Why until recently effective TMA practitioners were not represented in MMA?

[ShotoNoob]

I really like this guy. I think he's wrong a number of issues regarding TMA (surprise). IMO, though, he convinces me that he's trying to get to the truth(s) and isn't afraid to put himself out there with this strange thing called explanations. It's also true he has moderated his criticism of traditional martial arts over time.

He states he hails from a kick boxing background. The gym he runs is specifically for MMA. He's very, very athletically talented, should you catch a glimpse of him doing workouts.

His criticisms of traditional marital arts often hold true or have the ring of truth to them in certain aspects. Much of these I explain by karetaka having poor understanding & by trainiing mproperly. He thinks through his arguments before he states them and applies analysis of one kind or another. What, in principle, everyone should be doing.

I thought he was kinda corny or cheesy at first, however, he kind of grows on you with his didactics (word?). I do believe that he's very serious about training MMA. I'd kill him with karate though - maybe.

 

[ShotoNoob]

A. So if anyone can train to fight, why did so many tma fighters get their butts kicked?

B. Bad training mostly. TMA tend to train to "do" TMA. Breaking boards, kata, powerful strikes, chi sau etc. When they fight they often pick formats designed to highlight their niche skills. Taekwondo is all kicking, wing chun starts from chi sau rolling, shotokan pulls the fist back to the hip etc.

C. Doing these skill based exercises without exposure to other methods easily convinces people that they have more ability than they do.

D. Add to this the fact that people who want to fight usually go to combat sports, not TMA, especially after all the YouTube videos of TMA losses. That means you have a much smaller pool of fight contenders to choose from.

E. Then you have to consider that tma has no direct route into mma. You go to a karate school, you enter karate tournaments. If you dream of fighting ufc, you go to an mma school and get taught to fight a different way.

F. More TMA fighters will come, but it will take strong talent and strong personality to persist with tma methods in a non tma training environment.

Another poster who covers a lot of ground in a single post.

Your "D." is a point which I tried to fold into another thread, some of the flavor of that kind of influence. "B." is where I want to focus.

I go to a TMA class, and do some TMA stuff. Then I go to an MMA school and get floored by the novice boxer as I step forward and do a down block and middle punch. I tried to block the boxer later, but found I was too slow. Smacked upside the head again. To be short, when I was at the TMAschool, how well did I understand and absorb the theory of TMA training? And then train a competent understanding competently?

To be brief, my position is that a lot if not the large majority of TMA practitioners who go into MMA either didn't understand what they were supposed to be training while engaged in TMA, or couldn't make the transition from the physicality of training to the mental disicpline base sought for in the traditional martial arts. Hence, became or reverted to that old adage, "kick boxers in pajamas."

Hence MMA training which produces well conditioned, physically fit competitors who are fairly aggressive in the least armed with some wrestling, boxing, Muay Thai, BJJ some working know how... flattens the TMA stylist who doesn't know what the heck he(she) is doing. Squash match so much of the time. Game over.

Here's a vid to illustrate. TMA gets crushed.

 

[drop bear]

By the way when someone says TMA. I generally think demos, drills and kata.

When I think of mma I think of fitness, contact sparring and resistance.

Now regardless of the style I think these two methods are what separates good martial artists from bad ones.

 

[ShotoNoob]

Joe lewis vs greg baines Kickboxing
487 views

giuseppe previti
Published on Dec 18, 2016

The famous Joe Lewis narrates. Joe reports a number of insights. Two I feel are important are:

ONE: Greg Baines, despite his stupendous physique and karate competition record, Joe Lewis says Greg wasn't really putting uumphh into his punches. The point fighting hangover?

TWO: He mentions Bruce Lee taught a double hook which Joe used to get the KO. The double hook goes low to the body, then upstairs to the head. Bing, BANG. Worked like a charm. Joe then moves into finish, Greg was apparently pretty well out.

Walla, the superiority of JKD, what Joes says Bruce was training him in, over that gawd awful traditional Shotokan karate. Later MMA same experience & viewpoint.

Now here's my take.

