local bar. My guess would be that Tank Abbott would probably brutalize many alleged masters. He has real world experience, and he doesn't make excuses (well, not many, though i've heard a few excuses for losing, he keeps coming back) and he'd likely put many masters in the hospital. What's more to the point, most "Masters" know this, and would likely not get in the ring with him. They'd make some statement about how deadly they are as a master, and back out.

 

[RMACKD]

The first three UFC's allowed everything except biting and eye gouging but even those techniques were not completely illegal. You would have to pay a small fee to the other fighter if you did those techniques. Gordeau bit Gracie and ended up being coked after he tapped out for his troubles. Trying to eye gouge a guy on top of you is begging for an arm bar. Even if it does land it will be light and chances are it will piss the guy off and get him to eye gouge your eyes which he will have better access to because of his superior position. In the events that allowed eye gouges and biting only one ended that way. One of the guys studied reality self defense and the other karate and al they did was attempt throat strikes and eye gouges but these techniques did not have an deadly affect that ended the fight right away but one of the guys did lose some of his vision. I think this fight migh have been won from a decision or punches though that happened after the eye gouging but I am not sure. I will have to re-watch it. Anyways the reality sd guy won and went on to face a 18 year old Vitor Belfort who destroyed his bigger opponent with super fast punches. Steven Seagal has not ony been beat up by Lebell bt he has also been beat by two other guys who were both untrained. I do not believe He Il Cho or sny other of the guys mentioned would do good either.

 

[sgtmac_46]

The first three UFC's allowed everything except biting and eye gouging but even those techniques were not completely illegal. You would have to pay a small fee to the other fighter if you did those techniques. Gordeau bit Gracie and ended up being coked after he tapped out for his troubles. Trying to eye gouge a guy on top of you is begging for an arm bar. Even if it does land it will be light and chances are it will piss the guy off and get him to eye gouge your eyes which he will have better access to because of his superior position. In the events that allowed eye gouges and biting only one ended that way. One of the guys studied reality self defense and the other karate and al they did was attempt throat strikes and eye gouges but these techniques did not have an deadly affect that ended the fight right away but one of the guys did lose some of his vision. I think this fight migh have been won from a decision or punches though that happened after the eye gouging but I am not sure. I will have to re-watch it. Anyways the reality sd guy won and went on to face a 18 year old Vitor Belfort who destroyed his bigger opponent with super fast punches. Steven Seagal has not ony been beat up by Lebell bt he has also been beat by two other guys who were both untrained. I do not believe He Il Cho or sny other of the guys mentioned would do good either.

Agreed. One of the greatest things the UFC proved was the realization that simply calling yourself a master and having an entourage doesn't make you the greatest fighter in the world. Before the UFC people were impressed by the mysticism of someone like Steven Seagal. The UFC made it very clear what worked, and more importantly, what was just silly. Anything that seperates the real thing from the snake oil salesman is worth the price of admission.

 

[judokapont]

The UFC to me personally proved a great deal about real fighting, firstly i have full respect for masters of all styles i admire their dedication and skill but what people have to accept is that alot of these styles have no direct coralation to real fighting, i know its a well worn argument which will never cease but many martial arts do not work TKD included my friend. I have worked as a doorman for 13 years and have been involved in to many REAL fights to remember and i dont think training in TKD would of helped me in many of them, i have worked with guys with black belts in TKD and wing chung etc.. and ive seen them be beaten to the floor at close range and gouged bitten and firmly spanked by thugs with no formal traing apart from football violence. Being able to fight once you are being hit,controlling your fear and naked brutal aggresion is what in my experiance wins fights. If you combine these factors with a solid skill base in dirty boxing chuck in some ground skills then your getting somewhere. This is what you see in the UFC, almost real fighting, kung Fu TKD etc great for the movies dont bring it on the street or the octagon for that matter!