Why until recently effective TMA practitioners were not represented in MMA?

[drop bear]

As I’ve said before, it’s a lot to do with what people put into it. I don’t know if something like NGA, adapted to focus on what’s effective in the cage, could produce elite fighters. I do know that something like NGA, trained with that intensity and commitment (without any other adjustment), will produce better fighters than the hobbyists like me.

Does that happen?

 

[DaveB]

Does that happen?

Only combat sports produce the money necessary to train in that way. Cash Rules.

 

[Yokozuna514]

Taikyoku Shodan - Beginner Karate Kata
113,670 views

Interesting video you posted. I am curious to know from your Shotokan perspective, is this the ideal form of the kata for you ? The reason I ask is that we also do Taikyoko katas in Kyokushin and apart from the difference in hikete position which is something we have noted as being different between the two styles, I also noticed that the head block isn't as high as we would typically do it during the mae gedan barai. There is also a question about the straightness of the back leg during the zenkutsu dachi. There seems to be a slight bend in the back leg.

These are not really criticisms per se but a desire to understand the Shotokan perspective.

 

[Tez3]

Hendricks defeated GSP

Oh really? Fancy us not knowing that eh.

All that means is that GSP was beaten in that fight, doesn't mean the gym was bad.
If you have a long run of winning fights it's a sign that you are fighting the wrong people, everyone who is worth their salt gets beaten now and again, if you don't challenge yourself and fight good fighters ( not ones you know you can beat) then it's pointless.
Good training is necessary but you also need good opponents.

 

[drop bear]

I think this statement conflates common TMA training (Whig I was referring to - mostly hobbyists) and the elites. Elites train differently, tend to cross-train more, and focus more on fitness. I think what Tez is getting at is that MMA is an extension of TMA. I tend to see it that way, too, though not quite the same way she does.

The same. Just applied better.
Because their focus is to try to make the best martial artist they can. Rather than appeal to hobbyists.

Not everyone trains at that level. But enough do to keep high standards.

Mr comes once a week. Can train where the glass ceiling is higher. And that gives someone more opportunity.

But I still think people want their cake and eat it too. So instead of just saying tiger has a better school. (And it is better than mine). Or they produce better martial artists. And saying screw that. That is just too much work for me. I will settle for sleep ins and lesser results.

They try to twist the conversation in a way that puts their system on the same level. Just without ever having to put in the resources to actually have their system on the same level.

 

[drop bear]

Thanks for the link. I went to check it out and saw that they are Goju Ryu guys. Goju Ryu is about as close to Kyokushin that Okinawan karate comes and considering that the Sensei there started in Kyokushin, it makes perfect sense that they would introduce the 100 man kumite for those that want to test themselves that way.

The 100 man kumite means something special to Kyokushin folks. There are not many that have completed it successfully.

I have mentioned this idea that where results matter. The training improves.

 

[Yokozuna514]

I have mentioned this idea that where results matter. The training improves.

I'm not sure I follow what you are trying to say. Can you elaborate ?

 

[Buka]

AND MORE FOLLOW UP:

Here, we'll do Taiyoku kata together. Follow along closely now. I'm on the left; you're on the right. What do we see with the hands up or down?

Actually, I'd enjoy that very much, I love learning things.

Do you ever make it out to Hawaii?

 

[Martial D]

That's not what Jony Hendricks said in his post-fight interview, UFC Fight Night 82.

Oh, and for all you MMA buffs, Hendricks defeated GSP and that Tristar super boxing.

I've heard all this before, including in my own dojo. Kata is King.

Uhh...Hendricks LOST to Thompson that night.

He fought GSP at UFC 167. And lost.

And that was pre usada Hendricks.

 

[drop bear]

I'm not sure I follow what you are trying to say. Can you elaborate ?

If you are looking at a 100 man fight. You will be less likely to to half cook the training.

The appeal of TMA. to cater to someone who can only train once a week. Is less important than getting this guy ready.

The process of which will make the guy a better martial artist.

 

[Martial D]

Oh really? Fancy us not knowing that eh.

All that means is that GSP was beaten in that fight, doesn't mean the gym was bad.

Johnny Hendricks doesn't own a victory over GSP. They fought once to a decision, which went to george.

 

[ShotoNoob]

Actually, I'd enjoy that very much, I love learning things.

Do you ever make it out to Hawaii?

No.

 

[ShotoNoob]

Uhh...Hendricks LOST to Thompson that night.

He fought GSP at UFC 167. And lost.

And that was pre usada Hendricks.

Some good clarifications there.

 

[Buka]

No.

Too bad, my loss.

Where are you from?

 

[Martial D]

Some good clarifications there.

Accuracy is important. Without it, we might as well be standing on our heads and speaking out the other end.

 

[Yokozuna514]

If you are looking at a 100 man fight. You will be less likely to to half cook the training.

The appeal of TMA. to cater to someone who can only train once a week. Is less important than getting this guy ready.

The process of which will make the guy a better martial artist.

Shihan Judd Reid has a documentary out about his prep and performance in the 100 man kumite. He also wrote a book about it. It is very interesting to see how the approach he took to prepare. He is not a part timer. No one who wants to survive a 100 man kumite is a part timer. That would not be a good idea.