FIRST. Look at the phyisque on Greg Baines. He's DC & Jon Jones in one. This guy could physically smash or snap most anybody in two no matter what technique he used. Certainly me. So could it be possible, is it likely that Shotokan karate wasn't the source of Greg's karate competition success, but rather his overpowering strength in that physique? Now same question for MMA. Is it Jon Jones natural 1 in a million athletic physique which makes Greg Jackson's reputation for producing champions, or is it Greg's gaidojitsu creation which is the secret? We don't hear so much about gaido jitsu any more.... Hhmmmm.

SECOND. Joe Lewis himself reports that Greg just wasn't that strong in his technique. His strikes didn't have great impact. So Joe was able to absorb them without any ill effect. Was Greg having a bad day? Did Greg suffer from point fighting syndrome... the ole pillow hands striking? Did Greg's practice of Shotokan depend on using a lot of heavy muscle and tension which robbed his strength? What else, something was wrong, enough for this wrongness to register with Joe Lewis. Maybe Gregg wasted too much time on that ugh, kata.

THIRD. And this is what really gets me about all those who have "discovered" and/or "created" that new special martial art. Joes' whole point about Bruce Lee "master tactician." REally?

THE JKD DOUBLE STRIKE. A CASE STUDY.

PART A. Two Immediate Strikes.
Basics - Double Punch in Front Stance - Brisbane Taekwondo Centre
2,221 views

brisbanemartialarts
Published on Feb 27, 2013

Okay, I'm sure I can find a boxing vid with a say, double jab. Double strikes have been in boxing for what nigh on two hundred years of formal boxing. Take TKD, since WWII era at least. Way before Bruce Lee on both counts.

So the principle of a double strike has been around forever, colloquially speaking. No kidding. Double strikes aren't some new martial art technique. Sorry MMA / JKD fans.

PART B. THE LEVEL CHANGE.

Just for all of those who eschew kata, karate practice typically incorporates these kinds of kumite drills. I hate them but that's me.
WKF KARATE-KUMITE TRAINING FOR COMPETITION-KARATE KLUB GEPARD
58,265 views

Dragan Lakicevic
Published on Aug 18, 2017

Wait, did I see what I just saw? Noooo. Level changes?!!??? Sometimes they punch to the head. And other times they punch to the midsection. Kicks too. Good thing JKD taught karate what to do. Except karate pre-dates JKD. Boxing video same no problem.

If Greg Bains, good day or bad, wants to march around posing in Shotokan form, throw a technique here & there at super tough Joe Lewis and hope that works... that's up to him. Joe himself mentions how both were conditioned to the gills. So maybe Greg found himself in a rather new experience facing a competitor who brought physical talent which matched or exceeded his won? Maybe. That could turn the tide of battle, MMA would wholly agree.

One thing for sure, Greg was facing a superbly conditioned opponent who trained how to fight actively and employ technique tactically. Sounds just like traditional karate 1-steps to me.

If you are going to do traditional karate, don't regurgitate rituals. Learn what you're supposed to do, like Joe Lewis did by Bruce Lee's JKD.

There's your source of 90% of the failure of TMA in MMA, arguably speaking. Dealing with "level change" some new MMA experience heretofore unimaginable by the traditional martial arts? Silly MMA people, silly.

 

[ShotoNoob]

By the way when someone says

A. TMA. I generally think demos, drills and kata.

When I think of

B. mma I think of fitness, contact sparring and resistance.

Now regardless of the style I think these two methods are what separates good martial artists from bad ones.

Hey drop bear, that's a very good way characterization to shed light on the issues. I don't agree with your characterization re good / bad, which I believe is pretty much in line with MMA thinking and the full contact school of fighting & training camp. I believe both A. & B. are or can be effective ways to train.

Advantages & disadvantages to both in a manner of speaking. Trade offs a better descriptor.

The problem with A. isn't A.'s make up per se, it's the mindset of ignorance with which practitioners approach A. This has been discussed and sliced & diced in forums and martial arts schools all over the place and over all kinds of time.

