Why the hate between TMA and MMA?

[Tez3]

I cannot explain why most people who enter MMA tournaments with Wing Chun get demolished.

If they are it's because no fighter in MMA is a one style fighter, all good fighters have taken techniques from as many styles as they need to.
I get rather tired of these arguments that say a particular style is no good in MMA, it's nonsense because the very name gives it away MIXED martial arts, so why do the ignorant keep going on about Wing Chun/Aikido/karate etc etc being no good? There are techniques in all these styles that work along when put into the mix, to be honest there shouldn't be much to differentiate styles when you watch a fighter. He doesn't do one style for kicks, another for strikes and yet another for takedowns, they should all be a smooth mix flowing from one move to the next, a good fighter is always a couple of moves ahead anyway.

Anyway I thought you'd like this, Sami Berik from Wing Chun ( with a very young Grant Waterman reffing)

 

[Paul_D]

Well let's use an example here;

This is one of Shotokan's basic kata;

Here are two Shotokan karateka sparring;

As you can see, little to none of the movement or technique shown in that kata is expressed in the fighting form. I'd argue that you'd be better served simply drilling kicks, and punches (boxing style) whike staying in back stance instead of doing that kata.

Kata is for self defence (non consensual violence), sparring is for fighting (consensual violence) so you wouldn't expect them to look the same.

 

[Hanzou]

Kata is for self defence (non consensual violence), sparring is for fighting (consensual violence) so you wouldn't expect them to look the same.

So now we're going to pretend that self defense has nothing to do with fighting ability?

Are we really going to act like a woman who practices kata all the time is just as capable as MMA fighters like Mckenzie Dern or Holly Holm to get a big guy off of them?

You can have the best looking kata on the planet, but none of that is going to help when you start getting punched in the face. If you're used to fighting, and getting punched, then you have a better chance of dealing with it. If you spent your training time punching and kicking air, and thinking about Okinawan fairy tales of peasants killing Samurai with farm equipment, you're going to be in for a very long night.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

Kata is for self defence (non consensual violence), sparring is for fighting (consensual violence) so you wouldn't expect them to look the same.

Form/Kata is a solo training to "polish" your fighting skill. A groin kick, face punch combo should work in both SD and fighting.

 

[Hanzou]

If they are it's because no fighter in MMA is a one style fighter, all good fighters have taken techniques from as many styles as they need to.
I get rather tired of these arguments that say a particular style is no good in MMA, it's nonsense because the very name gives it away MIXED martial arts, so why do the ignorant keep going on about Wing Chun/Aikido/karate etc etc being no good? There are techniques in all these styles that work along when put into the mix, to be honest there shouldn't be much to differentiate styles when you watch a fighter. He doesn't do one style for kicks, another for strikes and yet another for takedowns, they should all be a smooth mix flowing from one move to the next, a good fighter is always a couple of moves ahead anyway.

Kron Gracie and Mckenzie Dern are both Bjj fighters in MMA. Kron especially makes it a point to use old school Gjj in his fights.

There's also folks like Angela Lee, Ryan Hall, and Damien Maia who are mainly doing Bjj when they're fighting.

 

[Kong Soo Do]

So now we're going to pretend that self defense has nothing to do with fighting ability?

Are we really going to act like a woman who practices kata all the time is just as capable as MMA fighters like Mckenzie Dern or Holly Holm to get a big guy off of them?

You can have the best looking kata on the planet, but none of that is going to help when you start getting punched in the face. If you're used to fighting, and getting punched, then you have a better chance of dealing with it. If you spent your training time punching and kicking air, and thinking about Okinawan fairy tales of peasants killing Samurai with farm equipment, you're going to be in for a very long night.

Bunkai has been explained to you, in detail, multiple times. Your failure, or refusal to understand it's value in no way invalidates it's effectiveness when properly applied to training.

 

[drop bear]

Kata is for self defence (non consensual violence), sparring is for fighting (consensual violence) so you wouldn't expect them to look the same.

Bunkai has been explained to you, in detail, multiple times. Your failure, or refusal to understand it's value in no way invalidates it's effectiveness when properly applied to training.

If it is properly applied.

But the quote above is still wrong in pretty much every conceivable way.

 

[Kong Soo Do]

If it is properly applied.

But the quote above is still wrong in pretty much every conceivable way.

No, I'd say Paul's statement hit the nail on the head.

 

[drop bear]

No, I'd say Paul's statement hit the nail on the head.

This is kind of the crux of mma hate for tma.

Just these effectively unsupported ideas that have no validity exept in huge leaps of complicated logic. And statements like "i am right because black belt."

This isn't all TMA but it gets represented as a TMA mindset.

 

[Steve]

No, I'd say Paul's statement hit the nail on the head.

It's hard to keep up. Are you saying that hitting a nail on the head is a consensual fight or was it self defense? Did the nail have it coming?

 

[Buka]

It's hard to keep up. Are you saying that hitting a nail on the head is a consensual fight or was it self defense? Did the nail have it coming?

