Why until recently effective TMA practitioners were not represented in MMA?

[Tez3]

. TMA,s just don't get people to the standard where they could fight and win in the top promotions.

George St Pierre, Bas Rutten, and a great many others managed it somehow but then you are going to tell me how poor they are as fighters and you don't rate them.

 

[drop bear]

George St Pierre, Bas Rutten, and a great many others managed it somehow but then you are going to tell me how poor they are as fighters and you don't rate them.

Is tristar really a TMA gym though?
Tristar Gym - Wikipedia

 

[Tez3]

Is tristar really a TMA gym though?
Tristar Gym - Wikipedia

Is rings?
Fighting Network Rings - Wikipedia

You are making the common mistake of equating professional fighters training as being the epitome of martial arts, however the majority of their training isn't actually in martial arts but in conditioning, stamina and strength work etc. It's their will to win, dedication and their courage in getting into the arena that makes them good fighters.

 

[drop bear]

You are making the common mistake of equating professional fighters training as being the epitome of martial arts, however the majority of their training isn't actually in martial arts but in conditioning, stamina and strength work etc. It's their will to win, dedication and their courage in getting into the arena that makes them good fighters.

 

[drop bear]

You are making the common mistake of equating professional fighters training as being the epitome of martial arts, however the majority of their training isn't actually in martial arts but in conditioning, stamina and strength work etc. It's their will to win, dedication and their courage in getting into the arena that makes them good fighters.

The mental and physical toughness is martial arts training.

I have mentioned this before. People are adverse to training toughness, discipline and fitness. And then assume that people who have these qualities somehow got them through magic.

If these qualities are these deciding factors that win fights. What does that tell you about where the focus of your training should be if you want to win fights?

 

[Tez3]

The mental and physical toughness is martial arts training.

I have mentioned this before. People are adverse to training toughness, discipline and fitness. And then assume that people who have these qualities somehow got them through magic.

If these qualities are these deciding factors that win fights. What does that tell you about where the focus of your training should be if you want to win fights?

Not necessarily, martial arts training is different for different people, your definition is only one of many.
Not sure how you think a hospital doctor for example who works 80 or more hours a week in a demanding job but enjoys martial arts is going to have time to train as a professional martial artist would or a young mother with children to look after etc. etc. etc. Not everyone wants to be a professional, most people do train as hard as their lives allow them to, they aren't adverse to hard training but need to work, look after family etc. I don't think you should be demeaning people with lives by suggesting they are adverse to training toughness etc, you know nothing about their toughness.

People who want to fight will go to the coaches that will train them, that doesn't make TMA ineffectual. MMA is TMA's joined together, many MMA fighters have come from a TMA background but need processional coaches to join their styles up so that it's fluid and works. I go on TMA seminars and will often meet MMA people who are looking for more techniques to add. Most MMA people I know don't disrespect TMA in the way you do. they understand that it's horses for course.

 

[Yokozuna514]

George St Pierre, Bas Rutten

These guys started in Kyokushin which I believe is not really considered a TMA as it was created in the 60’s.

Tristar is definitely not a TMA gym.

 

[drop bear]

Not necessarily, martial arts training is different for different people, your definition is only one of many.
Not sure how you think a hospital doctor for example who works 80 or more hours a week in a demanding job but enjoys martial arts is going to have time to train as a professional martial artist would or a young mother with children to look after etc. etc. etc. Not everyone wants to be a professional, most people do train as hard as their lives allow them to, they aren't adverse to hard training but need to work, look after family etc. I don't think you should be demeaning people with lives by suggesting they are adverse to training toughness etc, you know nothing about their toughness.

People who want to fight will go to the coaches that will train them, that doesn't make TMA ineffectual. MMA is TMA's joined together, many MMA fighters have come from a TMA background but need processional coaches to join their styles up so that it's fluid and works. I go on TMA seminars and will often meet MMA people who are looking for more techniques to add. Most MMA people I know don't disrespect TMA in the way you do. they understand that it's horses for course.

Doesn't matter.

The fight doesn't care if you have a busy social life or work schedule.

If you don't put in the right preparation you are more likely to lose.

Professional fighters training is the epitome of martial arts training.

 

[Tez3]

Doesn't matter.

The fight doesn't care if you have a busy social life or work schedule.

If you don't put in the right preparation you are more likely to lose.

How did you miss my point?

Not every one wants to compete, competing isn't the defining standard of a martial art being effective. All martial arts can be effective. It's not that they are ineffective and MMA fighters aren't using them, they are and they are. All the martial arts techniques in MMA are TMA ones done by professional fighters. It's the fighters that make the difference not the martial art.

These guys started in Kyokushin which I believe is not really considered a TMA as it was created in the 60’s.

