Why the hate between TMA and MMA?

[Gerry Seymour]

I have yet to see a traditional Karate or Kung Fu system that performs kata/forms the way you describe. What system are you talking about in particular?

My brief training in Shotokan, some cross-training with some Karate students .... I don't remember their style, but it was a couple of Karate students, and the forms found in NGA.

 

[CB Jones]

If someone kicked me in the nuts at the chip shop. why don't my friends stomp his head flat?

Because you don't have any.

Nuts or friends?

 

[Hanzou]

My brief training in Shotokan, some cross-training with some Karate students .... I don't remember their style, but it was a couple of Karate students, and the forms found in NGA.

Shotokan? Almost none of Shotokan's kata appear in their sparring/fighting form. At best, Shotokan's fighting form resembles kickboxing.

 

[JowGaWolf]

And you can't make the argument that they are different just because a specific style (or several) don't. The forms I've trained in, taught, and developed, used the same movement and power generation as the application.

Same here. The only difference between my power generation in form and power generation in application is that I pull a lot of power off the application of that power so I don't knock my sparring partners out. In the form I can throw as much power as I want without consequence of having my fist explode (aka busting my knuckles) from hitting something that's harder than my fist. If anything, I would think students would have the tendency to mess up driving the power in application because they feel that they need to force the power in an effort to try to hit hard.

 

[Mou Meng Gung Fu]

I think most of it is from people who aren't that well-versed in their own systems. Serious martial artists who have been training for many years tend to have a great deal more respect for each other, I think.

I agree with this statement.

 

[Jenna]

I've been looking through forums and am seeing so much hate between TMA and MMA / Kickboxing / BJJ, I've also experienced this from people I've met.

My question is, where does all the hate come from? I've trained in different TMA's and also in K1-Kickboxing and I just don't get why anyone would have a reason to hate one or the other so much.

What I mainly hear, from both sides, is that they're ineffective, don't work in a real fight and that everyone who participates are egotistical.

I wonder it is because people like to think they are, and but some time fear they are not.. backing the winning team.. where "team" represent your art, your thing, your position, your party, your side or favourite, your what ever??

1. Is true right that where you are on the de facto winning team you have not anything to prove nor to argue, well unless you lack magnanimity, yes?

2. Is only where you are admit self-doubt that your team is the winning team, that there is need to elevate your position and one way to feel elevation of your position is to negate, decry, degrade or seek to invalidate the other thing, the opposing thing.. what appear as hate I would wonder could this be overzealous or fanatical debasing of that opposing thing for this reason?? cannot be sure..

You know we see this zealotry and debasing of the opposing thing in most field of human endeavour, yes?? is not just martial arts and but any interest, hobby, among academics even notable scientists, celebrity and fans of celebrity, among proselytes of religions and parties, or nationalists across and within borders.. what ever.. is wide spread human practice.. martial artists are susceptible as any one else??

 

[Gerry Seymour]

Shotokan? Almost none of Shotokan's kata appear in their sparring/fighting form. At best, Shotokan's fighting form resembles kickboxing.

It may be that my instructor taught them differently. As I said, my time in Shotokan was brief. The training I received in forms focused on movements that were relatively similar to movements we used in application. What was in the forms was more genericized (movements applicable to several situations) and rigidly controlled (emphasizing a very specific movement, rather than practicing across a range). I would compare it to when I'm working on a specific issue with a punch, for instance. I recently had a shoulder injury (last year), that led me to some bad habits on my left side, especially with any hooking punch. To fix it, I would spend time on the heavy bag repeating an exact punch over and over, with little power behind it, at a controlled speed. It was quite a bit like working a movement from a form, IMO. I do a lot of the same thing with many of my techniques when I am in a hotel room, practicing a single technique or a series of techniques over and over to examine the movement and how it would apply (or not apply) to different situations.

 

[Buka]

I don't know anything about forms. I don't know anything about Shotokan as it is today. All I know is the Shotokan guys I fought a long time ago. They didn't move anything like kickboxers, but they used to hit like jack hammers. Never liked fighting the SonsObeeches, they hurt you like there was no tomorrow. Even when you beat them.

I guess times have changed.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

I wonder it is because people like to think they are, and but some time fear they are not.. backing the winning team.. where "team" represent your art, your thing, your position, your party, your side or favourite, your what ever??

1. Is true right that where you are on the de facto winning team you have not anything to prove nor to argue, well unless you lack magnanimity, yes?

2. Is only where you are admit self-doubt that your team is the winning team, that there is need to elevate your position and one way to feel elevation of your position is to negate, decry, degrade or seek to invalidate the other thing, the opposing thing.. what appear as hate I would wonder could this be overzealous or fanatical debasing of that opposing thing for this reason?? cannot be sure..

You know we see this zealotry and debasing of the opposing thing in most field of human endeavour, yes?? is not just martial arts and but any interest, hobby, among academics even notable scientists, celebrity and fans of celebrity, among proselytes of religions and parties, or nationalists across and within borders.. what ever.. is wide spread human practice.. martial artists are susceptible as any one else??