Vid illustration again. And OMGawd, here's a karate instructor doing one punch then another - two punches! He also demonstrates two Wado-ryu blocks (some difference from Shotokan blocking), and OMGawd............again, level changes. Middle then Low!!!! AHHHH, MMA falls over in shock.
Outer block, Lower block, reverse punch. Wado ryu Karate.
1,475 views

Sensei shaun lanham
Published on Sep 29, 2013

Now there is some defensive objective and along with that some defensive nature to these kinds of blocks. A boxer MMA coach can say, "but the head is wide open, begging for a knock out!" And by boxing principle he's dead right. The answer?

Traditional karate isn't boxing. It has different principles (some similar same) and so the blocks are different in form. It's not the form of the technique, it's principle of what we in karate are trying to accomplish with these blocks. Like we block when a block works and strike when a strikes works. Not going around waving our arms magically the way they were demonstrated, magically expecting our opponent to automatically put his punch into our block so the block works.

MMA training works and does certain things right. Traditional karate training works better in potential, key words in potential, when you learn what you are really supposed to do, train that properly, and then do it properly. The latter is much more taxing to accomplish than conventional MMA training... and so hence typically fails against MMA. That's my theorem on the efficacy of TMA in MMA.

BOTTOM LINE:
Greg Baines against Joe Lewis proved my point. Greg didn't necessarily lose because Shotokan karate is inferior for full contact, Joe won because his JKD rendition was understood, learned, trained properly, and then Joe went out in a mentally disciplined way and did it.

 

[ShotoNoob]

SHIINA IN 2010:
2010　JKA All Japan female kumite final Shiina vs Tanabe(halfway)

tsuruhimeja
Published on Jun 27, 2010

Notice how Shiina's opponent is stalking her... the look of concentration of deciding when to move. The opponent snaps a beautiful leg kick into the waist. What is Shiina's response? Was that very sharp leg kick a technique or a tactic including say a level change set up? Could be either or more, no?

Notice how the Shotokan stylist's hold their guard hands low. Their head is by boxing, wide open. In principle though, is the head open or guarded or both?

Notice Shiina's composure upon the opponent's all out offense. Doesn't blink an eye (figuring speaking) or miss a beat, lands the perfect counter punch very fast accurate to a "T." Then gets smacked hard as the opponent's aggression barrels in unchecked (a foul). Shiina, calm, cool, collected circles off the mat and returns seconds later shaking it off gets ready to go. A girl.

Why did Shiina prevail? Because she knows what to do with her Shotokan karate. Her opponent is no slouch, either. In full contact rules, maybe Shiina's opponent would have won the round. Joanna Jedrzejczyk you thought Rose was a handfull!

EDIT: Notice here, how the opponent's are employing more stationary stances. This is the more traditional form, as opposed to all that hyper bouncing mobility so often seen in tournament or even in-class free sparring.

EDIT2: The dynamics of these matches are fascinating once you are schooled in what to look for in karate power. One mistake, one miscalculation can cost you the entire match. Just like the analogy of the full contact knock out.

 

[drop bear]

Hey drop bear, that's a very good way characterization to shed light on the issues. I don't agree with your characterization re good / bad, which I believe is pretty much in line with MMA thinking and the full contact school of fighting & training camp. I believe both A. & B. are or can be effective ways to train.

Advantages & disadvantages to both in a manner of speaking. Trade offs a better descriptor.

The problem with A. isn't A.'s make up per se, it's the mindset of ignorance with which practitioners approach A. This has been discussed and sliced & diced in forums and martial arts schools all over the place and over all kinds of time.

Vid illustration again. And OMGawd, here's a karate instructor doing one punch then another - two punches! He also demonstrates two Wado-ryu blocks (some difference from Shotokan blocking), and OMGawd............again, level changes. Middle then Low!!!! AHHHH, MMA falls over in shock.
Outer block, Lower block, reverse punch. Wado ryu Karate.
1,475 views

Sensei shaun lanham
Published on Sep 29, 2013

Now there is some defensive objective and along with that some defensive nature to these kinds of blocks. A boxer MMA coach can say, "but the head is wide open, begging for a knock out!" And by boxing principle he's dead right. The answer?