Just about all the TMAs aren't very old, age hasn't much to do with it.

 

[drop bear]

How did you miss my point?

Not every one wants to compete, competing isn't the defining standard of a martial art being effective. All martial arts can be effective. It's not that they are ineffective and MMA fighters aren't using them, they are and they are. All the martial arts techniques in MMA are TMA ones done by professional fighters. It's the fighters that make the difference not the martial art.

The training makes the fighters. These fit strong competitive people undergo training to be fit strong and competitive. It is not magic. That is the difference.

Mr can't train often because of life stuff. Will not be as effective a martial artist as Mr can train 6 days a week.

You point is you are trying to negotiate this very basic concept of you get out what you put in.

And you can't.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

These guys started in Kyokushin which I believe is not really considered a TMA as it was created in the 60’s.

Tristar is definitely not a TMA gym.

A lot of folks don't define TMA by age. It's a matter of approach (and somewhat vague in the definition). It's certainly not necessarily the same thing as koryu.

 

[ShotoNoob]

I would agree with you if I didn't already know that many MMA people like myself come from TMA, just about all do in the UK and Europe I've found. We don't have a wrestling culture here so in the beginning it was Judo that was trained for groundwork, then when BJJ instructors became trained up BJJ was used, we still have that strong Judo and BJJ background here. We have Olympic Judoka who run seminars for MMA fighters.
Stand up has nearly always come from karate and TKD with Muay Thai becoming popular as well. Dan Hardy is typical, started in TKD, went onto karate, jujutsu and Judo, he in fact also trained CMA in China.

This European MMA prevalence with the TMA base is a path much less taken in the U.S. Practitioners in the USA it seems gravitate to the "MMA org." of the time. Kinda a popularity contest.

Gregard Mousasi did so well in his latest championship fight @ Bellator. He trains Dutch kick boxing (I think) especially, instead of with the generic MMA camp. He looked really sharp in that bout. I also think Scott Coker, a kick boxer? himself, aids the Bellator competitors by having a less promotion-heavy environment.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

Mr can't train often because of life stuff. Will not be as effective a martial artist as Mr can train 6 days a week.

I've never heard anyone argue something contrary to this. I think Tez's point is that much of TMA is designed for Mr. Can't-train-as-often.

 

[ShotoNoob]

Well, I'm kinda a dark horse for MMA myself. Here's an excellent vid I ran across on the dominance of boxing over karate... a mixed striking style match. When MM protagonists see this, it's no wonder the verdict is boxing defeats karate.
Real BOXING VS. KARATE Match and Commentary (HADLEY VS VALOVICH) 1976
18,525 views

Hadley's Peek-A-Boo Boxing
Published on Feb 15, 2018

The boxer/ commentator is excellent. On of the better qualities he has by MMA is that he game plans his karate opponent, while it looks like the latter (to me) had no game plan beside kick & punch w moving all over. This video also captures what I don't like about karate sparring conventions. And why karate (so called) does not stand up against MMA.

Take note what the Peek-a-Boo boxer does to defeat the State Karate Champion.

!. Keeps his elbows in tight to block the knees to the torso.
2. Puts pressure, heavy pressure on the karate opponent.
3. Secondary effect of the heavy pressure is meant to tire the opponent.
4. Instill the psychological pressure of being hit regularly in the opponent.
5. The psychological pressure frustrates the opponent, resulting in the opponent getting more tired.
6. Looking for that 'right' opening to land that one strong right hand.

Works brilliantly, of course.

The author / boxer-narrator also mentions that Bill Lewis sought him out to train and that he did so.

My traditional karate rebuttal in next post.

 

[ShotoNoob]

The traditional karate answer to Peek-a-Boo Boxing.
1-Step Sparring training
3,519 views

Japan Karate-Do International
Published on Jul 7, 2016

Take the 1st 1-step technique.

1. Attacker comes in with a right straight punch.
2. Defender steps back into lunge stance / block high left.
3. Defender in same left stance / right reverse punch to midsection.

Now we can stipulate MMA lambastes this kind of sparring / training. The point I want to make is this:

1. The karate opponent is moving randomly, jumping all around. What kind of stance use?
2. The karate opponent is throwing limb strikes, punches and kicks with the arm & leg and not coordinated body involvement. Hence weak strength.
3. The karate opponent's defense consists of virtually running away from the stalking boxer. Running all around the ring.
4. The karate opponent is winging technique, throwing kicks & punches in the general direction of the boxer, again in a random-like fashion. Now & then he waves his arms at the boxer as some sort of hole-filled shield.
5. As the fight rages on, the karate opponent unable to stop either the boxer's advances or strikes, grabs & clinches up out of desperation.

