Why the hate between TMA and MMA?

[Gerry Seymour]

You should base your self defence on what you can do in training.

I don't understand how you think that's not what I do.

For all seriousness. You dont go train an arm bar. Suck royaly at it and so come to the conclusion that the arm bar works anyway. Because criminals al have skinny wrists or something.

This is not good self defence.

Good self defence is a bunch of techniques that you are most likley to pull off not ones you are not likley to pull off unless unless.

And none of that is contrary to what I've said.

 

[FriedRice]

I've been looking through forums and am seeing so much hate between TMA and MMA / Kickboxing / BJJ, I've also experienced this from people I've met.

My question is, where does all the hate come from? I've trained in different TMA's and also in K1-Kickboxing and I just don't get why anyone would have a reason to hate one or the other so much.

What I mainly hear, from both sides, is that they're ineffective, don't work in a real fight and that everyone who participates are egotistical.

Probably not hate, but just not the free respect that the TMA'ists used to get when they say they're a Black Belt in whatever, like it often was in the Pre-UFC days. People saw what happened in UFC 1-4 and even 5-15 or so....then it started to filter down to BJJ + Muay Thai, or die.

 

[drop bear]

I don't understand how you think that's not what I do.


And none of that is contrary to what I've said.

You think?

You are by definition training to fight a trained guy. Sort of.

Because you are training with guys who are training. There is going to be an arms race.

When we look at the UFC and the really trained guys. They are doing martial arts basics. Because they win you fights. Arm bars that rely on gross mistakes really don't.



When i repeatedly mentioned defenses to double leg take down as being
Overhook.
Sprawl.
Crossface.

This is because it is the first thing you will learn in a grappling class
It is also the defence Demetrius Johnson used to win his last UFC fight.

Beginners to experts same move.

Now I could train rubbish downward elbow on the chance that in self defence someone will throw rubbish double legs. But why would i?

 

[FriedRice]

Mike Tyson shadowboxing:

Look familiar?

This is just sports fighting. I bet some too deadly for sport SD guy can just walk up and stomp him in the nuts to death while he's having his water break.

 

[Steve]

Well, I don't want to get in the way of all this fun. I just want to point out that training cops with guns and all the accoutrement that cops haul around with them isn't the same as training non-cops for self defense.

And while Mma types get water breaks, cops run on dunkin, sooo....

 

[Ironbear24]

Probably not hate, but just not the free respect that the TMA'ists used to get when they say they're a Black Belt in whatever, like it often was in the Pre-UFC days. People saw what happened in UFC 1-4 and even 5-15 or so....then it started to filter down to BJJ + Muay Thai, or die.

Yet many succeed without neither. I look at like this. Are you training like an MMA fighter ? If the answer is no, they you will never be one.

Are you training to be a kick boxer? A karateka? A Judoka? If yes then you will be those, if not then you won't. If you wish to be a good martial artist then train like one, same concept.

 

[Sami Ibrahim]

As a practitioner of traditional martial arts I can honestly say that most MMA and sport-based folks train harder than me, condition better than me and use higher percentage moves than me. If I was to step into the cage or octagon or competition mat with them and try to beat them in a fair fight, I would likely be tied into a pretzel or maybe even knocked out, even if I tried to cheat, break their rules and do things like break fingers, gouge eyes, crush testicles which many of them train to avoid, if the guy or girls fighting attributes are far superior to mine I am likely going to lose in the end. What I do is the best I can do with what I have. Every violent situation I have ever survived as a Soldier and civilian has been primarily luck, the element of surprise, one second someone is running at you with a knife and all they see is prey the next instant they are being swung into an oncoming vehicle, not for any reason other than just luck, who plans for a vehicle to be conveniently passing by as they are attacked by someone with a knife. My training is not the best, its not the bottom line, final say or ultimate in self-defense but it is adequate.