Oh, sure, make me spit coffee all over my keyboard. Again.

And to anyone reading this, it is not a statement concerning anyone's thoughts in the thread, it's about Steve's word play. (Damn mess he made of my computer.)

 

[Kong Soo Do]

This is kind of the crux of mma hate for tma.

Just these effectively unsupported ideas that have no validity exept in huge leaps of complicated logic. And statements like "i am right because black belt."

This isn't all TMA but it gets represented as a TMA mindset.

Unsupported ideas? No, from experience. I don't 'spar' as you understand sparring. I train kata/bunkai. And I've effectively fought against armed and unarmed violent felons for nearly 30 years with such training (42 years total training). Why? Simply because I understand the value of such training, and how to effectively apply it. It isn't magic. It is simply an effective way to deal with bad guys trying to do bad things.

 

[Headhunter]

Unsupported ideas? No, from experience. I don't 'spar' as you understand sparring. I train kata/bunkai. And I've effectively fought against armed and unarmed violent felons for nearly 30 years with such training (42 years total training). Why? Simply because I understand the value of such training, and how to effectively apply it. It isn't magic. It is simply an effective way to deal with bad guys trying to do bad things.

Thing is with sparring is what if you're just training 1 on 1 with a teacher and no one else obviously you wouldn't be able to do much sparring so you'd just learn the technique.

Personally I enjoy sparring it's fun but not necessary. I've sparred more since I retired from competing but during my 15 year career I sparred about 3 times and I had a very successful career so it's absolutely not the be all and end all that some make it out to be.

 

[drop bear]

Unsupported ideas? No, from experience. I don't 'spar' as you understand sparring. I train kata/bunkai. And I've effectively fought against armed and unarmed violent felons for nearly 30 years with such training (42 years total training). Why? Simply because I understand the value of such training, and how to effectively apply it. It isn't magic. It is simply an effective way to deal with bad guys trying to do bad things.

"I fought a bunch of guys" is almost the definition of unsupported.

I fought a dragon once. An actual fire breathing dragon. Can you beat that?

 

[Steve]

"I fought a bunch of guys" is almost the definition of unsupported.

I fought a dragon once. An actual fire breathing dragon. Can you beat that?

Whoa. That's tough to beat. Paul D hit a nail once. Right on its head. I killed a grizzly bear when I was only three. KSD trained with hoyce gracie.

 

[drop bear]

Whoa. That's tough to beat. Paul D hit a nail once. Right on its head. I killed a grizzly bear when I was only three. KSD trained with hoyce gracie.

We should start our own super team.

"Quick there is a bomb that will go off and destroy the world. And a dragon bear is guarding it. The only way to turn it off is hitting that nail on top of its head"

Extra points for being able to name that superhero team.

 

[CB Jones]

Are we really going to act like a woman who practices kata all the time is just as capable as MMA fighters like Mckenzie Dern or Holly Holm to get a big guy off of them?

Are we gonna act like the average person training at a mma gym has the skill level of a professional fighter?

 

[Hanzou]

Are we gonna act like the average person training at a mma gym has the skill level of a professional fighter?

According to Paul D, all you need is kata to be "street ready". Plenty of average people perform great looking katas.

Too bad they don't train kata at MMA gyms.

 

[Sami Ibrahim]

Many paths available for gaining skills to protect yourself from violence, the MMA venue offers a path the TMA schools offer their paths but its always up to the individual to walk whatever path they select and take whatever it is their learning to the point of meeting their needs, because individuals are all different and have different needs their is no one size fits all supreme path for everyone. As Soldier serving in a time of war I had specific needs before and during that time so a martial art that did not adequately teach me how to cope with well-trained enemies using a multitude of weapons in a wide variety of environments would not have worked for me even if it was something that would work great for self-defense from a civilian stand-point, that is just how it is, now I am retiring and have many injuries and I am trying to adjust to civilian life and tone down my warrior-mindset, so my needs have changed again and so to has my way of training. Just my 2 cents sure hope I didn't offend anyone by making the point that different paths of training fit different people better.

 

[Mou Meng Gung Fu]

I don't know anything about forms. I don't know anything about Shotokan as it is today. All I know is the Shotokan guys I fought a long time ago. They didn't move anything like kickboxers, but they used to hit like jack hammers. Never liked fighting the SonsObeeches, they hurt you like there was no tomorrow. Even when you beat them.

I guess times have changed.

Times do change, unfortunately (though for some people change is good). I've noticed that times can also change in different places at different times. I don't remember many Karate or Taekwondo schools who practiced freestyle sparring when I was younger. Where I lived, almost all the open-door martial arts schools were still practicing point-sparring (they weren't actually making any contact). Also, the competitions back then were very stylized. Karate practitioners only competed against other Karate practitioners. Judo only competed against Judo, and TKD only competed against TKD, that's just how it was. That was even up into the 1990's where I lived. But nowadays, it seems like every Karate and TKD style I see looks like kickboxing. There is a lot more contact-sparring now, with less stylized competitions occurring between different schools. I think it's good.