ShotoNoob
Master Black Belt
GPS, you, me, we're all headed in the same direction. Some divergence on how to best arrive.
Why until recently effective TMA practitioners were not represented in MMA?
- Thread starter Bullsherdog
- Start date
ShotoNoob
Master Black Belt
I've gone on & on. Just let me throw this up.
Kihon Ippon Kumite JKA 2 Shotokan Karate @KarateZine
44,259 views
Karate Zine
Published on Dec 1, 2013
MMA, boxers, Muay Thai enthusiastic pan this type of karate training constantly. From their perspective, based on the dynamics of how those listed arts are constructed and trained, they are 100% justified in their thinking. This is dumb.
See, however, it's not an opponent you are facing. It's yourself. It's taking the understanding of the traditional karate curriculum and putting it all it's multi-level principles into play, in a theoretically applied kumite exercise. It's a mental strengthening exercise in physical form which you can use in principle. Not a Brandon Gibson of Jackson / Winkeljohn boxing combo. Almost nothing in common.
Karateka at my dojo (and a lot where other dojos) walk through these monkey-see-do and then get creamed in sparring. Start some kick boxing knock off just like out State Karate Champion destroyed by savvy Peek-a- Boo'r.
Traditional karate is a mental discipline, not a sport. It's the mind that's working the body; it only looks like we are 'punching air.'
If you don't train these properly, they are in truth, dumb & dumber.
drop bear
Sr. Grandmaster
I have seen a massive trend shift from what is easy to what works. Self defense to bjj. Bjj to mma. Aerobics to cross fit.
Soccer moms doing mud runs and marathons
People are now more driven to success than comfort.
And almost all of suit training.
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My dear, I'm sure you think what you are writing is deep and profound, I have news for you it's not. Instead of projecting your muddled and ill thought out ideas onto me please try to do some clear and logically thinking. 'En-ounce' is really silly, apart from the fact there's no hyphen in the word I am not 'speaking or pronouncing anything' this is the written word.
We've all read your posts, you aren't the messiah of martial arts, your words aren't manna from the heavens.
This is the important bit, most of your posts are copy and paste from other sources not much of it is your writing, the bits where you talk randomly are for sure, where you think you are being enigmatic and wise. Take post 198, you wrote only a few words on that, the rest is taken from someone else's writing, the style or writing, words used etc are different. By all means quote people but have the decency to cite who you are quoting.
Ah congrats guys!!
Cheers.
everyone is very pleased. Sadly one horse isn't coming back to UK, a few days ago it broke it's leg, nasty totally in pieces, put down very quickly. Probably not a good chance in the Gold cup so don't put money on but you never know!
I wouldn't put any money on shootnoob posts being all his own work either, he's interspersing writing from articles with his own, the difference between writing styles is obvious probably also obvious to all but thought I'd mention it.
I've no need to provide a substantive answer when the premise you start from is incorrect.
I literally do not see a difference in those two positions. As a training tool, sparring's main value is in finding out how what you're doing works. So in training, it's used for testing. The only thing I'd change is in your second sentence: from "what you know to be working" to "what you think is working". That's why you test it - to know.---FIGHTING TEST---
Shiina Mai JPN vs Parker Kim AUS - Quarter Final
439 views
Karate-do Focus
Published on Aug 29, 2017
gpseymour = kumite = training (to see if you are working, to see what to change).
shotonoob = kumite = testing (what you know to be working in principle from your training before you ever step on to the tatame).
And, with allowance & accordance with your position, which is true.
This is where you lose me - and I think some others. You keep referring to winning by self-mastery. That's not something that doesn't happen in most combat sports. Yeah, someone who's exceptionally gifted might get by with less self-mastery, but the more self-discipline, self-understanding, and self-mastery they develop, the better a fighter will get. An undisciplined fighter will never develop their peak. And most fighters are strategic and methodical in their fight. The best are often more so than the others, regardless of their background.As above, now see below.
