Why "Knife arts" will get you killed

[kenpo2dabone]

You have a much more diplomatic tongue "keyboard" than I do.

 

[Shadow Hunter]

Originally posted by lhommedieu
What you are talking about is the way that some Filipino martial arts art taught to the masses, in commerical schools or seminars - and I agree (as, I am sure countless others do) that teaching other people how to be "knife fighters" is both stupid and criminal. However, as I said above, there are some very good teachers out there who are neither typical, no prone to brag about their prowess with a knife.

Yes some people who have studied FMA have defeated people with knives. Not everyone who uses a knife knows what they are doing. For that matter, there are people who have used Tae Bo to defend themselves. If the other guy is a bigger idiot, then it really does not matter much if you are one as well.

But what I am saying is that just about every culture where you have a repressive goverment and a large semi- orginized criminal population too poor to own guns you start to see groups of techniques being perfected desighned to kill a person with a knife when they do not have one. America does not have too many of these systems as of yet, but I doubt it will remain that way. Have you seen some of what is being taught in prisons nowdays???

These systems come from the left field of a typical FMA or other knife arts manner of experience. The fact is, if you go up against a knife fighter using these types of techniques when they have a knife you will die a very bloody death. But you compensate by not fighting anyone if they have a knife. :shrug:

 

[Phil Elmore]

There are predetors out there, and they are not training like you do in your safe little dojo.

Concepts such as this were the inspiration for The Martialist.

Be afraid little sheep, be very afraid.

 

[sercuerdasfigther]

HEY SHADOW HUNTER,

WE ALL GET IT, YOU GOT A BIG DICK. NEXT THREAD PLEASE.

 

[Shadow Hunter]

All caps, I am suitably impressed with your maturity. :shrug:

 

[kenpo2dabone]

Shadow Hunter,

You are right, I should not have said "you seem very willing to kill". I should have quoted you and then responded to the statement directly. I did not mean to imply that you are eager to kill but your point seems mute. Someone who trains in the knife or any weapons for that matter when confronted by an assailant who is armed chooses not to use there weapon would be like Tiger woods deciding to play his next golf match with out any golf clubs. It's just not going to happen. I will agree with you one hundred percent that there are people that are willing to stab you to death for no more that your wallet. This is why people train in knife arts all be it not the only reason.


Salute,

Mike Miller UKF

 

[Shadow Hunter]

Thank you Kenpo2dabone for the quick apology. I make mistakes myself, so I can hardly hold an honest mistake against you.

Originally posted by kenpo2dabone
Someone who trains in the knife or any weapons for that matter when confronted by an assailant who is armed chooses not to use there weapon would be like Tiger woods deciding to play his next golf match with out any golf clubs. It's just not going to happen.

I have to disagree with you here. I have trained a lot with weapons and have managed to get caught without them, or been unable to get them out before I was attacked.

It was not a matter of "choosing" not to use a weapon, but the sudden realization that the time I took getting to mine would be enough for the other guy to play show- and- tell with my guts. Of course, you can carry oc gas on a key ring in your hand, which is why I am so in love with the stuff now.

 

[kenpo2dabone]

>>>I have to disagree with you here. I have trained a lot with weapons and have managed to get caught without them, or been unable to get them out before I was attacked.<<<

Sorry for the >>><<< I have not figured out how to do the quotes yet, but I will.


How were you attacked and what did you do about it? You obviously survived the attack(s) so did you defeat the assailant open handed or did you create the time and space needed to draw your weapon.

Mike Miller UKF

 

[clapping_tiger]

Originally posted by Shadow Hunter
So far no one seems to understand.

Ask yourself these three questions.

1- are you willing to take a blow to give a blow?

2- are you willing to take a knife thrust to deliever your own knife thrust tot he other guy?

3- would you be willing to take a broken rib to stick your knife in the other guys heart?

1. Not if I don't have to. But working on pain management will help you if you get hit, which most likely will happen and you need to train for it and be prepaired for it. But to say being willing to take a blow to give a blow (I am seeing the end of every Rocky movie here) is very dangerous. I have been hit with single shots that have buckled my knees and I have done the same to others. You never know what kind of power your oppenent will be packing, or if they will get that lucky shot in.

2. Who is to say the first knife thrust delivered to you will not kill you before you get a chance to deliever your own. Not a good idea in my opinion.

3. If I knew that all I was going to get was a broken rib, then sure. But if you need to kill someone, then the onter must be trying to kill you, and I don't think I would be thinking about anything but survival at that point. If I get a broken rib, broken leg, cut wrist I won't care as long as I come out alive.