Traditional karate isn't boxing. It has different principles (some similar same) and so the blocks are different in form. It's not the form of the technique, it's principle of what we in karate are trying to accomplish with these blocks. Like we block when a block works and strike when a strikes works. Not going around waving our arms magically the way they were demonstrated, magically expecting our opponent to automatically put his punch into our block so the block works.

MMA training works and does certain things right. Traditional karate training works better in potential, key words in potential, when you learn what you are really supposed to do, train that properly, and then do it properly. The latter is much more taxing to accomplish than conventional MMA training... and so hence typically fails against MMA. That's my theorem on the efficacy of TMA in MMA.

BOTTOM LINE:
Greg Baines against Joe Lewis proved my point. Greg didn't necessarily lose because Shotokan karate is inferior for full contact, Joe won because his JKD rendition was understood, learned, trained properly, and then Joe went out in a mentally disciplined way and did it.

Ok. Lets put it this way. Compare the absolute best training you could do under a Wado-ryu banner. To this.

 

[Tez3]

Then I go to an MMA school and get floored by the novice boxer as I step forward and do a down block and middle punch.

Why would you do that? don't you spar in the TMA class?

Wado Ryu is my style, when we spar (as in kumite) we don't do kata movements, it's much more like kickboxing ( which came from karate). No one does such a long stance. I would also say that the video posted isn't like Wado but more Shotokan, we have much shorter more upright stances, those were too low and long. We also don't 'block' a lot but rather deflect a useful technique to be able to do, we use elbows a lot as well, spinning elbows are just nasty.
There can be no disputing the authenticity of this though considering who is in the video. In Wado nothing else would be correct.

 

[ShotoNoob]

Why would you do that? don't you spar in the TMA class?

I was just putting up a superficial example of people walking into a TMA school, taking some lessons to 'try it out,' without making the necessary investment in the art. Then expecting whatever they learned to be immediately applicable. I've seen this mentality, most recently at an Isshin Ryu Club I checked out. One of the newer students fit this bill. Got creamed in sparring with a kick boxer.

Wado Ryu is my style, when we spar (as in kumite) we don't do kata movements, it's much more like kickboxing ( which came from karate). No one does such a long stance. I would also say that the video posted isn't like Wado but more Shotokan, we have much shorter more upright stances, those were too low and long. We also don't 'block' a lot but rather deflect a useful technique to be able to do, we use elbows a lot as well, spinning elbows are just nasty.

I refer to Shotokan karate as the traditional karate model for a number of reasons. As a karate style, it's not on my favorite list. There are numerous aspects I don't like about it. Shotokan's low stances in practice a lot of practitioners object to as you mentioned in your commentaty.

I'm not real studied up on the major styles of Japanese karate. TMU, one major difference of Wado ryu was the incorporation of jujutsu into the original Shotokan karate. The goal was to provide an alternative, to offset the head-on aggressiveness which delimits Shotokan's practice in many ways. Hence, Wado is more tactical. I also find it amusing that MMA claims to bring on a "new thinking" in accessing multiple arts when here we had Japanese karate masters taking this route during the WW II era.

How your organization practices Wado ryu with the kick boxing emphasis is also very common among certain karate schools in my area. Kata is so not attractive to this kind of audience. I also feel that MMA competitors should pay more attention to training specifically with kick-boxing schools, because of their possibly better technical depth and focus.

There can be no disputing the authenticity of this though considering who is in the video. In Wado nothing else would be correct.[link omitted]

One of the complaints so often voiced about Shotokan is the rigid mindset of the instruction. This can happen anywhere, but it really pops up with Shotokan training. I encourage any karate practitioner to review the entire curriculum and consider all the teachings. The way in which a particular dojo or instructor approaches the art may or may not encompass the art. Here's an example. Shotokan Precept No. 17.

Beginners must master low stance and posture, natural body positions are for the advanced.

