Phil Elmore
Master of Arts
I would also like to know how old Shadow Hunter is, what his martial arts background is, and from what he derives the "decades of experience" to which he referred.
C
clapping_tiger
Guest
Could you please explain then how I misread your post. There is obviously a miscommunication happening here. It seemed to me that you were saying that you would take a shot to give a shot, and you are willing to take a knife wound to inflict your own wound on the attacker. If you are stating that in todays society that "if" you are attacked with a knife, the attacker is just out to kill and not for honor or for a fair fight. If this is the case, I think 95% of the serious martial arts community already knows this and would agree with you that times have changed. As far as unrealistic disarms go, yes some of them are hokey, but some of them teach you the base skills for disarming someone in a perfect situation. After a person gets those perfect situations down it is time to add more realism.
Is that more along the lines of what you are trying to say? If not please explain.
I agree, I have been hit with the stuff voluntarily, and we were given a task to complete after the spray hit. We had to aggressively grab the attacker, knee him twice, bring him down to the ground, then back up and call 911 on a cell (dead cell phone so the call did not go through) and give the address of the situation, and what happened. After all that was completed that is when the real pain hit, once you no longer had a purpose to focus on. the same would hold true to an aggressive assailant who wanted you bad enough, just watch COPS. How many people don't go down right away when hit.
I agree here too. I have my wife carry OC Spray with her. But I gave her some pointers on how to use it effectively, like when you spray it, don't sit in one spot. Even a blind attacker can come in on where you last were. OC spray does hurt and it will stop the average low life. and slow down and impare the aggressive one. Unless they are not effected by pepper.
Ok you think you have a conscious, I can handle this answer.
Nope, not ALWAYS. I'll find the post later and quote.
In My Experience in the class room, It is real easy to get Dead.
In the Real Life Street it is real easy to get Dead. I still do not see
you point or approach?
BTW: Are you selling something?
Yes Really!
How Many real life experiences have you had? You state decades. You state that in your experience it is easy to get dead. Ok, give me some of your experience.
NOTE: A person can learn a whole lot on the streets in a short few years or even months. So, I find the claim of decades, just that a Claim to prove you are right with out giving and real data that has any validity.
Yada Yada, Wolf, Wolf, Buck Buck, Buck, I asked you to look into the mirror, and I see you have, but only your sub-conscious has realized it. You state it is easier to discredit, which is what you have done here to start with.
I do not think like a Knife Fighter. I do not think like a grappler. I do not think like a Stick Fighter. As soon as you put a description to something you limit it. Just because you have to live in your poor-defined little world, do not draw me into it. I think like I Think. And the last Time I checked you were not one of the voices in my head. So, please as you pointed out to not assume things about me you do not know, nor have I stated explicitly.
The Admins, and Moderators are allowed to express their opinions, as long as they follow the rules. If not they get a warning or time off AKA suspension and if necessary even banned. Yet I am not going to allow some little minded child to step into this forum and make it a free for all and then claim they have been abused when people reply with their own opinions.
Now, to the whole point to my first post and this rebuttal.
You immediately assumed an aggressive point on my part, and assumed I was attacking you by the choice of my words. You did not like what I had to say and you felt you had to reply, and not just ignore my post. Once again, look into that mirror and see if you really are what you think you are? Or are you just a hypocrite, who does not like the same tactics applied to him.
Treat me and the fellow members of this board friendly, and you will be treated friendly. If not then expect some replies.
Think about it. If you attack first, then no on will listen to you.
Have a Nice Day
C
clapping_tiger
Guest
Chung Moo Doe?