My point is not to be willing to take this punishment, but be prepaired for it and worry about it after the threat has cleared. Perhaps I misunderstood your post but it seems to me that you are talking about always being able to overpower your opponent with your strength and training over his. But no matter what you do or how hard you train, Any given Sunday.....................

 

[Phil Elmore]

oc gas on a key ring in your hand, which is why I am so in love with the stuff now.

OC Spray is hardly what I would call the magic answer to self-defense. It won't stop a determined assailant.

 

[Joe]

O agree w/phil OC spray can only give a quick secound from an agrressive attacker, ehich is where traing comes in.
On a secound matter you shouldnt be bereated into an apology Kenpo2 as I agree Shadows ego and willingness to inflict the greatest harm is present in his words. You can always find another solution any thug can stab someone it takes self dicipline and training to remove yourself from from the situation. isnt that what we train for? If I have offended anyone you an adult it will pass.

Joe

 

[Phil Elmore]

I don't see a desire or a willingness to inflict unnecessary harm or use unwarranted force in what he's written -- that's a misinterpretation of what he's said.

 

[Shadow Hunter]

Originally posted by clapping_tiger
Perhaps I misunderstood your post

Yes, you did. Completely.

"Joe" I am assuming you don't speak English as your native language. Go study some and let the adults have a conversation with a little intelligence involved instead of speaking in terms even you can understand.

Originally posted by Sharp Phil
I don't see a desire or a willingness to inflict unnecessary harm or use unwarranted force in what he's written -- that's a misinterpretation of what he's said.

Wow! I know you don't like certain things I write, but you still step up to defend me when you see something that is not right. You are really a man of honor.
:cheers:

I can only add that I would rather have oc spray in my hand than nothing at all. If I could walk through a dark parking lot with a M14 rifle I would, but I would tend to get stopped by the cops. Oc is the best compromise between getting in trouble with the law and being completely unarmed.

 

[Rich Parsons]

Just some Random Thoughts and Personal Opinions


Is Shadow Hunter trying to sell something? I am just waiting for the final push.

(S)He is very upset and traumatized by the recent killing of a martial artist and this is his/her way of handling the situation.


(S)He mentions the really nasty tricks? What the cut and slash? The stab and slash? The sneak up with your knife or shiv cupped and stab from behind? Please do Tell? Or is it the secret Technique you will have to kill me if you told me??

(S)He makes claims that they can beat any one in a FMA or Knife art with a Knife. Sometimes (S)He qualifies that the opponent is unarmed. Other times it is not clear? These claims seem unrealistic, especially coming from someone puching realism.

(S)He has not met everyone, yet makes great generalizations. And if they reply here upset with my observations, then they should look in the mirror first and ask themselves some questions.

(S)He has mentioned that getting to their weapon would have taken too long. This is the first and only piece of evidence I have seen that this person has even talked to someone in a real fight let alone been in one.

How many times have you actually fought someone with a knife? A gun? Bare Hands. I do not mean in a ring where there are rules. I mean on the street where you do not know if they have that knife or that gun, and yet you find yourself in the mess? You claimed Decades of Training. With out a name and some proof to go with that name I have problems believing your claims. Sorry.

When was the last time you were in court facing charges? Or at least as a witness for or against those facing the charges?

I would never take a broken rib to stab someone. I would wait and choose my targets better. So not everyone will do the exchange. OH yeah And I am a big guy and I do not like exchanges, when I can avoid it. Are there people out there that do and would? Yes. Are there people that will shoot you with a sniper rifle while you gas your car? Yes. What does this mean to the Martial Arts? Should everyone get a ullet proof vest and hire professional Valets to gas our vehicles?


I have "Seen" people take deep stabs to the chest and still walk and talk and get into a car and go to the hospital. Lung pierced and heart nicked, multiple times.


As for empty hands versus the knife, if it is all I got, then it is what I use. If I do not have time to get a weapon (Shoe, Belt, Pen or pocket Knife or rock or a can of tuna fish ** I have used all these and more ** ) then I use the empty hands. For you see I want to survive.


So, Mister I have a secret technique the word is not ready for, you sound so much like Norshadow A Banned User and also MoroMoro another Banned User, please continue to make your point that none of us seem to get. Which is, You are better then us. Ok. I can live with that, now crawl back into your hole/cave before the sun light hits you and turns you into stone.

 

[Shadow Hunter]

Originally posted by Rich Parsons

(S)He mentions the really nasty tricks? What the cut and slash? The stab and slash? The sneak up with your knife or shiv cupped and stab from behind? Please do Tell? Or is it the secret Technique you will have to kill me if you told me??