I'd argue that for some folks, their personal insecurity may lead them to this kind of behavior, even if their art/system/etc. is on solid ground. They won't acknowledge the value of another method, perhaps because they view that as degrading what they do, even if it does not actually do so.

I think there's also an element of what I refer to in management training as "must be best or is awful". This is where there's some arguably objective "best", and the assumption becomes that anything less is simply unworthy, regardless of how good it is. This comes up a lot in the competition training discussion. It can be reasonably argued that training with outside competition provides an advantage over identical training without it. (There is an argument to the contrary, which is valid, but carries less weight.) Now, I've seen arguments become entirely binary about this, wherein it is apparently argued that training without competition is inherently weak. Note that I didn't say "weaker", which would be a defensible position. To me, this binary approach would be like discovering that a specific type of bicep curl is more effective than other types, then arguing that all other types are crap, even though they produce reasonable results. It also misses the issue of fitness of approach (not everyone is interested in training at the level required to compete, nor take the physical punishment inherent in some competition). This is similar to the "MMA or TMA" debate, in that it often includes people saying one is "right" and the other is "wrong", without recognizing gradations between those points.

 

[Xue Sheng]

I don't know anything about forms. I don't know anything about Shotokan as it is today. All I know is the Shotokan guys I fought a long time ago. They didn't move anything like kickboxers, but they used to hit like jack hammers. Never liked fighting the SonsObeeches, they hurt you like there was no tomorrow. Even when you beat them.

I guess times have changed.

Ran into the same thing with a Southern white crane guy. He also popped back up like a weeble if you knocked him down. And if he could not get up immediately the flurry of kicks and punches that came t you from the ground was an amazing (as well as painful) thing to witness/experience.

Also old school Chinese Police vs other country police (and Muay Thai) Sanda matches in China. There was one of the Chinese police guys would stand there, out of range, watching the other guy bob and weave. Then move in fast, take (and give a few hits) then move out. He would do this 3 or 4 times. The 3rd or 4th time, he would move in fast, hit, knock the other guy out...end of fight

 

[Sami Ibrahim]

I've been looking through forums and am seeing so much hate between TMA and MMA / Kickboxing / BJJ, I've also experienced this from people I've met.

My question is, where does all the hate come from? I've trained in different TMA's and also in K1-Kickboxing and I just don't get why anyone would have a reason to hate one or the other so much.

What I mainly hear, from both sides, is that they're ineffective, don't work in a real fight and that everyone who participates are egotistical.

Well back in the day we had matches like Judo expert vs Western Boxing and Chinese Martial Arts expert versus Russian Wrestler, the fans of each hoping their side wins and the publicity was always along the lines of "proving once and for all which was superior" but the hate really started with the Gracie family doing the challenge matches and putting up the videos humiliating their opponents who they always claimed were real experts and worthy representatives of the various other arts, they got the UFC ball rolling and that title says it all "Ultimate" Fighting, meanwhile the Martial Arts world did learn a valuable lesson those that don't have enough training in a particular kind of fighting can be outclassed by someone who can stay there and specialized in that type of fighting ( I mean those that didn't already know that) so much like racism it is often passed down... students heard their seniors mocking or talking smack about this or that other thing and adopted the same view with little question.

Enter the era where vast portions of the population are MMA fans some of whom seek instruction in the sport which created the illusion of competition for the traditional studio, given time people will get over it, many traditional schools now offer MMA training programs and others are at least having their students work to counter methods commonly seen in MMA competition. Other arts just stick to what they been doing for centuries and shrug at the hype.

 

[Tez3]

I don't know anything about forms. I don't know anything about Shotokan as it is today. All I know is the Shotokan guys I fought a long time ago. They didn't move anything like kickboxers, but they used to hit like jack hammers. Never liked fighting the SonsObeeches, they hurt you like there was no tomorrow. Even when you beat them.

I guess times have changed.

Here it was guys like Ticky Donovan, Vic Charles (Wado Ryu, one of my heroes), Eugene Coddrington ( another Wado Ryu guy) Wayne Otto, Dominique Valera. they can do kata with a purpose and fight like hell, as you say hit like jackhammers.

 

[DanT]

As a traditional martial artist, I can only provide a slightly biased opinion, but it's an opinion none the less.

TMA Fan Boy: All u mma bois cnt win against tru shoalin kong fu!

MMA Fan Boy: Come pruv it in UFC then!

TMA Fan Boy: I cnt fight in mma becuz I will kill them

MMA Fan Boy: mma is da best we take moves from BJJ and were the best

TMA Fan Boy: do u even train bro?

MMA Fan Boy: no but i watchd sum fites

TMA Fan Boy: oh yeah! I watched IP Man 2 Ip man would kill gsp

ETC.....

At the end of the day its mostly the fan boys who dont train or train one day a week who think they're the best that make the most noise. We have more similarities then differences. I have so many MMA friends. I spar them, sometimes I win, sometimes I lose. At the end of the day we try to all get better together. There's this one guy on youtube, he comments on wing chun and mma videos yelling that he knows the secret wing chun, his name is mightymeatmonsta, i dont know if you guys see his comments, but he goes on and on about real wing chun and how everyone is wrong, he comments on MMA vids on how they suck, he's an embarrasment to us chunners and the funny thing is, he's a fan boy!