That being said I also am not the spokesman or ultimate embodiment of my martial path, so my opinion and the results of my violent encounters don't represent the totality of the practitioners and instructors of my traditional method, if I die I don't shame the warrior ancestors that passed down their experiences to the next generation, it simply means I alone die just as I alone fight and I alone put forth the amount of effort in training. People point to someone other than themselves and as if someone else achievements in the ring or on the battlefield are vicariously transferred to them by virtue of claiming to study and train in the same method. Sorry that is not how it works, if you study western boxing, Mike Tyson is not your avatar, if your a BJJ practitioner the Gracie family is not your avatar, if you study Kenjutsu Musashi is not your avatar in fact most of them would see the people claiming to train as they do and shake their head in disgust at the horrible imitation lol.

 

[RTKDCMB]

Which is saying that all you need for self defense is kata

kata is designed for Self Defense.

These two statements are not equivalent.

You also like to play this bizarre semantic game where somehow when two people are in a ring they're fighting, but if you get tackled in the street by some sociopath and you have to defend yourself, its not fighting.

There is a distinct difference. One is consensual for both parties, the other is not.

That's too bad for them, since I don't hate traditional styles.

Just like I don't hate classic cars and antique weaponry.

However if you tell me that a Model-T can perform as well as a Nissan GTR, or that a flintlock musket is equal to an AK-47, then I think you're full of crap.

And this is a false equivalency.

 

[RTKDCMB]

Perhaps people who use flintlocks shouldn't attempt to argue that their weapons are as good, if not better than modern ones.

A flintlock pointed at your head and fired will kill you just the same.

 

[Mou Meng Gung Fu]

MMA training can be applied to SD so easily though. I don't really understand the argument. I practice a non-classical martial art which has both TCMA elements and MMA elements. My system has solo forms, 2-man set drills, shadow boxing drills, and sparring exercises. I include all of these things in my personal training and don't leave anything out, because all of them serve a specific purpose. To say that one way is better than another just sounds kind of crazy to me. I have a lot of friends in the MMA and although most of them are bull-headed, I don't think there's really any hate between TMA and MMA and in fact, most of the MMA practitioners I've met have a TMA background that they are passionate about, whether it be Judo, or Karate, or Taekwondo, or Kung Fu, or Muay Thai, or Boxing, or whatever. Most of the MMA fighters I know (the really good ones anyway) had a foundation in some prior TMA system before MMA training. None of them have ever expressed any hatred or bias towards TMA training. At least not to me. I think the argument actually comes from a misunderstanding between martial artists who haven't transcended yet. I think those who have given up the notion of thinking this way are on the path to becoming great martial artists. They know why we practice solo forms, and why we practice them very slowly. They know why we practice 2-man drills, and why we practice them with repetitive motions. They know why we practice shadow boxing, and why we practice it very quickly. They know why we practice sparring, and why we practice it with contact and resistance. There is a very specific purpose and reason why we practice everything. No way is better than any other way. It's like trying to compare fruits to vegetables. At least that's one point of view. That being said, if you give a MMA fighter a knife, baton or a gun, what do you have? You have a trained fighter who is now armed with a weapon. Put the same fighter in a NHB environment and what do you have? You now have someone who practices both MMA and TMA tactics. Who wins then? NHB wins, in my opinion.

 

[RTKDCMB]

So you don't shadow box then? Or don't do drills in the air. Your coach doesn't call out combinations for you to use in shadow boxing? Because that's exactly the same as kata

They are not exactly the same. Kata is a lot more technical.

 

[RTKDCMB]

People will lie to protect themselves and their beliefs

Yeah because YOU never do that right?

 

[Hanzou]

The answer you want to hear.

Because MMA is just hands down better than all TMA. Wear tap out shirts with pride and make sure to not miss the Joe Rogan podcasts.

That isn't the answer I want to hear.

I guess you weren't paying attention.

 

[Hanzou]

Yeah because YOU never do that right?

I never said I didn't.

Which is why I tend to not use anecdotal evidence in an argument/debate.

