Knife Dueling

[BoxANT]

i feel we're all pretty much on the same wave-length :asian:

in the end (imho) just train to better yourself and the people around you. and remember, we do this stuff so that if things get bad, we have a better chance of coming home to our loved ones.

survival is what it's all about.

 

[Knarfan]

There are a lot of nice posts, and good arguements on this thread.

I kind of agree with both points of view. I see that there is value in training knife dueling. dueling training and working live with a partner is a great way to help you build better skills. Maneuvering, timing, technique, and so forth.

However, just doing drills and live sparring isn't enough to get a complete self-defense picture. I think that you should back up your martial arts training with some things on the tactical side. Scenario training, awareness training, and some academic study on pre and post incident strategies for example. This will help you build a complete self-defense picture. This stuff, btw, is also independent of your "art," usually.

There are many knife dueling arts (Sayoc Kali being one of these) that are great arts and will help build you into a better combatant and martial artist. However, there is other due diligance that one must do outside of the art to get a complete self defense picture.

Paul

Paul,
You bring up some very important points . Tactical training & academic study is a must . Also your comment about it being independent of your art important to understand . You really shouldent put all of your eggs in one basket . No matter how good you think it is . Just like the concept of cross training has helped to improve MA in general . You really need to see the whole picture through alot of peoples eyes . You will learn so much more . From what I'v seen the people who teach tactical based systems have spent countless hours to educate themselves . Everyone should try & take advantage . For alot of people who don't have alot of time to put into learning a specific art , tactical & scenario training would be a great choice on it's own . Not to compare , but being mentally prepared in a reality based sense is probably more important . You have to learn how to survive under stress . Like you said , what you don't know can hurt you . From what I'v read in your post & seen on your website you have an awsome program . Thanks for all of your responses . I'v learned alot

. Also , thanks to all the other posties on this thread . Everyone has something special to offer .

Much respects
Frank

 

[[email protected]]

Hello Guys,

I have been lurking and watching the thread continue to grow with great viewpoints all around.

As for a "dueling" art, most if not all practice that occurs in one way or another in martial arts training is a "duel". Meaning a cooperative engagement of two or more fighters to enhance their training. Grappling, kickboxing, FMA, push hands..all contain aspects of the "dueling" mentality. Taking Sayoc Kali as an example, a Transition Drill is allowing the one for one motion against an partner to enhance certain responses. Attribute development continues in various other ways including physical training(conditioning), application/scenario based drills, medical management,legalities, ....this list goes on and on.

I truely believe that anyone who wants to stand toe to toe and duel it out, with an opponent is foolish. But in training, martial arts practitioners need some reasonably "safe" manner to enhance their physical/mental skills to be able to survive a real world encounter. Most if not all arts practice some type of "dueling" to get there.

Gumagalang
Guro Steve L.

www.Bujinkandojo.net

 

[Dwight McLemore]

Steve: This is probably one of the best answers to a complex question and matter of training focus. Personally, one had best be learning how to do the 'dueling' bit along with close quarter and ground fighting. Best make them all part of the training regiment to have a complete arsenal of skills that you can pull out under any circumstances. I think it is about balanced training not 'this or that' being the ultimate method.

Best
Dwight

 

[arnisador]

I agree. You take some enhanced understanding of the weapon from each of these types of training. Knife dueling teaches me about its speed and deadliness: That is, even if we're equally armed, I still get hit far too often for comfort. The techniques may not be directly applied, but the idea influences what I do with and against teh weapon in other circumstances.

 

[47MartialMan]

Hey everybody, can someone explain what is knife dueling and why is it so bad? I saw someone say that most knife arts are dueling and that it is bad.It was also mentioned that prison knife fighting is more effective.I worked in a prison long enough to see people die from stab wounds and I can tell you prison knife fighting is not self defense based or is it something that a civillian will ever experience.One person distracts you and another stabs you in the kidneys from behind.This is a fact, I have seen it many times.On the other hand in the street mostley my experiences in NYC,someone will pull out a knife at around 4 feet from you and either demand money or threaten to cut you for looking at their girl ect.If you have a knife you have to pull it out quickley while the person either backs up or rushes in.This will resemble classroom knife sparring to a degree which I assume is considered dueling.If you are not sneeking up on someone to slit their throat, isnt any confrontation when you are face to face with a knife on knife situation a duel? Barry www.combatartsusa.com

Nice post/thread.
In accordance with Marc MacYoung, I have been a member of their private/invitational chats, long before coming here. Their chats are email based. In other words, replies/posts are exchanged via email.

