Why until recently effective TMA practitioners were not represented in MMA?

[Martial D]

Hey, I promised to get back. Mastery of timing & distance. Here we go according to is it Hanzou?
Boxing vs Jiu-Jitsu: Can You Get the Takedown?
36,934 views

Dojo Mark
Published on May 9, 2017

Dojo Mark of Dojo Americana is doing just what you advocate. Live opponent boxer. BJJ (ah practice wrestling Dojoj Mark adds) coming in repeatedly over & over & over & over, getting that timing & distance down? The one BJJ student, Dojo Mark proclaims, is better at timing and distancing in grappling because he competed in boxing as a teenager.

Problem solved. JKA Japan, close down right away. Dojo American is where it's at.

Ok, so you missed my point..or you got it but your reply still makes no sense. Either way, I gave it a shot.

For the record, what is your native language?

 

[ShotoNoob]

If you think...you know what, never mind. You're not listening.

You think? Well partially made, wandering, inconclusive, phrases aren't answering. I do think. It's a strong point to have in traditional martial arts.

Look, GPS, you have your own brand of aikido-jutsu grappling, which you have evolved just like MMA thinking. Here's an MMA heart-warmer to pause the controls on for now.
JOANNA JEDRZEJCZYK VS. ROSE NAMAJUNAS - FIGHT HIGHLIGHTS (HD
821 views

FightRadio
Published on Nov 5, 2017

Nobody in WMMA, nobody has more experience on striking "timing & distancing," than Joanna Jedrzejczyk. Muay Thai champion with hundreds, (literally) hundreds of Muay Thai and kick boxing matches, it's so reported. Vaunted as the best WMMA striker of her time, until that is, a string of what was it, 14? unbroken victories against all those modernly trained MMA competitors all primed for that realistic MMA fighting.

BOOM. Petite little passive Ross Namajunas, knocks JJ down then again & out how far into Round 1? Not long. Couple minutes. HUH? Guess that timing & distancing training by TOP MMA Camp, ATT with it's roster of big name MMA competitors made a miscalculation somewhere in it's MMA striking routines. Pro Am boxing skill took out their girl straightaway.

MMA doesn't make for a standard in anything. It's a test of competitors who want to do full contact combat sports. That is all.

Timing & distancing ATT, yeah we got it all!

 

[ShotoNoob]

Ok, so you missed my point..or you got it but your reply still makes no sense. Either way, I gave it a shot.

For the record, what is your native language?

I missed your point. What point? WORDS 1&2?

I make no sense. You are serious, right? You have sense?

Native language,? now that's progress in a discussion. Bravo.

 

[Tez3]

And now soccer moms are doing what nobody thought soldiers could do.

They are just running away from their kids!

 

[Tez3]

moooooooooooooo.

Are you alright or having a 'moment' ?

 

[FriedRice]

Are you alright or having a 'moment' ?

oink

 

[FriedRice]

You think? Well partially made, wandering, inconclusive, phrases aren't answering. I do think. It's a strong point to have in traditional martial arts.

Look, GPS, you have your own brand of aikido-jutsu grappling, which you have evolved just like MMA thinking.

Wrong. GSP is MMA with a Karatechop background. There are plenty of Karate chopping MMA gyms with great fighters you know.

Here's an MMA heart-warmer to pause the controls on for now.
JOANNA JEDRZEJCZYK VS. ROSE NAMAJUNAS - FIGHT HIGHLIGHTS (HD
821 views

FightRadio
Published on Nov 5, 2017

What does that prove? They're both MMA.

Nobody in WMMA, nobody has more experience on striking "timing & distancing," than Joanna Jedrzejczyk. Muay Thai champion with hundreds, (literally) hundreds of Muay Thai and kick boxing matches, it's so reported.

Babe, go look up her record first, it's not even, ONE hundred....let alone "literally hundreds" of fights.

Vaunted as the best WMMA striker of her time, until that is, a string of what was it, 14? unbroken victories against all those modernly trained MMA competitors all primed for that realistic MMA fighting.

BOOM. Petite little passive Ross Namajunas, knocks JJ down then again & out how far into Round 1? Not long. Couple minutes. HUH? Guess that timing & distancing training by TOP MMA Camp, ATT with it's roster of big name MMA competitors made a miscalculation somewhere in it's MMA striking routines. Pro Am boxing skill took out their girl straightaway. [/QUOTE]

Big deal? Nobody's unbeatable. Western Boxing + Muay Thai is what RN trains and it usually beats Muay Thai.

MMA doesn't make for a standard in anything. It's a test of competitors who want to do full contact combat sports. That is all.

Timing & distancing ATT, yeah we got it all!

Says you, who never trained MMA, let alone fought full contact in it. "BOOM"?

 

[Tony Dismukes]

Look, GPS, you have your own brand of aikido-jutsu grappling

Wrong. GSP is MMA with a Karatechop background. There are plenty of Karate chopping MMA gyms with great fighters you know.

FYI, ShotoNoob was talking to gpseymour (GPS) not about George St Pierre (GSP).

 

[Gerry Seymour]

FYI, ShotoNoob was talking to gpseymour (GPS) not about George St Pierre (GSP).