R
redfive
Guest
Chung Moo Quan, is what they called it when I started it for a very wierd six months. " master John C. Kim". What a mess. Any way, alot of people seem to miss the empy hand training of the FMAs. Remy always tought and talked about the translation, or making the connection. This was from stick to bolo to knive and then making the connection of all the same techniques to empty hands. A knife fighter may need a knife to be effective, and a stick fighter may need his sticks to be effective. A true FMA person can be just as good empty handed as with the weapons. As stated in earlier post, in a real streat fight or attack, its usualy from an ambush. So you do have to gain time and space to get to your weapons. That of course involves empty hands or hand to weapon combat. This is not a new concept. this techniques have been around for 1000s of years. There are no new secret techniques. And this is true for attacking someone with a knife. there are no new techniques that can be told on this forum, that someone else has not heard of. So I'm sorry Shadow Hunter, but there are other people that know about and are doing the same combat knife techniques that you are doing, or are thinking about. And you say that in your experience that you have never met a FMA that you could not beet with your knife and him being empty handed. Well your not looking very hard I guess. I'v only been in the combative arts for 17 years, not decades but I have meet several FMA masters that would shove your knive up your *** and pull it out your throat, with out a second thought. And it would be done in a matter of seconds. Ernesto Presas is the first name that comes to mind, Dong Cuesta, Remy, Angel Cabales,Leo Giron, Felicisimo Dezon and the list can go on. Of course some listed have past on, some many years ago. But with decades of experience, you would have had ample time to have met them. There are several members on this board, that I would put money on, as far as dealing with a knife and being empty handed. So as far as the FMAs go, I would not make such wide blanket statements or assumptions. I would also state that there are many great knife fighters that are not FMA based. All systems, in there purity, have delt with empty hands against a knife.
Your friend in the Combative Arts, Redfive.
Your friend in the Combative Arts, Redfive.
I assume you are referring to body-assist techniques. For those who don't know them, imagine using one or both hands to hold the butt end of the knife against your belly while the blade sticks straight out, then slamming forward into your opponent as if you wanted to tackle or bear hug them. (Of course, there are better approaches than this simple-minded one--I'm trying to give a visual image for those unfamiliar with the idea.) They're common in the FMA. They're extremely hard to defend against if the person starts close to you or has control of you by say holding an arm while bracing the knife against his body in his other hand.
Col. Fairbairn said that there is no way for the unarmed man to defend against the knife. If you know an art that reliably provides for empty-hand defense against the sort of surprise attack by a determined knifer that you describe, Id' sure like to know what it is.
Col. Fairbairn said that there is no way for the unarmed man to defend against the knife. If you know an art that reliably provides for empty-hand defense against the sort of surprise attack by a determined knifer that you describe, Id' sure like to know what it is.
K
kenpo2dabone
Guest
That is an extremely good question and I bet you will get several posts from people saying that their combative art works reliably against a would be attacker.
This includes me!
but I will do my best to back it up here with words. Unfortunately it is very hard to prove ones claims in writing so take this for what you feel it is worth. I am an American Kenpo Practioner with the Universal Kenpo Federation. The Federation is headed by Michael Robert Pick. I have never seen an individual move the way he does with a knife in his hand. Not to mention the way he moves empty handed. It is simply amazing and when he hits you all I have to say is you will be a believer. Getting back to the knife though. He is an Instructor for more than 2400 (I will have to conform this number) special forces troops in open handed and knife combat. Here is a quote from my instructor about him,
"I have personally witnessed him taking on qualified grapplers and FMA practitioners both empty handed and with the knife and taking each to the kill. His dominance was complete. In my opinion his skill with the knife is unequaled in the Kenpo world and is acknowledged world wide for his knife skills by those that train in the upper echelons of combat. His skill with the gun is par excellence, rendering a perfect 268 points out of 268 to become a qualified combat shooting instructor for Special Forces".
The last sentence of this quote indicates that he will also be instructing troops in combat shooting as well. Sorry this is starting to sound like a sales pich for the UKF and I don't mean for it to. I just wanted to give you some back round of where my knowledge is coming from.
Our basic principle of dealing with the knife is do deal with the true weapon. The knife is merely the tool used to do the damage. It is the body holding the knife that is the weapon. Take out the body and the tool is no longer dangerous. I know, I know, easier said than done. If there are practiioners in the bay area who wish to play with some of this stuff feel free to contact me through my profile. I love working with people from other martial backrounds regardless of what it is. Please don't take this as some sort of macho challenge because it is the furthest thing from it. It is an honest attempt at seeing what other people do versus what I do. if you convert to what I do that is your own decision... sorry bad attempt at some humor.
Salute,
Mike Miller UKF
OP
OP
Shadow Hunter
Guest
Let me tell you about my first experience with someone who considered themselves a knife fighter.
Back when Carter was president there was a series of rapes and robberies in the community I was in. The perp's MO would be to run after someone in a parking lot while waving something like a wallet in his left hand. He would yell, "you dropped this!"
