Why until recently effective TMA practitioners were not represented in MMA?

[Steve]

Both of those are possible. Unlikely, in my estimation, but possible.

The former would defy the experience of a lot of people, that training methods matter.

training methods do matter. Just to be more specific, if you took 100 WC or Ninjutsu guys, 100 MMA guys and 100 untrained guys (all guys in a generic, random sense), the MMA guys would undoubtedly perform better. The only question in my mind is whether there would be any appreciable difference in fighting skill between the ninjas and the control group. Hard to say.

The latter is too undefined to work for statistics in any case. Some types of attack are less likely to become more survivable by fighting skills. Some others likely do change. There’s really too broad a spectrum to treat them all as one. It’s kind of like talking about illness.

could easily work, but you're right that it would need to be better defined. The real challenge is in collecting the data.

 

[Yokozuna514]

My hypothesis is that the range of results would not be as wide as you think. I wish we could do this study. I think it would be worthwhile.

The other study I would Like to do is a statistical analysis of actual self defense situations. My hypothesis is that people who train in any martial art regardless of style are no more likely to survive in self-defense than those who don't train in a martial art at all. In other words people who don't train martial arts Will Survive physical encounters at the same rate as people who do trained in martial arts. Further I think that it really has more to do with Fitness and willingness to fight back then ability to fight or skill.

All things created equal, a person who trains in a martial art and is used to being hit will have a better chance to remain calm and allow their training to protect them more than a equal person who is not used to being hit.

We see this phenomenon in a controlled setting in Kyokushin. Newer belts have more of a tendency to forget their training during kumite matches the first time they take a hard shot than higher belts who are more seasoned fighters.

Of course kumite competition is not at all like having your life threatened and you are required to use self defence but it is as close as you can get to practice hitting and being hit, imho.

Also true that survivability is more about being able and willing to fight butbif these two criteria were equal and the only criteria that was different was the one person had training and the other didn’t, I would put my money on the person with training to be have a better chance to survive but again the art that they train in should have a large aspect where the students train to be hit as well as to hit.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

training methods do matter. Just to be more specific, if you took 100 WC or Ninjutsu guys, 100 MMA guys and 100 untrained guys (all guys in a generic, random sense), the MMA guys would undoubtedly perform better. The only question in my mind is whether there would be any appreciable difference in fighting skill between the ninjas and the control group.

I can't really speak to those styles, but good training methods work in TMA, too. Would MMA fare better? That probably depends what we include in TMA. Cross-trained folks can have a similar spectrum of skills to MMA (that's really the base for most of MMA, after all). And where do we draw the line on what is and is not traditional. My view of that is likely quite different from many others.

 

[drop bear]

training methods do matter. Just to be more specific, if you took 100 WC or Ninjutsu guys, 100 MMA guys and 100 untrained guys (all guys in a generic, random sense), the MMA guys would undoubtedly perform better. The only question in my mind is whether there would be any appreciable difference in fighting skill between the ninjas and the control group. Hard to say.could easily work, but you're right that it would need to be better defined. The real challenge is in collecting the data.

I was going to do a whole thread on this. But never really figured out how to put the whole thing in to ma manageable essay.


If say you had just found out you were a wimp. Someone who you thought shouldn't have beaten the tar out of you did. And you wanted to fix it.

First you would need to identify the problem.

It may be the system. You might be doing stuff that just doesn't work. Or work as well. (So when bjj was getting mauled by leg locks as an example)

It may be the training or the instructor. So the techniques are sound but you are training it in a way that isn't efficient or effective.

You could be physically at fault. Not strong enough. Not fit enough.

You could be mentally at fault. Willpower, discipline or agression.

Or it could be a combination of things.

(Now I was going to go in to how to identify and fix. But logically assessing and then doing tasks that would repair those issues is pretty common sense. And I can't be stuffed.)

But to identify one aspect and suggest it is universal and untreatable is untrue. People who are doing that will never be able to fix the problem.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

I can't really speak to those styles, but good training methods work in TMA, too. Would MMA fare better? That probably depends what we include in TMA. Cross-trained folks can have a similar spectrum of skills to MMA (that's really the base for most of MMA, after all). And where do we draw the line on what is and is not traditional. My view of that is likely quite different from many others.

Which part of that did you disagree with, Steve?

 

[ShotoNoob]

-

 

[drop bear]

Which part of that did you disagree with, Steve?

The methods either work or they don't. And we can see that in competition. Which is observable and repeatable.

If the competition does not match your testing objectives. Then you need to come up with a competition or an experiment that does.

And then you can say based on my research.......

If they don't work. Logical arguments why they should work. Won't make them work.

You are arguing a flat earth.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

The methods either work or they don't. And we can see that in competition. Which is observable and repeatable.

If the competition does not match your testing objectives. Then you need to come up with a competition or an experiment that does.

And then you can say based on my research.......

If they don't work. Logical arguments why they should work. Won't make them work.