Agreed. Although in fairness to @FriedRice, @ShotoNoob has reversed my initials a few times, calling me GSP. I also think FR has me on ignore, which will make it hard to follow that bit.

 

[ShotoNoob]

Wrong. GSP is MMA with a Karatechop background. There are plenty of Karate chopping MMA gyms with great fighters you know.

Karatechop background(s). Tnx for filling us in.

What does that prove? They're both MMA.

Nothing to FiredRyces. Isn't it time for your heavy bag workout, then nap?

Babe, go look up her record first, it's not even, ONE hundred....let alone "literally hundreds" of fights.

Okay, Mr. Statistician. Buddy to Babe, a progression! That's the ticket. Karate tradition may suit you yet.

BOOM. Petite little passive Ross Namajunas, knocks JJ down then again & out how far into Round 1? Not long. Couple minutes. HUH? Guess that timing & distancing training by TOP MMA Camp, ATT with it's roster of big name MMA competitors made a miscalculation somewhere in it's MMA striking routines. Pro Am boxing skill took out their girl straightaway.

Big deal? Nobody's unbeatable. Western Boxing + Muay Thai is what RN trains and it usually beats Muay Thai.

Huh, I thought it was a big deal to JJ. And all the Muay Thai super Tiger fighters. To see their standard bearer go down in flames. Tiger Muay Thai ain't so top after all. YOU SAID IT.

Gee, I thought you were going to credit TKD that Rose started like your shallow GSP comment earlier. At least you could consistent in you MMA marketing rhetoric. Fly'd Ryce, what'd expect.

Says you, who never trained MMA, let alone fought full contact in it. "BOOM"?

Oh, the appeal to authority argument. What you mean if you're dumb enough to get your head caved in, you're smart (dumb) enough to be able to speak on the subject. Dumb & dumber finally arrived.

Left out what many of the 'big name' MMA training camps are now saying on the subject.

Closing Comment: What school(s) are you advertising for. Let me guess?

 

[ShotoNoob]

FYI, ShotoNoob was talking to gpseymour (GPS) not about George St Pierre (GSP).

TONY DISMUKES’ POST:

So here’s the deal regarding jiu-jitsu and strength:

Jiu-jitsu is absolutely about using strength. To be precise, it’s about using your available strength as efficiently and effectively as possible, When you see criticism about someone “muscling through a technique”, the problem isn’t that they’re using strength – it’s that they’re wasting strength. Either they’re trying to overpower their opponent’s strength head on (which will only work as long as the person doing the technique is the stronger one) or they’re using their strength in an inefficient fashion which involves more effort than necessary, causing them to tire out and deplete their reserves of strength prematurely.

That’s how jiu-jitsu can allow you to overcome a stronger opponent. When I outgrapple someone who is twice as strong as I am, it’s because I’m using my available strength more than twice.

SOURCE: Self Defense Academy of Western NC

See Tony, now this makes sense. It's well thought out, presented clearly & conveys substance.

Now try that in your replies. You sound like someone let the air out of your ballon.

 

[FriedRice]

Karatechop background(s). Tnx for filling us in.


Nothing to FiredRyces. Isn't it time for your heavy bag workout, then nap?

Okay, Mr. Statistician. Buddy to Babe, a progression! That's the ticket. Karate tradition may suit you yet.

The truth hurts, babe? When's your nap time? After some tipyy-tappy sparring?

Huh, I thought it was a big deal to JJ. And all the Muay Thai super Tiger fighters. To see their standard bearer go down in flames. Tiger Muay Thai ain't so top after all. YOU SAID IT.

Seems to only matter to the Karatechoppers like yourself, even when Rose probably trains mostly Boxing, Sanda and BJJ.

Gee, I thought you were going to credit TKD that Rose started like your shallow GSP comment earlier. At least you could consistent in you MMA marketing rhetoric. Fly'd Ryce, what'd expect.

Sorry Karatechopper, but I guess mommy put you in a strip mall Karate dojo so now you think that means everything to a Pro Fighter.

Oh, the appeal to authority argument. What you mean if you're dumb enough to get your head caved in, you're smart (dumb) enough to be able to speak on the subject. Dumb & dumber finally arrived.

Left out what many of the 'big name' MMA training camps are now saying on the subject.

Closing Comment: What school(s) are you advertising for. Let me guess?

Crying now because you can't make an argument?

 

[FriedRice]

FYI, ShotoNoob was talking to gpseymour (GPS) not about George St Pierre (GSP).

oh, haha.

 

[ShotoNoob]

Agreed. Although in fairness to @FriedRice, @ShotoNoob has reversed my initials a few times, calling me GSP. I also think FR has me on ignore, which will make it hard to follow that bit.

Yeah, us MMA fans have GSP engrained in our heads. One of my fav fights of his was his loss to Brawler Matt Serra, who GSP tried some clever TriStar boxing with. Got GSP smashed.

Later however, we found out GSP wasn't prepared mentally for that fight according to his later commentary. We're all human and he had personal troubles weighing him down. And funny like me, he says personally he hates full contact fighting. Wow. GSP & I feel the same way!