As soon as he got close enough he would drop the wallet and grab the victim by the neck. He would pull them in while bringing a knife he had concealed in his right hand into their stomach. The rape or robbery would start from there.
The local aikido dojo I was an junior instructor at had a campus police officer as a student and he let us know the details of the attacks. Some of us decided to see what we could do in that situation. We were at a disadvantage, but we did have some victories in training. A typical move would be to grab the knife hand with our left hand and shove the guy's chin up and back with our right far enough that we had the room to do things like ikkyo.
We invited a guy who was teaching Kali out of his garage to our second session. He would not participate at all. He said the scenario was "unrealistic." AFAIK, he did not know any grappling, throws or joint locks. He made fun of us by saying that if we tried to grab him like the attacker was doing he would cut us.
Since then I have run across many other who have had the same attitude. Not all people that study knife arts act like he did, but the more they identify themselves as knife fighters the less likely they seem to be willing to accept any other reality. I know people who study kali as part of JKD and they do not have that attitude, but the guys who make the most noise about their knife skills all seem to have the same attitude as that first guy. They think they will always have their knives, never be caught off guard and never have to deal with an attack that wouldn't work against an armed opponent.
That is my experience. Anyone care to say that they have never run into that being a pretty common mind- set among people who think of themselves as macho knife fighters?
Back when Carter was president there was a series of rapes and robberies in the community I was in. The perp's MO would be to run after someone in a parking lot while waving something like a wallet in his left hand. He would yell, "you dropped this!"
As soon as he got close enough he would drop the wallet and grab the victim by the neck. He would pull them in while bringing a knife he had concealed in his right hand into their stomach. The rape or robbery would start from there.
The local aikido dojo I was an junior instructor at had a campus police officer as a student and he let us know the details of the attacks. Some of us decided to see what we could do in that situation. We were at a disadvantage, but we did have some victories in training. A typical move would be to grab the knife hand with our left hand and shove the guy's chin up and back with our right far enough that we had the room to do things like ikkyo.
We invited a guy who was teaching Kali out of his garage to our second session. He would not participate at all. He said the scenario was "unrealistic." AFAIK, he did not know any grappling, throws or joint locks. He made fun of us by saying that if we tried to grab him like the attacker was doing he would cut us.
Since then I have run across many other who have had the same attitude. Not all people that study knife arts act like he did, but the more they identify themselves as knife fighters the less likely they seem to be willing to accept any other reality. I know people who study kali as part of JKD and they do not have that attitude, but the guys who make the most noise about their knife skills all seem to have the same attitude as that first guy. They think they will always have their knives, never be caught off guard and never have to deal with an attack that wouldn't work against an armed opponent.
That is my experience. Anyone care to say that they have never run into that being a pretty common mind- set among people who think of themselves as macho knife fighters?
Thank You for at least attempting to communicate with us.
I remember Carter.
I also remember, backing away from people I do not know. I also remember not giving myself to other people by giving them range. I always tried to give myself room to move or run. These people are just like most people in the USA today. They go around in a state of total trust. Occasionally they should move over to paying attention and reading the situation to access danger or harm. To me this is one of the most important aspects of self defense.
This Last Quote, I could apply to "Fill inte the MA" here.
I know Kenpo Guys that beleive they are untouchable empty hands.
I know Arnis Guys who believe they are untouchable with a stick.
I know Judo/Ju-Jitsu/MMA practitioners that believe they are untouchable on the grourd.
I even know point fighter for tournaments who believe they would be untouchable in a street fight.
So, unless you went and serched out a lot of those MASTER's who use the knife in the decades of your training, then I would and still say that your experiences are limited. Years does not equate to knowledge or wisdom, unfortunately. You must be productive during those years.
I am not trying to be a jerk here on purpose. You made a lot of bold statements and claims. And then gave as your back up and proof you experience and years of knowledge. I want to hear more. Tell me how you searched out more instruction in knife. Or was it just about once every other year you ran across a guy in the bar or at a tournament who was running his big mouth?
Still trying to understand what your point is, and why it is unique to knife fighting.