The character of Shotokan is supposed to change as one becomes "advanced." Unfortunately, traditional karate spells out a laundry list of hap haphazard ideals and principles in trying to elevate the practice of martial arts. So the burden is placed upon the practitioner on how to decipher and put all this together on a very subjective plane.

 

[ShotoNoob]

Wado Ryu is my style, when we spar (as in kumite) we don't do kata movements, it's much more like kickboxing ( which came from karate).

The absence of the range of kata movements in kumite is a general practice. This is for a number of reasons, including fighting using numerous kata movements would sparring performance to become much more complicated, hence difficult.

I myself make it a point to free spar with 'kata,' however, this really is mostly with kihon technique and stances and so one. Though conventional wisdom is that kihon karate is impractical and doesn't work in real time, this is false. You have to develop your mind and put karate principles into use properly.

One of the ways my practice in sparring differs then from kickboxing, is that I use a front punch just like in Shotokan's taiyouku katas, instead the often seen boxer jab by kick boxing. The front or forward punch is the 1st kihon punch taught in our curriculum although it may be trained with a horse stance for starters.

 

[ShotoNoob]

Shogun Rua knocks out Lyoto Machida
55,783 views

Ok. Lets put it this way. Compare the absolute best training you could do under a Wado-ryu banner. To this.

[link omitted]

No, that's really for the individual to decide. Privately, I call Muay Thai, "Dumb" Thai.

Muay Thai has enjoyed a lot of success in MMA. I especially enjoy the MMA matches with the karate based stylists, like Machida, pitted against the Muay Thai fighters. If there is anything Muay Thai MMA fighters are good at, it's exposing crap karate performance in MMA.

Jonathan Silva
Published on May 9, 2010

It's important to note, Rua outclasses Machida on a physique basis.

Prior to this, Machida wiped out Thiago Silva, a Muay Thai stylist. The latter, really a plodding bruiser.

TMU, lately, Muay Thai has fallen out of favor as the "it" striking art for MMA. Which underscords my criticism of MMA as some standard for martial arts. MMA functions as a test, not a standard. The preferences and successes in MMA follow fads and fickle attraction of a style or styles, based on what particular MMA orgs. and match makers favor or try to adapt at any one time.

We see this confirmed (to an extent) with a number of the better, championship level MMA competitors leaving camps and moving to others, typically with more specialized training or trainer credentials.

 

[Tez3]

How your organization practices Wado ryu with the kick boxing emphasis is also very common among certain karate schools in my area.

Ah no, that's not what I meant, it's the other way around. Kick boxing came from karate, not karate copying kick boxing.

I'm not talking about Muay Thai though which I've also done.

 

[Tez3]

Ok. Lets put it this way. Compare the absolute best training you could do under a Wado-ryu banner.

I wouldn't say that what you saw in that video was Wado Ryu though, the curriculum in Wado includes throws, take downs, joint locks etc because it contains a lot of Jujutsu. Sparring hard has always been encouraged, it's the main difference between Shotokan and Wado Ryu and one of the reason why Ohtsuka Sensei started his own style. it's a hugely practical style for self defence and kumite.

 

[ShotoNoob]

I wouldn't say that what you saw in that video was Wado Ryu though, the curriculum in Wado includes throws, take downs, joint locks etc because it contains a lot of Jujutsu. Sparring hard has always been encouraged, it's the main difference between Shotokan and Wado Ryu and one of the reason why Ohtsuka Sensei started his own style. it's a hugely practical style for self defence and kumite.

Well as far as Japanese karate goes, what limited I know, I thought the video was good. As you've stated, there has been frequent criticism of Shotokan as being too well, Shotokan, for self defense.

One of my answer is to look at Shotokan's form & emphasis, then ask yourself what they are trying to accomplish. I feel a lot of that is conditioning, physical fitness strangely just like MMA places so much weight on.

From a self defense aspect, the jujutsu dimension incorporated with actual sparring would better prepare for that civilian self defense which is spoken of. Shotokan is trying to simplify karate application in some sense. I call Shotokan the KISS karate.

The 'hard' sparring as a convention with Wado ryu I'm not familiar with that. The Japanese Shotokan practitioners have been reported to engage in spirited sparring exercises. Kinda hard asses it's been told.