You are arguing a flat earth.

What are you on about? Where in any of what I said did I claim different methods work for TMA than for MMA, or any such?

 

[drop bear]

What are you on about? Where in any of what I said did I claim different methods work for TMA than for MMA, or any such?

Cross-trained folks can have a similar spectrum of skills to MMA (that's really the base for most of MMA, after all).

If they have similar skills they will get similar results.

If they are not getting similar results. Let's look again at these skills shall we?

Especially something like ninjitsu. It trains stand up, ground fighting, weapons the whole spectrum. And yet the results don't match up.

Pro wrestling doesn't train the same skills as wrestling.

They just try to look like they do.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

If they have similar skills they will get similar results.

If they are not getting similar results. Let's look again at these skills shall we?

Especially something like ninjitsu. It trains stand up, ground fighting, weapons the whole spectrum. And yet the results don't match up.

Pro wrestling doesn't train the same skills as wrestling.

They just try to look like they do.

Is Ninjutsu the same as Cross-training? Is the same spectrum of skills the same as the same skills, or the same skill level?

You're saying I'm arguing flat-earth, based on arguments I've not made.

(@Steve, does that satisfy your requirements for a strawman?)

 

[drop bear]

Is Ninjutsu the same as Cross-training? Is the same spectrum of skills the same as the same skills, or the same skill level?

You're saying I'm arguing flat-earth, based on arguments I've not made.

(@Steve, does that satisfy your requirements for a strawman?)

Depends how you have cross trained.

You cross train and I cross train so therefore we are basically the same thing. Is that what you are trying to say here?

 

[Monkey Turned Wolf]

Depends how you have cross trained.

You cross train and I cross train so therefore we are basically the same thing. Is that what you are trying to say here?

No, but you have the potential too. I cross-train and so do you, but I would bet that you'd do better in competition. Not because your MT and BJJ (or whatever you cross train) is inherently better than kempo and judo/sambo, but because You put more time and effort into your training. If you trained once a week, and I was still training every day, I would bet on myself in a competition, even if you train at a MMA-specific gym.

Now if my kempo schools were crap, and what I learned is ineffective, that wouldn't be the case, but since I've seen people I've train with win kickboxing and MMA matches, I have some evidence that it's effective, if non-traditional for MMA.

 

[drop bear]

No, but you have the potential too. I cross-train and so do you, but I would bet that you'd do better in competition. Not because your MT and BJJ (or whatever you cross train) is inherently better than kempo and judo/sambo, but because You put more time and effort into your training. If you trained once a week, and I was still training every day, I would bet on myself in a competition, even if you train at a MMA-specific gym.

Now if my kempo schools were crap, and what I learned is ineffective, that wouldn't be the case, but since I've seen people I've train with win kickboxing and MMA matches, I have some evidence that it's effective, if non-traditional for MMA.

Ok. But you are basing success of training on evidence.

If your Kempo guys got routinely mauled. You then might need to look at how your training is different to guys who don't.

And training once a week vs every day might be the factor. But it still may not. You would have to do it to find out.

 

[Tony Dismukes]

Just to be more specific, if you took 100 WC or Ninjutsu guys, 100 MMA guys and 100 untrained guys (all guys in a generic, random sense), the MMA guys would undoubtedly perform better. The only question in my mind is whether there would be any appreciable difference in fighting skill between the ninjas and the control group. Hard to say.

For what it's worth, the time I spent training in the Bujinkan (“ninjutsu”) did improve my ability to fight. Just not nearly as much as my time spent training Muay Thai, boxing, and BJJ.

 

[ShotoNoob]

Here we have another example of why people are having a hard time understanding the points you are trying to make.

Tony, here we have [yet] another example of why TMA fails in MMA. Oh, and it's Tony, "representative of the people." You mean the MMA minded groupies you hang out with. The "people," who went from TMA to the MMA business.

First you quote a brief comment I made clarifying who you were referring to in an earlier reply.

Then you quote a much longer essay I wrote on a completely unrelated topic.

Then you complement the essay and suggest I write that way in my replies, then you insult the way I am writing.

Change "...then you insult the way I am writing;" to "the insults that I wrote;" and we'll be on the same page. Who's this dribble meant for, impressionable MMA adolescents who are wandering around on the 'net?

Are you suggesting the first quote should have been an extensive essay? That hardly seems appropriate for a brief clarification that only needed one sentence.

Are you suggesting that the second quote isn't the way I write in conversations on MartialTalk? If so, you should probably realize that even though you found that bit of writing on Gerry's website, it's actually just copied and pasted from one of the threads here. I think most of the regulars on MartialTalk would probably recognize it as my writing style.

Tony, here's what I'm suggesting. When you show up at my thread posts, come with your gi pressed, you belt tied correctly and snug, and be ready to listen, learn and make a substantiative contribution. Put 1 + 1 together, or try to.