 

[Hanzou]

It may be that my instructor taught them differently. As I said, my time in Shotokan was brief. The training I received in forms focused on movements that were relatively similar to movements we used in application. What was in the forms was more genericized (movements applicable to several situations) and rigidly controlled (emphasizing a very specific movement, rather than practicing across a range). I would compare it to when I'm working on a specific issue with a punch, for instance. I recently had a shoulder injury (last year), that led me to some bad habits on my left side, especially with any hooking punch. To fix it, I would spend time on the heavy bag repeating an exact punch over and over, with little power behind it, at a controlled speed. It was quite a bit like working a movement from a form, IMO. I do a lot of the same thing with many of my techniques when I am in a hotel room, practicing a single technique or a series of techniques over and over to examine the movement and how it would apply (or not apply) to different situations.

Well let's use an example here;

This is one of Shotokan's basic kata;

Here are two Shotokan karateka sparring;

As you can see, little to none of the movement or technique shown in that kata is expressed in the fighting form. I'd argue that you'd be better served simply drilling kicks, and punches (boxing style) whike staying in back stance instead of doing that kata.

 

[Tez3]

I'll state the obvious, kata is for self defence techniques not sparring. We train kata Bunkai AND sparring as two different things. Sparring is a sports directed activity, kata is not.

 

[Tony Dismukes]

I'd argue that for some folks, their personal insecurity may lead them to this kind of behavior, even if their art/system/etc. is on solid ground. They won't acknowledge the value of another method, perhaps because they view that as degrading what they do, even if it does not actually do so.

I think there's also an element of what I refer to in management training as "must be best or is awful". This is where there's some arguably objective "best", and the assumption becomes that anything less is simply unworthy, regardless of how good it is. This comes up a lot in the competition training discussion. It can be reasonably argued that training with outside competition provides an advantage over identical training without it. (There is an argument to the contrary, which is valid, but carries less weight.) Now, I've seen arguments become entirely binary about this, wherein it is apparently argued that training without competition is inherently weak. Note that I didn't say "weaker", which would be a defensible position. To me, this binary approach would be like discovering that a specific type of bicep curl is more effective than other types, then arguing that all other types are crap, even though they produce reasonable results. It also misses the issue of fitness of approach (not everyone is interested in training at the level required to compete, nor take the physical punishment inherent in some competition). This is similar to the "MMA or TMA" debate, in that it often includes people saying one is "right" and the other is "wrong", without recognizing gradations between those points.

AKA the Fallacy of the Excluded Middle.

Arguing about which art or training method is "best" doesn't interest me that much. I have my opinions about what sort of training methods are more effective for which end purposes, but in the end:

1. Every training method is flawed in some way (at least until we develop holodeck and Matrix technology)
2. Different training methods are flawed in different ways, so it is useful to use various complementary forms of training to compensate for those flaws
3. Even most "inferior" forms of training can have some value if properly understood and applied

In addition to my current primary arts, I have trained, currently train, and will train other systems which (to my eyes) have some significant weaknesses in their training methods or curriculum. I do this because I also see some significant strengths. I'd rather spend my time mining for the gold than complaining about the dross.

 

[Steve]

AKA the Fallacy of the Excluded Middle.

Arguing about which art or training method is "best" doesn't interest me that much. I have my opinions about what sort of training methods are more effective for which end purposes, but in the end:

1. Every training method is flawed in some way (at least until we develop holodeck and Matrix technology)
2. Different training methods are flawed in different ways, so it is useful to use various complementary forms of training to compensate for those flaws
3. Even most "inferior" forms of training can have some value if properly understood and applied

In addition to my current primary arts, I have trained, currently train, and will train other systems which (to my eyes) have some significant weaknesses in their training methods or curriculum. I do this because I also see some significant strengths. I'd rather spend my time mining for the gold than complaining about the dross.

I appreciate your points about every training method having flaws. This is so true, and why training can only get you so far. In order for any training (in anything) to be effective, you have to be working toward something you will actually do for real. It doesn't matter whether a person trains for 2 months or 20 years, if they don't apply their training, they will only get so far.

 

[Tez3]

and the next obvious remark... karate sparring doesn't look like kick boxing, kickboxing actually looks like karate sparring as it should as that's where it came from.

 

[Kong Soo Do]

To put it simply, the methodologies and goals are different. Some have not wished to accept this and believe that one size fits all. When that is pointed out, well, some tend to flip out rather than have a rational conversation on the methodologies, focus and goals of a particular type of training.

 

[wingchun100]

I hear about TMA being not effective...a LOT...since I practice Wing Chun, and in every MMA fight video on YouTube where one guy is said to represent Wing Chun, the dude usually gets his face pounded.

I cannot explain why most people who enter MMA tournaments with Wing Chun get demolished. All I know is I've had a couple occasions where I had to use some of the skills I've learned in real settings. They did not escalate into full-blown fights because what I used was enough to deter my would-be adversaries. So since I know first-hand it can function, I just ignore the keyboard commandos.