I don't want to give anyone any ammunition criminals can use against innocents. What kind of responsibility would I show if I detailed something a criminal could learn here? Do you want people to die? Everyone says they can deal with a trick when you mention it to them, but in my experience, they all end up "dead" in practice.

Originally posted by Rich Parsons
(S)He makes claims that they can beat any one in a FMA or Knife art with a Knife. Sometimes (S)He qualifies that the opponent is unarmed. Other times it is not clear? These claims seem unrealistic, especially coming from someone puching realism.

No, I have always said that when the other guy is unarmed I can win, but when we both have knives I get dead when I use these techniques.

Originally posted by Rich Parsons
(S)He has not met everyone, yet makes great generalizations. And if they reply here upset with my observations, then they should look in the mirror first and ask themselves some questions.

I have said that IN MY EXPERIENCE SO FAR when dealing with everyone I have met.... From that I guess that my sample of the general population is just as vaild as what they do for surveys.

Originally posted by Rich Parsons
(S)He has mentioned that getting to their weapon would have taken too long. This is the first and only piece of evidence I have seen that this person has even talked to someone in a real fight let alone been in one.

Oh really....:shrug:

Originally posted by Rich Parsons
How many times have you actually fought someone with a knife? A gun? Bare Hands. I do not mean in a ring where there are rules. I mean on the street where you do not know if they have that knife or that gun, and yet you find yourself in the mess? You claimed Decades of Training. With out a name and some proof to go with that name I have problems believing your claims. Sorry.

Blah blah blah. It is easier to discredit out of hand than deal with facts, isn't it?

Originally posted by Rich Parsons
I would never take a broken rib to stab someone. I would wait and choose my targets better.

My point exactly! You think like a knife fighter and expect everyone else to act like you do. Well, there are people who will take a black eye to put you in the grave.

Originally posted by Rich Parsons
now crawl back into your hole/cave before the sun light hits you and turns you into stone.

Gee, and I was thinking that moderators here were supposed to uphold standards about maintaining the friendly atmosphere of Martialtalk. Guess the standards aren't used when it is not convinient for the management, eh? :shrug:

 

[Phil Elmore]

It is difficult to maintain the "friendly atmosphere" of the forum in the face of egotistical proclamations of the type you've been making.

 

[OULobo]

Teetering on the vast edge of bad budo here.

 

[Bob Hubbard]

Admin Note:

Gee, and I was thinking that moderators here were supposed to uphold standards about maintaining the friendly atmosphere of Martialtalk. Guess the standards aren't used when it is not convinient for the management, eh?

Its called an opinion. Nothing that was said is "Official" at this point. All staff are allowed to have em, and use em, regardless of the thoughs otherwise by some. I don't ask my staff to bury their viewpoints on issues.

this -is- an official statement. Hense the "Note" tag above.

 

[Bob Hubbard]

Now for the unofficial opinion:

Shadow claims that the majoroity of techniques taught in the mainstreme FMA wouldn't work in reality.

I both agree and disagree. As I've not been in a knife fight (and hope never to be in one) I can't tell if my own training is adequete. Having trained under folks who have been in such fights however, I have to think they did in fact know something, as they were both here and not horibly scared.

Do I think the majority of stuff taught is in the realm of fantasy land and movie tricks? Yes.

Do I agree that somewhere someone is learning some really brutal stuff as well as a desire to use it no matter the cost? Yup.
2 phrases here: 911 and Box Cutters.

I don't want to give anyone any ammunition criminals can use against innocents. What kind of responsibility would I show if I detailed something a criminal could learn here? Do you want people to die? Everyone says they can deal with a trick when you mention it to them, but in my experience, they all end up "dead" in practice.

This is a copout. Unless you've got a video to point us to, I doubt highly that any intelegent person will think they can learn the 'elite' stuff from a few paragraphs and a picture on a msg board. Hell if that system worked, I'd be a master of Wing Chun and Iaido right now.

I have said that IN MY EXPERIENCE SO FAR when dealing with everyone I have met.... From that I guess that my sample of the general population is just as vaild as what they do for surveys.

No argument here. Your experience and mine are different. In yours, something my work, in mine, it wont. Why? Well, previous experiences and such. (Hope that makes sence)


Theres both some good stuff in here, and some real BS. Look past the BS and you'll find something of value I think. Now, lets keep it a little more respectful, as I'd prefer not to lock threads today.

Thanks.

 

[kenpo2dabone]

I am still waiting for a reply to my questions concerning your surviving attacks in the past where you were unable to draw your weapon or youweren't carrying one at the time of the attack. I am very curious as to how you were attacked and what you did to survive it.

Mke Miller UKF