You're taking the time and effort to write a fair number of longish posts on this forum. I expect that means you would like people to understand the arguments you are making. Unfortunately, I think most of us are pretty confused by now as to what you are actually trying to say most of the time. I'd suggest that for the moment you put aside the videos, quotes, and personal attacks to focus on clearly explaining your points.

Tony of the "people"again. Yes Tony, the "people" are behind you. Add to my requirement to all new students as per the previous directive, bring yourself as an individual. Stop leaning like a groupie on your MMA cohorts. Stand tall.

 

[ShotoNoob]

I was going to do a whole thread on this. But never really figured out how to put the whole thing in to ma manageable essay.


If say you had just found out you were a wimp. Someone who you thought shouldn't have beaten the tar out of you did. And you wanted to fix it.

First you would need to identify the problem.

It may be the system. You might be doing stuff that just doesn't work. Or work as well. (So when bjj was getting mauled by leg locks as an example)

It may be the training or the instructor. So the techniques are sound but you are training it in a way that isn't efficient or effective.

You could be physically at fault. Not strong enough. Not fit enough.

You could be mentally at fault. Willpower, discipline or agression.

Or it could be a combination of things.

(Now I was going to go in to how to identify and fix. But logically assessing and then doing tasks that would repair those issues is pretty common sense. And I can't be stuffed.)

But to identify one aspect and suggest it is universal and untreatable is untrue. People who are doing that will never be able to fix the problem.

Drop Beaar, where's my byline?

 

[ShotoNoob]

For what it's worth, the time I spent training in the Bujinkan (“ninjutsu”) did improve my ability to fight. Just not nearly as much as my time spent training Muay Thai, boxing, and BJJ.

I thought so, after seein' that video. TMA @ it's worst-est, I can hear MMA now. Good thing you made the switch from that substandard "Bujinkan" (you name dropper you), to that realistic, modern MMA stuff. Did wonders for Conor against Khabib.

SBG is the incarnation of taking what's so-called 'best' from TMA, then looking to the sport fighting methods you cite. Right down the line. Conor's gotten hit a lot through his MMA career too. And tons of active sparring too.

BOOM, Khabib drops him Round 2. Good thing Conor was so used to getting hit. Helped him a lot in winning that round.

 

[Monkey Turned Wolf]

Ok. But you are basing success of training on evidence.

If your Kempo guys got routinely mauled. You then might need to look at how your training is different to guys who don't.

And training once a week vs every day might be the factor. But it still may not. You would have to do it to find out.

But because of that example, and the evidence I have seen, I can say that TMA can be as effective as MMA, or at least that one TMA. I know that (when it comes to striking), kempo has the ability to perform. So I can look at another kempo school of the same style, and I know that their techniques and style have the ability to compete, if they were to train more and in an effective manner.

As I'm writing this, I get the feeling that you agree with it, and what you are arguing has been lost on me...

 

[Monkey Turned Wolf]

Tony of the "people"again. Yes Tony, the "people" are behind you. Add to my requirement to all new students as per the previous directive, bring yourself as an individual. Stop leaning like a groupie on your MMA cohorts. Stand tall.

Except a bunch of people here also commented that we have no clue what you're saying. FYI, I'm not an MMA adolescent, and I also had no clue wtf you were saying for a solid 3 pages.

 

[Tony Dismukes]

Oh, and it's Tony, "representative of the people." You mean the MMA minded groupies you hang out with. The "people," who went from TMA to the MMA business.

The people who have already said they're confused about what you are trying to say are a pretty diverse group - practitioners of Karate, Kung Fu, Aikido, BJJ, Muay Thai, Kempo ... I think there might be one actual MMA practitioner.

Change "...then you insult the way I am writing;" to "the insults that I wrote;" and we'll be on the same page.

Now you're claiming that I'm the one writing insults? Please point them out. I don't think you'll have much luck finding examples. I make a point to stay polite even when I disagree with someone or think they're being belligerent.

Tony, here's what I'm suggesting. When you show up at my thread posts, come with your gi pressed, you belt tied correctly and snug, and be ready to listen, learn and make a substantiative contribution. Put 1 + 1 together, or try to.

I make a point to listen, learn, and contribute substantively regardless of who I am responding to. Feel free to point out where and why you think I am failing to do so.

Tony of the "people"again. Yes Tony, the "people" are behind you. Add to my requirement to all new students as per the previous directive, bring yourself as an individual. Stop leaning like a groupie on your MMA cohorts. Stand tall.

No one is "behind" me. I am, as an individual, encouraging you to communicate in such a way that you can be understood. I think you might enjoy conversations more this way.

There are practitioners from a wide variety of martial backgrounds participating on this thread. The majority are not MMAers. Do you honestly believe that most of them are following whatever points you are trying to make in your posts?

(BTW - "new students"? Some of us that you're jabbing at have 3, 4, or 5+ decades of training. Remind me of what your training background consists of exactly?)