---TRAINING TO FIGHT---
Mai Shiina (Honbu Dojo JKA)
10,285 views
Dojo O-Ichiban
Published on Jul 28, 2014
I can defeat Camp 1 (in principle), which elevates fighting skill through sparring, because I have mastery over, have elevated myself. Kim Parker who looks to be similar rank, can approach Mai Shiina - hold her own at points, but in the end is outfought seriously at each critical juncture. Starting to see?
By my approach, this result or desired outcome stems from mastering (for working purposes) the traditional karate curriculum before I even begin to engage seriously in free sparring or competition. The free sparring is more of a verification that I have mastered karate for fighting purposes BEFOREHAND. Based on knowledge and skilled execution of all the underlying principles.
But of course this is me. And certain other traditional martial artists I've spoken about in my area. Nearly all the karate practitioner in my dojo believe as you do. I've given them some demonstrations though, that have shaken them up. In kumite, striking the opposition before they can react. Actually blocking strikes actively instead of trying to out-speed hit the other as we typically in formal karate kumite. Smashing multiple board without set up, warm up, absent all that wiggling into exact position you always see. Breaking multi-positional boards with kata moves.
Free sparring always, always makes a good resistance test, a good reality test. To me though, it's a test I know I should pass before I even contemplate doing so.
Again, this is difficult & problematic over the internet. And as a word of caution, training traditional karate wrongly, or kata wrongly is a waste of time for the most part. Just as TMA critics assert. We see massive fails in MMA because of this. I posted that Peek-a-Boo Boxer vs. the State Karate Champion Match video, perfect, perfect illustration.
Your approach of looking to active sparring for the benefits makes for a more pragmatic route.
I think this is one big reason why kumite was incorporated into the Shotokan model on mainland Japan early on. To make Shotokan and karate more relate-able and practical for more / most people. less theoretical.
Sound like we are getting somewhere?
P.S. I think her kata is pretty damn good. Time for a female to get a promotion, JKA.
I don't think TMA (and that's a pretty vague term that has different meaning for many people, so let's accept that up) has a monopoly on self-mastery. There are things I prefer about the TMA approach, so I keep much of it, but we should be realistic about what the real differences are. I think both sides - TMA and MMA - tend to spend a lot of effort on differentiation, when they're parts of a spectrum, not really polar opposites.
I haven't seen that massive shift the same way you have. There's a shift, but it feels a lot like the other shifts I've seen in MA - about what they're seeing in the media. So that changes expectations of what things should look like. That's the shift from SD-orientation to fight orientation.
There's another shift - that's slow to catch on in TMA as I've seen it, and this one goes back to what I was saying. See, I've always found TMA (as I've experienced it) to be concerned about results. They just weren't really good at identifying which results, nor how to best test them. MMA's training methods have given us (because I toss myself into that camp) better insight into both of those. We're learning better how to use failure in our training. And that kind of change does have to come from the instructors, because they have to set up drills and expectation around that. It still surprises me when I have to explain to a class (when visiting someone and asked to help teach) why a drill "went badly". Some drills are supposed to - they're about learning to manage the failure to minimize the fallout. That's something I don't think TMA did enough of in the past.
And that's the same with things like aerobics to cross fit. That's about optics and expectations. People always cared about results - and a lot of people got good results from aerobics. But we now know more than we did in the 70's, and can produce better training. So HIIT and other exercise approaches give people better results - and people are expecting something different (more thought of strength than just sweating off calories). But sometimes it's not what they think, and they're still not getting the right results. Crossfit is a good example of this. It's gone overboard, and people are getting injured faster than with more reasonable approaches. So they are injured and not able to be as active, which sets them back in their path. Soon, we'll probably find Crossfit starting to either get reasonable, or get a bad reputation. Then we'll either get Crossfit that doesn't injure people (better results) or something else that tries to fill that role.
So I don't think it's really a shift away from not caring about results to caring about results. I think we're all (including TMA and SD) are getting smarter, and our expectations of those results are changing.
Bro, have you earned your first belt in your dojo yet? I'm just curious.
FriedRice
Master Black Belt
and you didn't do reading comprehension as school did you? You didn't understand what I wrote so you write an inane, boring and vacuous remark to make up for your lack of acumen.