And people, MMA people look to this individual as a karate champion? This solidifies my point earlier about the type of "TMA " person drawn to sport fighting. The pseudo karate opponent fits to a tee.

1. Naturally athletic & talented so.
2. Wants to go out & beat up the opponent. Win matches. Proceeds to exert a high activity level to do just that.
3. Takes karate lessons and then proceeds to fight with the natural kind of kicks and punches we see from unschooled boxers. & kick boxers. In other words, not karate tradition.
4. Throws out technique @t the opponent's general direction inaccurately.
5. When all else fails, uses and relies on excess mobility especially for defense and in avoiding the boxer.

My Conclusion is that the karate opponent won that State karate championship because he was so athletically gifted, naturally strong and well coordinated that he dominated opponents of because of their lesser athletic talent. His athletic ability on display in a karate setting convinced him and everyone else he "knew" karate.

Knew karate? IOW, the guy who went to the karate dojo, ran through all the black=belt requirements, showed he could repeat physical form, then went on to kumite & kicked and punched like everybody else in the world. IOW, he never learned karate, never understood what he was supposed to be doing. NO WONDER HE GOT DESTROYED BY A SAVVY BOXER.

These one steps don't work in real fight ("real boxing" in the fight video caption), MMA pans again & again. Well his brand of pseudo-karate kumite style sure wasn't working either. Kick boxing in pajamas, I like that dub.

I'll just close with what the 1st one step says in a manner of speaking.

1. The aggressor comes forward and throws a strike.
2. Take a step back to create some defensive space / avoid the opponent.
3. From that strong stance, block actively the strike.
4. From the new position, counter strike-reverse punch directly (to the mid-section).
5. Engage whole body mechanics throughout.

The so-called karate champion never does any of the above with any precision. I mean this is just awful. For sure, the boxer's skill & determined plan threw this 'karate' champion out of his game. How MMA.

What we have learned is that TMA champion karate does not work in MMA, here against good boxing. Or is it we have learned Mr. Kick boxer in Pajamas does not function in MMA?

A mindset of physical athletic ability & aggressive behavior so prevalent in MMA makes for poor traditional karate bedfellows. That's what I learned.

If you can't learn what to do with one-steps, you can't learn to fight with traditional karate. Something to ponder when we ask why TMA does not translate to MMA.

P.S. The traditional one-steps are specifically designed to handle AGGRESSION. Just how the boxer stated he intended to proceed.
P.S.S. Bill Wallace, middle weight karate champion of the world, went to boxing to get better at his hands. I thought karate taught hands?

 

[ShotoNoob]

Here's the JKA interpretation of one form of kumite drills.
JKA KARATE MASTERS: The Fighting Spirit
28,017 views

Jason Leung
Published on Jul 2, 2017

SUBSCRIBE 16K
Old school karate footage of training in hombu dojo in japan, back in the jka days, the building of great karateka and teachers worldwide

I guess a JKA instructor question for the State Karate Champion is whether you are actually going to strike the Peek-a-Boo boxer hard or not? Or, in the State Karate Champion's case, when, if ever? And try not to miss most all of the time like you are are doing. Not gonna work in MMA, well anyhow.
Mai Shiina vs Bianca Walsleben @ 2014 Funakoshi Gichin Cup
1,037 views

tsuruhimeja
Published on Oct 19, 2014

SUBSCRIBE 27K
The 13th Funakoshi Gichin Cup World Karate-Do Championship 2014

SEE, Japanese girls know how to do it. Just add male strength. The whole body's worth. For starter's.

P.S. Hear the USA contingent cheering on their competitor? Doesn't work.

 

[drop bear]

I've never heard anyone argue something contrary to this. I think Tez's point is that much of TMA is designed for Mr. Can't-train-as-often.

Then where is the argument?

I put out that a camp like tiger is the gold standard of martial arts training. The best martial artists doing the best training under the best coaching.

Simple as that.

Wado ryu does not have the equivalent. Most TMA,s dont.

Tez is trying to make some sort of point about that

 

[Gerry Seymour]

Then where is the argument?

I put out that a camp like tiger is the gold standard of martial arts training. The best martial artists doing the best training under the best coaching.

Simple as that.

Wado ryu does not have the equivalent. Most TMA,s dont.

Tez is trying to make some sort of point about that

I've made the point before that most of what's taught in MA - including SD-oriented schools and what I've seen in TMA - is set up for folks who don't want to commit to the highest level of training, because they have other priorities. It can be ramped up (like when I was training 10-20 hours a week), but it's still not set up for the intensity and duration of fight prep. They're designed for two different audiences.