My overall feeling is that if one explores the universe of traditional karate, you will find much alignment with practices which are either adopted by MMA, or which align with MMA objectives yet more traditionally principled. Wado ryu by your practices being a fine example.

 

[Tez3]

The 'hard' sparring as a convention with Wado ryu I'm not familiar with that. The Japanese Shotokan practitioners have been reported to engage in spirited sparring exercises. Kinda hard asses it's been told.

Funakoshi by all accounts didn't like sparring, he didn't want his students doing it, Ohtsuka did, he thought sparring was good training, it's one of the reasons they split and Wado Ryu was formed.
In Wado we don't usually have mats to train the throws takedowns etc so get used to pain quite early.

 

[Buka]

BOTTOM LINE:
Greg Baines against Joe Lewis proved my point. Greg didn't necessarily lose because Shotokan karate is inferior for full contact, Joe won because his JKD rendition was understood, learned, trained properly, and then Joe went out in a mentally disciplined way and did it.

Joe won because he was the far better fighter. At that time one of the best Karate fighters in the country.

I really enjoyed watching that. Some legendary folks make appearances in that clip. Awesome, thanks for posting it.

 

[ShotoNoob]

Funakoshi by all accounts didn't like sparring, he didn't want his students doing it, Ohtsuka did, he thought sparring was good training, it's one of the reasons they split and Wado Ryu was formed.
In Wado we don't usually have mats to train the throws takedowns etc so get used to pain quite early.

Your reply just reinforces how MMA competitors, if they would broaden their horizons, could locate compatible TMA based training.

Personally I'm the Funakoshi / kata camp. For the far majority of practitioners, however, the pressure testing & reality check of the kumite component; I believe the benefits can't be denied. Both Shotokan and Wado ryu moved to this conclusion. And the traditional karates generally as a group too.

 

[drop bear]

I wouldn't say that what you saw in that video was Wado Ryu though, the curriculum in Wado includes throws, take downs, joint locks etc because it contains a lot of Jujutsu. Sparring hard has always been encouraged, it's the main difference between Shotokan and Wado Ryu and one of the reason why Ohtsuka Sensei started his own style. it's a hugely practical style for self defence and kumite.

Yeah. It doesn't really matter if it is or isn't.

The standard of training and the standard of martial artist participating won't be as high as the guys in that camp.

And that is what consistently creates the best martial artists.

And because there is no vehicle to create the best martial artists. TMA,s just don't get people to the standard where they could fight and win in the top promotions.

 

[Tez3]

Your reply just reinforces how MMA competitors, if they would broaden their horizons, could locate compatible TMA based training.

Personally I'm the Funakoshi / kata camp. For the far majority of practitioners, however, the pressure testing & reality check of the kumite component; I believe the benefits can't be denied. Both Shotokan and Wado ryu moved to this conclusion. And the traditional karates generally as a group too.

I would agree with you if I didn't already know that many MMA people like myself come from TMA, just about all do in the UK and Europe I've found. We don't have a wrestling culture here so in the beginning it was Judo that was trained for groundwork, then when BJJ instructors became trained up BJJ was used, we still have that strong Judo and BJJ background here. We have Olympic Judoka who run seminars for MMA fighters.
Stand up has nearly always come from karate and TKD with Muay Thai becoming popular as well. Dan Hardy is typical, started in TKD, went onto karate, jujutsu and Judo, he in fact also trained CMA in China.

 

[Tez3]

Yeah. It doesn't really matter if it is or isn't.

The standard of training and the standard of martial artist participating won't be as high as the guys in that camp.

And that is what consistently creates the best martial artists.

And because there is no vehicle to create the best martial artists. TMA,s just don't get people to the standard where they could fight and win in the top promotions.

Oh dear, I wouldn't have expected you to say anything else. I would remind you that karate was designed for civilian unarmed self defence not for competitive fighting. It's supposed to be for ordinary people who have jobs work and want to be able to defend themselves. You are comparing apples and oranges and sounding boastful while at it.