I would challenge you to a battle of wits but you, sir, are unarmed.
moooooooooooooo.
Flying Crane
Sr. Grandmaster
Stated more gently than I could have done. Which is why I’m not participating. I’ve been thinking more about a physics text on Amazon...
drop bear
Sr. Grandmaster
Ok as one concept let's look at mud runs. Back in the day I did an army obstacle course. Which honestly mud runs look harder.
Now interestingly women were not expected to complete them. Women can't be soldiers. They can't lift their own body weight, can't do push ups. So on and so forth.
And now soccer moms are doing what nobody thought soldiers could do.
That is your one day a week person who when given the opportunity to be better Becomes better
Stated more gently than I could have done. Which is why I’m not participating. I’ve been thinking more about a physics text on Amazon...
Physics text on Amazon.... do tell.
Flying Crane
Sr. Grandmaster
Well I’ve had an intro class in physics but that’s it, and I’m not in a position to take more classes right now so I’ve been buying old, used editions of college texts on Amazon, often for under 10 bucks. Not fully up to date, but a lot of great info in them, and a fraction of the cost of a new college text, often over $200. Lots of biology, some geology, astronomy.
So there is a text by Paul Hewitt, called Conceptual Physics, he was a teacher here in San Francisco, City College of SF, and UC Berkeley and UC Santa Cruz, and the Exploratorium as well as U of Hawaii Manoa and Hilo. He pioneered a conceptual approach to teaching physics, less of the math. I think it sounds like a great way to get a grip on some concepts and would be a great preparation for some further physics courses. I might pick up an edition of his text.
ShotoNoob
Master Black Belt
Yep by my approach, you are lost.
Sentence 1. Yep, Traditional karate the art speaks of that self-mastery.
Sentence 2. Well, there's a difference in method between TMA and combat sports. So then there is a difference in self-mastery if you concur on the premise.
Most MMA fighter we in the major venues are relatively unskilled animals. They are conditioned heavily, that I'll grant. They are aggressive at putting out some kind of technique bet it Muay Thai or BJJ, etc. Only a minor percentage have any level of skill. And self-mastery is a rare commodity in MMA indeed.
Here's prime beef example.
Was Khabib Rocked Against Michael Johnson? Joe Rogan Exposed
134,332 views
FR MMA 2
Published on Apr 12, 2018
Michael Johnson's striking against Khabib was lauded as among the most effective to date, leading up to the Conor McGregor title defense fight.
Michael Johnson winging hay maker/ looping punches, whiffing all along, arm punching absent boxer body mechanics, leading with his head and chin, leaning out of stance, slopping up a jerky front kick that goes part way, and on & on. And this is a top UFC competitor going up against the fearsome Khabib N., the master grappler? Chasing Khabib haphazardly all around the Octagon. No wonder Khabib always gets the takedown
These MMA Camps don't produce masters of anything. MMA Camps in the USA produce aggressive, physically fit guys (and gals) who know how to go out & kick and punch through elemental striking drills, for the most part. The grappling quality is higher somewhat because we have the Gracie BJJ which is a well developed art. Khabib's wrestling is off the charts comparatively speaking in MMA. Other good wrestlers came along in MMA,such as Matt Hughes, GSP developed some good wrestling.
MMA strikers can't even begin to compare with the effective striking we see in formal JKA REGIONAL Championships. Here nice example.
SAJKA 2018 Day 2 - Highlights - Elite Divisions
1,852 views
Karin Prinsloo For The Love Of Karate
Published on Aug 12, 2018
I wouldn't vote any of these regional competitor top echelon at the World competition level. They are, however, working on self mastery, landing strikes efficiently & effectively. It's point fighting for cripes sake, and there are instances of stopping, dropping the opponent in their tracks. Yeah, good karate tournament striking can stuff, stop & drop the oncoming grappler spot on. The Michael Johnson's too, all in principle.
Sorry Royce, move over, there's a new karate sheriff in town!!!!