 

[Hanzou]

Because those styles don't normally aim to deliver training to someone who wants to train 10-30 hours per week, develop their highest fitness, and train against the highest level of skill. The martial athletes typically seek the best training ground for their goal.

You bring up an interesting point though, because in my experience, Boxing, Judo and Bjj were a lot more physically demanding than Karate, TKD, and TSD.

The second paragraph is an entirely different issue, and I agree that - in the least - some folks are mis-stating the competitive background of their art. I do think Karate wasn't actually designed for competition. Competition became a major part of the training (perhaps always was - I'm no historian), but it was always competition within a certain set of limits. I'm not sure some of that competition wasn't counter-productive (soft point fighting) if the objective was self-defense fighting ability. Of course, that's not everyone's goal, so maybe those types of competition just fit those folks. I don't have a problem with an art not being a good match for inter-art competition, so long as it does what it should (whatever that expectation is, which probably varies by school and again by student).

There are records of ancient Kung Fu and Karate tournaments. I'll look into them when I have some time.

 

[RTKDCMB]

Which is why I tend to not use anecdotal evidence in an argument/debate.

You have talked countless times on this forum about your experience in the martial arts but no one on here has ever seen you physically do any martial arts training, demonstrate any techniques or seen footage of you competing in competitions or fighting in the street, Seems like anecdotal evidence to me.

 

[Headhunter]

MMA training can be applied to SD so easily though. I don't really understand the argument. I practice a non-classical martial art which has both TCMA elements and MMA elements. My system has solo forms, 2-man set drills, shadow boxing drills, and sparring exercises. I include all of these things in my personal training and don't leave anything out, because all of them serve a specific purpose. To say that one way is better than another just sounds kind of crazy to me. I have a lot of friends in the MMA and although most of them are bull-headed, I don't think there's really any hate between TMA and MMA and in fact, most of the MMA practitioners I've met have a TMA background that they are passionate about, whether it be Judo, or Karate, or Taekwondo, or Kung Fu, or Muay Thai, or Boxing, or whatever. Most of the MMA fighters I know (the really good ones anyway) had a foundation in some prior TMA system before MMA training. None of them have ever expressed any hatred or bias towards TMA training. At least not to me. I think the argument actually comes from a misunderstanding between martial artists who haven't transcended yet. I think those who have given up the notion of thinking this way are on the path to becoming great martial artists. They know why we practice solo forms, and why we practice them very slowly. They know why we practice 2-man drills, and why we practice them with repetitive motions. They know why we practice shadow boxing, and why we practice it very quickly. They know why we practice sparring, and why we practice it with contact and resistance. There is a very specific purpose and reason why we practice everything. No way is better than any other way. It's like trying to compare fruits to vegetables. At least that's one point of view. That being said, if you give a MMA fighter a knife, baton or a gun, what do you have? You have a trained fighter who is now armed with a weapon. Put the same fighter in a NHB environment and what do you have? You now have someone who practices both MMA and TMA tactics. Who wins then? NHB wins, in my opinion.

Mma friends who are all bull headed? Sounds like you're just promoting a stereotype there. Every mma guy I know is respectful and humble

 

[RTKDCMB]

Mma friends who are all bull headed? Sounds like you're just promoting a stereotype there. Every mma guy I know is respectful and humble

Sounds more like he is promoting a limited and biased data set.

 

[Mou Meng Gung Fu]

Mma friends who are all bull headed? Sounds like you're just promoting a stereotype there. Every mma guy I know is respectful and humble

I was refering specifically to the MMA fighters I know personally, not to MMA fighters in general. And yes, even though my MMA friends are bull-headed, they are still very respectful and humble. By "bull-headed," what I mean is that most of them are respectful of other ways, but are unwilling or just uninterested in trying them. Whereas me, I'll try anything, even if I don't like it. Sorry for the misinterpretation. Hope it's clarified.

 

[Ironbear24]

Mma friends who are all bull headed? Sounds like you're just promoting a stereotype there. Every mma guy I know is respectful and humble

You mustn't know very many. I met assholes in many styles.