OP
OP
Shadow Hunter
Guest
The last time was after I had flown home from the Czech republic. I obviously did not carry weapons on the flight and I did not get them out of my bags after arriving at the airport. It was stupid and forgetfull. About as stupid and forgetfull as walking into a room and not being able to remember why you are there. And if anyone can pass a polygraph saying they have never stood in a room with a stupid look on their face as they try to remember why they walked in, I will accept their premis that they never have to train for times they do not have weapons on them.
On the way back from the airport I stopped off at a supermarket. In the parking lot a van stops right in front of me and two guys jump out screaming something about me cutting them off. Bad situation.
My response was not the standard one. I started singing "close to you" while taking off my clothes. Yes it sounds strange, but I was dealing with massive jet lag and stress at that point. The two guys backed off about the time I got my shirt off and were in their van and starting to drive off by the time I started pulling my underwear off. I stood there as they drove away, looked around at the crowd that had gathered to watch and bowed before putting on my stuff and driving home.
Phil Elmore
Master of Arts
Okay, these posts are becoming less and less believable with each one.
C
clapping_tiger
Guest
OOOKayyyyyy...............:shrug:
I am starting to think this whole thing is a joke.
R
Richard S.
Guest
OH NO! please dont bust him now, this thread has provided more sheer entertainment than anything i have read in a while.
bujuts
Green Belt
In response to your comments
"I know how to kill the typical guy who calls himself a knife fighter. If he is unarmed and I have a knife then I will be able to take advantage of his conventional thinking and stick him repeatedly while only taking some minor damage in return....And more used you are to knife fighting, the more vulnerable you are to the techniques."
All I can say is that I think more investigation on your part is in order. Although I'm sure you're familiar with both empty hand and knives, there are systems that deal with empty hands no different than they deal with knives as an offensive tool. In my system, a weapon is a weapon is a weapon (guns or other projectiles not withstanding in this case), and the objective (at least, as I've learned), is to establish control of the enemy, and to prevent any further deployment of these weapons.
The final culimination of my particular empty handed system is the knife. Everything in regards to applications of power, physical domination of the enemy, and control do not change when the student gets a knife in their hands.
Cheers,
Steven Brown
Universal Kenpo Federation
www.ukfkenpo.com
"I know how to kill the typical guy who calls himself a knife fighter. If he is unarmed and I have a knife then I will be able to take advantage of his conventional thinking and stick him repeatedly while only taking some minor damage in return....And more used you are to knife fighting, the more vulnerable you are to the techniques."
All I can say is that I think more investigation on your part is in order. Although I'm sure you're familiar with both empty hand and knives, there are systems that deal with empty hands no different than they deal with knives as an offensive tool. In my system, a weapon is a weapon is a weapon (guns or other projectiles not withstanding in this case), and the objective (at least, as I've learned), is to establish control of the enemy, and to prevent any further deployment of these weapons.
The final culimination of my particular empty handed system is the knife. Everything in regards to applications of power, physical domination of the enemy, and control do not change when the student gets a knife in their hands.
Cheers,
Steven Brown
Universal Kenpo Federation
www.ukfkenpo.com
S
Scooter
Guest
Check out some of his "conversations" on other threads on this site...never states his name, age, what he's trained in or rank....just likes to argue and tell everyone how "right" he is.
Cruentus
Grandmaster
You better be careful!
This guy is a true shadow hunter.....he knows more then any of us can dream....and he wears no real name, or age, or background.....So he can disappear into the "shadows." Have you ever seen the Movie "Glimmer Man" with Steven Segal......we have our real Glimmer Man right here on martial talk! I have realized that all my FMA, Burmese MA, and combative knife training is completely useless against a shadow hunter. I have already sheathed by blades and hung up my sticks...I am finished.
Remember....You can't hide IN THE SHADOWS from a SHADOW HUNTER!
PAUL
P.S. What a geek. :feedtroll
This guy is a true shadow hunter.....he knows more then any of us can dream....and he wears no real name, or age, or background.....So he can disappear into the "shadows." Have you ever seen the Movie "Glimmer Man" with Steven Segal......we have our real Glimmer Man right here on martial talk! I have realized that all my FMA, Burmese MA, and combative knife training is completely useless against a shadow hunter. I have already sheathed by blades and hung up my sticks...I am finished.
Remember....You can't hide IN THE SHADOWS from a SHADOW HUNTER!
PAUL
P.S. What a geek. :feedtroll
Phil Elmore
Master of Arts
Something tells me he's run off.
LOL