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Martial D
Senior Master
Ok, so as hard as it is to take you seriously, I'll offer you one minute of serious discussion. I'm not sure you will understand, or that I will be able to decipher any reply you offer, but here goes anyway.Yep by my approach, you are lost.
Sentence 1. Yep, Traditional karate the art speaks of that self-mastery.
Sentence 2. Well, there's a difference in method between TMA and combat sports. So then there is a difference in self-mastery if you concur on the premise.
Most MMA fighter we in the major venues are relatively unskilled animals. They are conditioned heavily, that I'll grant. They are aggressive at putting out some kind of technique bet it Muay Thai or BJJ, etc. Only a minor percentage have any level of skill. And self-mastery is a rare commodity in MMA indeed.
Here's prime beef example.
Was Khabib Rocked Against Michael Johnson? Joe Rogan Exposed
134,332 views
FR MMA 2
Published on Apr 12, 2018
Michael Johnson's striking against Khabib was lauded as among the most effective to date, leading up to the Conor McGregor title defense fight.
Michael Johnson winging hay maker/ looping punches, whiffing all along, arm punching absent boxer body mechanics, leading with his head and chin, leaning out of stance, slopping up a jerky front kick that goes part way, and on & on. And this is a top UFC competitor going up against the fearsome Khabib N., the master grappler? Chasing Khabib haphazardly all around the Octagon. No wonder Khabib always gets the takedown
These MMA Camps don't produce masters of anything. MMA Camps in the USA produce aggressive, physically fit guys (and gals) who know how to go out & kick and punch through elemental striking drills, for the most part. The grappling quality is higher somewhat because we have the Gracie BJJ which is a well developed art. Khabib's wrestling is off the charts comparatively speaking in MMA. Other good wrestlers came along in MMA,such as Matt Hughes, GSP developed some good wrestling.
MMA strikers can't even begin to compare with the effective striking we see in formal JKA REGIONAL Championships. Here nice example.
SAJKA 2018 Day 2 - Highlights - Elite Divisions
1,852 views
Karin Prinsloo For The Love Of Karate
Published on Aug 12, 2018
I wouldn't vote any of these regional competitor top echelon at the World competition level. They are, however, working on self mastery, landing strikes efficiently & effectively. It's point fighting for cripes sake, and there are instances of stopping, dropping the opponent in their tracks. Yeah, good karate tournament striking can stuff, stop & drop the oncoming grappler spot on.
Sorry Royce, move over, there's a new karate sheriff in town!!!!
If you don't spar, fight, or compete regularly, you will suck at fighting. It doesn't matter how good your kata is, how clean your karate moves are, or even how fast you are or how hard you can hit.
There are two reasons for this.
Timing.
Distance.
There is simply no way to train these things without a moving human being in front of you.
Mud runs aren't that hard, except where they are. And the only people who are completing those hard parts are those who are already athletic, or those who train for them. Soccer mom probably isn't, unless she finds it important enough to train for. Most people walk generous portions of the course. So yeah, people are doing more than they used to, when they decide it's important enough.
Here's where your statement doesn't hold up, man. See, at most MA schools, there are a bunch of classes. At my instructor's school, there are probably 12 adult classes a week. People could go to as many of those as they like. Most people go to 1-3 of them. That's the same average (about 2) as back when my first instructor had a smaller school and only guaranteed you could attend your 2 classes a week. Students also have plenty of options for getting more fit, but most only do the exercise that's made part of class, unless they were already doing some other exercise. Most don't train outside class.
Nobody limits how much time students can spend on their training, except the students. And they choose what seems right for their life.
The same holds true for intensity of training. Back when I was training my hardest at that school, I had trouble finding partners who wanted to go that hard. And my hardest back then was probably closer to the norm you'd see in many MMA schools. So, it wasn't like I was having animal day all the time - I was just working up a good sweat and testing my limits a bit. And most folks wanted to take their normal pace. Nobody limited their intensity to that, except themselves.
I don't limit the intensity students can train at, except when it gets near safety margins. Students don't typically get anywhere near where I'd even worry about that.
ShotoNoob
Master Black Belt
Well thanks for giving it a try. GPS has been all alone in spirited effort on this topic.