There are MA schools for every type of character under the sun if you look for them. I am sure you will agree that the amount of time on the floor doing proper training has a direct affect on your performance.

 

[ShotoNoob]

Oh really? Fancy us not knowing that eh.

All that means is that GSP was beaten in that fight, doesn't mean the gym was bad.
If you have a long run of winning fights it's a sign that you are fighting the wrong people, everyone who is worth their salt gets beaten now and again, if you don't challenge yourself and fight good fighters ( not ones you know you can beat) then it's pointless.
Good training is necessary but you also need good opponents.

Sure. Yet we Internet martial artists quote MMA wins & loses all the time. In the proper context, they can support an argument. It's very problematic to capture all the dynamics and convey all that over the INTERNET at the same too.

I can go along with all of your quote, but it's not comprehensive. The divide (and I noticed you like / funny) is you have a full contact mentality while I don't. I'm in the kata camp. You're in the emphasis on sparring camp. There's a difference in principle on how best to approach traditional martial arts.

I've had me, myself challenged over the years by the aggressive, muay thai, boxing, rough tough karate contingent. There's no need to travel to Hawaii or continually prove what I have achieved against every doubter in the world. It's up to the doubters to challenge themselves. And I've won those challenges for the most part. My emphasis, how a non-athlete like me (not the State karate champion physical specimen @ all) was on how I trained. And that's largely by what was presented in traditional martial arts schools.

If you are curious on how it works in effect, it's the same as Mai. I strike the opponent more dynamically than they can react. I can also support striking with this strange karate thing called blocking. One doesn't see frequent active blocking in formal karate kumite., yet the traditional karate curriculum's and manuals all provide for it. Including Renee's Okinawan kata. Maybe blocks work.

People have strong opinions and that's fine. The far majority of those challenging mine (including instructors, tournament participants) have fallen against me in my venue. Often too, those of higher skill than me, typically kung fu stylists, we don't bother to spar because we understand there is no point because of the mis-match in skills.

Kung fu stylists in my area conventionally and traditionally spend more time training the preparatory components of the curriculum, in basics, forms, one-step or self defense technicals, than sparring. My traditional karate training model follows along that lines which is also the pre-Shotokan era model traditionally speaking.

If karate practitioners want to practice say, Kyo and use the hands up guard, that's all legit in my book. It's just a departure from the traditional karate model in general, and not the kind of karate guard Kyo's either base art of Shotokan employs or Goju Ryu employed. I hold both types work, I believe the traditional karate guard is more effective once skilled. That's an example of tradition versus the more modern Kyo full contact paractice.

 

[Buka]

@ShotoNoob, have you ever trained in boxing?

 

[ShotoNoob]

Accuracy is important. Without it, we might as well be standing on our heads and speaking out the other end.

Right, same applies to reviewing what I've advocated. And not by one-liners.

I don't expect the majority or say the full contact crowd, or say, GPSeymour to jump on board with my interpretations. My material is posted for the thoughtful to consider.

How traditional karate interpreted & trained properly would excel rather than fail in MMA I've posted considerable explanatory material w detailed explanations. That is all.

Too bad, my loss.

Where are you from?

Well, perhaps you're doing quite well on your own. You assert yourself with great confidence.

I've trained a few karate students. They drop out though because it takes a much greater commitment personally to do what I do. Perhaps a better anecdote I will share is the assistant head instructor at my current dojo demonstrated his great fighting skills to me on my arrival. In a sparring session. He thought I was a wimp. He much much bigger, taller, heavier than me of course. I just kinda remained passive, so silly foisting such a thing on a new arrival.

Later on, when he witnessed me in testing, he did a 90 degree. About 5-6 months in when he required me to free spar in class one day, and I don't care for free sparring for a whole number of reasons, he insisted. So I challenged him to be by partner and he declined. Refused. Nada, no way.

Then even later, 'cause you know tournaments are big with all competitive types like 'him,' he came back from some losses and requested that I help him prepare for the next tournament. Now I bowed out. He did a 180 there. Too late. He should have respected what I talked about from the start, being a big important strong big guy upper-level black-belt instructor.

BTW: I sized up that assistant head instructor's skill as mediocre when I met him. Not a tournament winner at all. knowing the curriculum content-wise, which he did very well, is not assimilating the curriculum.

 

[ShotoNoob]

@ShotoNoob, have you ever trained in boxing?

No, no really. But I've encountered them in dojos. Boxers as a group typically do well against the average karateka. I'm not average.

Furthermore, I have no desire to train boxing. Mental strength is where I'm at. Boxers have physical talents often I don't possess naturally. I'm Mai. I'm more dynamic.

Fighting a boxer whose skilled isn't a free ride. I only prevail because my mind is stronger hence my technique is superior in effect. Like Mai. If I'm not on my game, colloquially speaking, a good, skilled boxer can / will take you apart, just as we see on You tube. Or Machida against Rua, Match 2, Round 1. Machida Era done.

Theoretically speaking, I don't out strike the boxer, I out think him. See the traditional karate manual for the entire portfolio of mental strengths & skills which that 'thinking' encompasses. It's both broad & deep in principle.

Mai in action, essentially. How does Mai know how & when to strike and so fast,strong & accurately @ an effective target. It's explained in the traditional karate curriculum.