 

[ShotoNoob]

Seems to only matter to the Karatechoppers like yourself, even when Rose probably trains mostly Boxing, Sanda and BJJ.

Applies to 4th graders. Wright on BUDDY.

Sorry Karatechopper, but I guess mommy put you in a strip mall Karate dojo so now you think that means everything to a Pro Fighter.

Applies to 4th graders. Wright on BUDDY.

Crying now because you can't make an argument?

Applies to 4th graders. Wright on BUDDY.

and YOU WIN. "Rose probably trains mostly Boxing, Sanda and BJJ." That's some analysis there. YOU THE MAN!

 

[Tony Dismukes]

SOURCE: Self Defense Academy of Western NC

See Tony, now this makes sense. It's well thought out, presented clearly & conveys substance.

Now try that in your replies. You sound like someone let the air out of your ballon.

Here we have another example of why people are having a hard time understanding the points you are trying to make.

First you quote a brief comment I made clarifying who you were referring to in an earlier reply.

Then you quote a much longer essay I wrote on a completely unrelated topic.

Then you complement the essay and suggest I write that way in my replies, then you insult the way I am writing.

Are you suggesting the first quote should have been an extensive essay? That hardly seems appropriate for a brief clarification that only needed one sentence.

Are you suggesting that the second quote isn't the way I write in conversations on MartialTalk? If so, you should probably realize that even though you found that bit of writing on Gerry's website, it's actually just copied and pasted from one of the threads here. I think most of the regulars on MartialTalk would probably recognize it as my writing style.

You're taking the time and effort to write a fair number of longish posts on this forum. I expect that means you would like people to understand the arguments you are making. Unfortunately, I think most of us are pretty confused by now as to what you are actually trying to say most of the time. I'd suggest that for the moment you put aside the videos, quotes, and personal attacks to focus on clearly explaining your points.

 

[Flying Crane]

FYI, ShotoNoob was talking to gpseymour (GPS) not about George St Pierre (GSP).

I thought he was making some weird reference to GPS mapping systems. Like somehow he was on the right course, found his compass, something like that.

I cannot make sense of the fellow.

 

[Steve]

I think it depends how they train. TMA isn't a consistent training model, so if you sent those folks to 100 random TMA programs, you're probably going to get a huge range of results. As we've discussed before, one of the advantages of some types of competition is they tend to weed out programs/instructors who can't deliver a win, or at least a competitive...competitor. A good TMA school, with a focus on what actually works in a fight (as we've talked about before - not actually the focus of all TMA schools), should be able to produce reasonable results in that same timeframe. I'd guess they'll be in the same ballpark, under that last assumption. Of course, that also has to assume all 300 stay in the program - competition does tend to also weed out people who don't develop as fast or are less gifted (not a universal, but a general truism). Of course, the question remains...are we talking about TMA with no competition? I'd guess that TMA with competition (something roughly similar to the format we're evaluating on) will have somewhat better results than if there's no competition. Internal (informal) competition inside the school will be better than no competition, but probably less effective than open competition.

All that presupposes the competition we're talking about (including the combat sport) are training something in alignment with the assessment we're doing at the end. BJJ fare badly if the end test is striking, but better if it's fewer rules. And a similar setup for boxing (though they seem to be less adaptable to open rules if they don't train to it). Likewise, a TMA school that doesn't train to a similar fight style to the ruleset will have more trouble.

My hypothesis is that the range of results would not be as wide as you think. I wish we could do this study. I think it would be worthwhile.

The other study I would Like to do is a statistical analysis of actual self defense situations. My hypothesis is that people who train in any martial art regardless of style are no more likely to survive in self-defense than those who don't train in a martial art at all. In other words people who don't train martial arts Will Survive physical encounters at the same rate as people who do trained in martial arts. Further I think that it really has more to do with Fitness and willingness to fight back then ability to fight or skill.

 

[FriedRice]

Applies to 4th graders. Wright on BUDDY.


Applies to 4th graders. Wright on BUDDY.



Applies to 4th graders. Wright on BUDDY.

and YOU WIN. "Rose probably trains mostly Boxing, Sanda and BJJ." That's some analysis there. YOU THE MAN!

Wow, you're really smart for a 4th grader. Although you should get mommy to have you checked out as..... "Restricted and repetitive behaviors and interests are among the three core symptoms of autism".

 

[Gerry Seymour]

My hypothesis is that the range of results would not be as wide as you think. I wish we could do this study. I think it would be worthwhile.

The other study I would Like to do is a statistical analysis of actual self defense situations. My hypothesis is that people who train in any martial art regardless of style are no more likely to survive in self-defense than those who don't train in a martial art at all. In other words people who don't train martial arts Will Survive physical encounters at the same rate as people who do trained in martial arts. Further I think that it really has more to do with Fitness and willingness to fight back then ability to fight or skill.

Both of those are possible. Unlikely, in my estimation, but possible.

The former would defy the experience of a lot of people, that training methods matter.

The latter is too undefined to work for statistics in any case. Some types of attack are less likely to become more survivable by fighting skills. Some others likely do change. There’s really too broad a spectrum to treat them all as one. It’s kind of like talking about illness.