Ah, premise, analysis and conclusion in 12 words. Good read a decent karate manual, come back and try again.
Using "good" and "clean" and vauge, formless, essentially meaningless descriptors. You state a premise here, that is all.
Well now here is the analysis, a two part one. Two reasons, then the two what I will call principles.
Principle #1: Timing
Principle #2: Distance
Okey dokey. That's something.
This is what you are summing up martial arts skill as? Two word? No definition, No description even. WOW... the boxing professionals alone should be rolling their eyes. I suppose I should replace the entire traditional karate curriculm / manual / method with two, not even defined "principle" words. A martial college profession in the making.
State the premise and conclusion in a single sentence in your argument. Hope you aren't representing any one in court. Or pitching a business plan for funding.
I do see this proposition 1000's of time from MMA Camps on "WHAT IT'S ALL ABOUT TO BE A GOOD FIGHTER IN MMA." Yep timing & distance have to get that. That's it! Get it.
I'm going to get a sample vid right know, just to back you up!
If you think...you know what, never mind. You're not listening.Yep by my approach, you are lost.
Sentence 1. Yep, Traditional karate the art speaks of that self-mastery.
Sentence 2. Well, there's a difference in method between TMA and combat sports. So then there is a difference in self-mastery if you concur on the premise.
Most MMA fighter we in the major venues are relatively unskilled animals. They are conditioned heavily, that I'll grant. They are aggressive at putting out some kind of technique bet it Muay Thai or BJJ, etc. Only a minor percentage have any level of skill. And self-mastery is a rare commodity in MMA indeed.
Here's prime beef example.
Was Khabib Rocked Against Michael Johnson? Joe Rogan Exposed
134,332 views
FR MMA 2
Published on Apr 12, 2018
Michael Johnson's striking against Khabib was lauded as among the most effective to date, leading up to the Conor McGregor title defense fight.
Michael Johnson winging hay maker/ looping punches, whiffing all along, arm punching absent boxer body mechanics, leading with his head and chin, leaning out of stance, slopping up a jerky front kick that goes part way, and on & on. And this is a top UFC competitor going up against the fearsome Khabib N., the master grappler? Chasing Khabib haphazardly all around the Octagon. No wonder Khabib always gets the takedown
These MMA Camps don't produce masters of anything. MMA Camps in the USA produce aggressive, physically fit guys (and gals) who know how to go out & kick and punch through elemental striking drills, for the most part. The grappling quality is higher somewhat because we have the Gracie BJJ which is a well developed art. Khabib's wrestling is off the charts comparatively speaking in MMA. Other good wrestlers came along in MMA,such as Matt Hughes, GSP developed some good wrestling.
MMA strikers can't even begin to compare with the effective striking we see in formal JKA REGIONAL Championships. Here nice example.
SAJKA 2018 Day 2 - Highlights - Elite Divisions
1,852 views
Karin Prinsloo For The Love Of Karate
Published on Aug 12, 2018
I wouldn't vote any of these regional competitor top echelon at the World competition level. They are, however, working on self mastery, landing strikes efficiently & effectively. It's point fighting for cripes sake, and there are instances of stopping, dropping the opponent in their tracks. Yeah, good karate tournament striking can stuff, stop & drop the oncoming grappler spot on. The Michael Johnson's too, all in principle.
Sorry Royce, move over, there's a new karate sheriff in town!!!!
ShotoNoob
Master Black Belt
Hey, I promised to get back. Mastery of timing & distance. Here we go according to is it Hanzou?
Boxing vs Jiu-Jitsu: Can You Get the Takedown?
36,934 views
Dojo Mark
Published on May 9, 2017
Dojo Mark of Dojo Americana is doing just what you advocate. Live opponent boxer. BJJ (ah practice wrestling Dojoj Mark adds) coming in repeatedly over & over & over & over, getting that timing & distance down? The one BJJ student, Dojo Mark proclaims, is better at timing and distancing in grappling because he competed in boxing as a teenager.
Problem solved. JKA Japan, close down right away. Dojo American is where it's at.
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