Where I am from, guns are the likely encounter. Criminals do not want to get too close or risk failure of their attempt.

 

[[email protected]]

Hello Dwight,

Thanks for the reply and I agree 100%! By the way great material you have on the Bowie and Tomahawk!

47martialman:

Guns are a big possibility all the time. Where I live, crime is low and permit carry is high. Where I work in Boston, just the opposite! If you are about to start carrying I highly recommend several practical/tactical pistol courses followed by consistent time on the range, practicing the basic draws from concealment, accuracy, short range pistol work etc. Also learn work retention drills, ground work, shooting from cover etc. into the mix!

Gumagalang
Steve L.

www.Bujinkandojo.net

 

[Bigshadow]

If you are about to start carrying I highly recommend several practical/tactical pistol courses followed by consistent time on the range, practicing the basic draws from concealment, accuracy, short range pistol work etc. Also learn work retention drills, ground work, shooting from cover etc. into the mix!

From time to time, we practice like that with practice handguns and of course knives. I have been reading this thread and I think there has been good discussion on this, although due to my training, dealing with the knife wielding attacker is pretty much the same as dealing with a bat wielding attacker or any attacker for that matter.

Also, as someone pointed out before, the knife drills are good, because it teaches you how to move your body, that is a very good point. I think that is a crucial part of this discussion. You have to move!

 

[47MartialMan]

Guns are a big possibility all the time. Where I live, crime is low and permit carry is high. Where I work in Boston, just the opposite! If you are about to start carrying I highly recommend several practical/tactical pistol courses followed by consistent time on the range, practicing the basic draws from concealment, accuracy, short range pistol work etc. Also learn work retention drills, ground work, shooting from cover etc. into the mix!

Gumagalang
Steve L.

www.Bujinkandojo.net

Ah yes, I agree. Learn what you can to get the "drop"

 

[arnisador]

http://www.alibi.com/editorial/section_display.php?di=2005-10-06&scn=news&scn_page_num=0#12892

Dateline: Michigan—Two cousins from Mount Clemens now stand charged under an obscure 1846 law prohibiting “dueling.” The two unnamed men apparently got into a mutual knife fight last Monday afternoon outside their home. One of the two suffered a stab wound. The injured man, who is 19 years old and recovering from non-life threatening injuries at Mount Clemens General Hospital, is not cooperating with sheriff's investigators. The uninjured 31-year-old man fled on foot and was still at large later that week. According to the sheriff's office, the older suspect is also wanted on a prior drug conviction. According to Sheriff Mark Hackel, the two men, who reside in the same home with other relatives, disagreed over a $30 debt. Wielding a knife, the older cousin confronted the younger cousin, who pulled out his own knife and accepted the challenge. “I've heard there are dueling statutes,” local attorney Steven Rabout told the Macomb Daily. “But I've never been curious enough to look them up.” According to the anti-dueling law, “Any person who shall engage in a duel with any deadly weapons, although no homicide ensue, or who shall challenge another to fight such a duel, or shall send or deliver any written or verbal message, purporting or intending to be such a challenge, although no duel ensue, shall be guilty of a felony.” In addition to carrying a maximum penalty of $5,000, the law states that anyone convicted of dueling “shall also be incapable of holding or of being elected or appointed to any place of honor, profit or trust, under the constitution or laws of the state.”

 

[Solidman82]

That's very interesting, I wonder what the laws are in Canada.


I find all this talk of dueling interesting though I even read the term "knifeplay" which almost takes away from the purpose of knives if you ask me. My SiFu/Guro once said "There is no such thing as a knife fight, more like knife kill" That kind of stuck in my head.

 

[Dark]

Knife dueling got it's start with common men fighting duels. Swords and later firearms weren't acessible to the less then weathy. Now that said there are allot of groups the gypsies for example, who perfected knife fighting and even maintained "long knives" which were basically similar to short swords 16 to 24 inches in blade length. There were several dueling and fighting style which developed from those groups.

Muggings are usually one person distracts and the stabs or cut and then runs away with your wallet or purse. Allot of these people learned to fight in prison or from someone who has been there. Most violent offenders are repeat offenders. A criminal is basically a coward and thus will not come at you openly.

I say learn both dueling and fighting and go with what the moment brings. Don't expect or train for a set situation.