I'll let Tez clarify the argument she's making, because I haven't kept up enough to say more than I did in my previous post.

 

[drop bear]

I've made the point before that most of what's taught in MA - including SD-oriented schools and what I've seen in TMA - is set up for folks who don't want to commit to the highest level of training, because they have other priorities. It can be ramped up (like when I was training 10-20 hours a week), but it's still not set up for the intensity and duration of fight prep. They're designed for two different audiences.

I'll let Tez clarify the argument she's making, because I haven't kept up enough to say more than I did in my previous post.

Which answers the overall question as to why TMA doesn't really represent well in MMA.

And this is reflected in other endeavors. So in Australia there is a disproportionate amount of time money and effort spent on training swimming. And so Australians are disproportionately better swimmers.

If you ever wonder why Australian actors over represent in Hollywood. Resources put in.

Nida.
NIDA - Home
Wow. That is a list.
Famous National Institute Of Dramatic Art Alumni


It is not genetics or just happens to be a bunch of individuals who woke up one morning being able to swim or act.



There is a cause and effect.

 

[Buka]

The traditional karate answer to Peek-a-Boo Boxing.
1-Step Sparring training
3,519 views

Japan Karate-Do International
Published on Jul 7, 2016

Take the 1st 1-step technique.

1. Attacker comes in with a right straight punch.
2. Defender steps back into lunge stance / block high left.
3. Defender in same left stance / right reverse punch to midsection.

Now we can stipulate MMA lambastes this kind of sparring / training. The point I want to make is this:

1. The karate opponent is moving randomly, jumping all around. What kind of stance use?
2. The karate opponent is throwing limb strikes, punches and kicks with the arm & leg and not coordinated body involvement. Hence weak strength.
3. The karate opponent's defense consists of virtually running away from the stalking boxer. Running all around the ring.
4. The karate opponent is winging technique, throwing kicks & punches in the general direction of the boxer, again in a random-like fashion. Now & then he waves his arms at the boxer as some sort of hole-filled shield.
5. As the fight rages on, the karate opponent unable to stop either the boxer's advances or strikes, grabs & clinches up out of desperation.

And people, MMA people look to this individual as a karate champion? This solidifies my point earlier about the type of "TMA " person drawn to sport fighting. The pseudo karate opponent fits to a tee.

1. Naturally athletic & talented so.
2. Wants to go out & beat up the opponent. Win matches. Proceeds to exert a high activity level to do just that.
3. Takes karate lessons and then proceeds to fight with the natural kind of kicks and punches we see from unschooled boxers. & kick boxers. In other words, not karate tradition.
4. Throws out technique @t the opponent's general direction inaccurately.
5. When all else fails, uses and relies on excess mobility especially for defense and in avoiding the boxer.

My Conclusion is that the karate opponent won that State karate championship because he was so athletically gifted, naturally strong and well coordinated that he dominated opponents of because of their lesser athletic talent. His athletic ability on display in a karate setting convinced him and everyone else he "knew" karate.

Knew karate? IOW, the guy who went to the karate dojo, ran through all the black=belt requirements, showed he could repeat physical form, then went on to kumite & kicked and punched like everybody else in the world. IOW, he never learned karate, never understood what he was supposed to be doing. NO WONDER HE GOT DESTROYED BY A SAVVY BOXER.

These one steps don't work in real fight ("real boxing" in the fight video caption), MMA pans again & again. Well his brand of pseudo-karate kumite style sure wasn't working either. Kick boxing in pajamas, I like that dub.

I'll just close with what the 1st one step says in a manner of speaking.

1. The aggressor comes forward and throws a strike.
2. Take a step back to create some defensive space / avoid the opponent.
3. From that strong stance, block actively the strike.
4. From the new position, counter strike-reverse punch directly (to the mid-section).
5. Engage whole body mechanics throughout.

The so-called karate champion never does any of the above with any precision. I mean this is just awful. For sure, the boxer's skill & determined plan threw this 'karate' champion out of his game. How MMA.

What we have learned is that TMA champion karate does not work in MMA, here against good boxing. Or is it we have learned Mr. Kick boxer in Pajamas does not function in MMA?

A mindset of physical athletic ability & aggressive behavior so prevalent in MMA makes for poor traditional karate bedfellows. That's what I learned.

If you can't learn what to do with one-steps, you can't learn to fight with traditional karate. Something to ponder when we ask why TMA does not translate to MMA.

P.S. The traditional one-steps are specifically designed to handle AGGRESSION. Just how the boxer stated he intended to proceed.
P.S.S. Bill Wallace, middle weight karate champion of the world, went to boxing to get better at his hands. I thought karate taught hands?

You fight a boxer with your rear hand held low you’ll have a very short night.