Why is this done?

[Monkey Turned Wolf]

The benefits of kata (again) are forming a strong stance foundation, footwork and tai sabaki (evasion), teaching good balance and posture, effective form when executing techniques, and last but not least, self-defense against grabs and other attacks.

Kata is not an end to itself, but part of an overall program of various trainings, each lending its own benefits.

Not having done kata or much karate, or understanding the origins and development of same, you do not have a good comprehension of the subject. "Beating the hell out of each other via kumite all the time" leads not to karate, but to brawling.

Just as an fyi, since you're using a lack of his experience with karate as an argument... @Hanzou has mentioned extensive (i think over 10 years but might be wrong) training in shotokan before switching to BJJ. So he's got experience training what he's talking about.

 

[drop bear]

The fact that MMA is commonly successful in self defense doesn't mean other styles are not. I could easily apply this "logic" to any art.

"Punches are not common in BJJ. BJJ is very commonly used in self-defense. 2 + 2 = 4, therefore boxing sucks for self-defense."

No. You build a case by producing evidence for that case. So there is evidence for boxing being successful even though it isn't used in BJJ.

And of course there is evidence for boxing in environments that BJJ compete in like MMA.

So the parts all equal pretty much the same thing. So now it is like 1+1+1+1=4.

Not the other way round. Which is basically the I don't know equalequal fallacy.

 

[drop bear]

MMA us really of no value to me at all. It really is nothing new. Combining different training methods, have been going on throughout the evolution of Martial Arts from basically the beginning.

Yeah. It is evidence based martial arts that is the defining factor of MMA evolution.

People did it. But nobody properly tested it.

 

[Hanzou]

The benefits of kata (again) are forming a strong stance foundation, footwork and tai sabaki (evasion), teaching good balance and posture, effective form when executing techniques, and last but not least, self-defense against grabs and other attacks.

Non-kata martial arts do the exact same thing without kata, so obviously Karate can accomplish those same goals without kata.

Kata is not an end to itself, but part of an overall program of various trainings, each lending its own benefits.

Which aren't inherently necessary, as evidenced by multiple MAs that don't have kata at all, yet are effective.

Not having done kata or much karate, or understanding the origins and development of same,

I have done and understand both. Thanks for the assumption though.

you do not have a good comprehension of the subject. "Beating the hell out of each other via kumite all the time" leads not to karate, but to brawling.

So is Muay Thai, Boxing, or Sanda nothing more than "brawling" since they don't contain forms?

 

[skribs]

No. You build a case by producing evidence for that case. So there is evidence for boxing being successful even though it isn't used in BJJ.

And of course there is evidence for boxing in environments that BJJ compete in like MMA.

So the parts all equal pretty much the same thing. So now it is like 1+1+1+1=4.

Not the other way round. Which is basically the I don't know equalequal fallacy.

I'm not sure how to address this. Do I...

• Point to the successful MMA fighters with a TMA background, like those with experience in Taekwondo and Karate?
• Point to the success people with TMA backgrounds have had in real self-defense situations?
• Try to explain (hoping you'd listen) why more people fight with a TMA background than you realize, because what you see in the forms or basic techniques isn't what you see when they actually fight?
• Try to explain (again hoping you'd listen) how MMA isn't a perfect simulation of everything? (Even though it is the best simulation we have available).

So many options to choose from. But...I don't think you'd listen to any of them, as I've already gone into detail on this in the past. So I'll just leave the highlights here.

 

[Graywalker]

Yeah. It is evidence based martial arts that is the defining factor of MMA evolution.

People did it. But nobody properly tested it.

That's great bud, but nothing you say, will convince me. Your evidence is based in safety and ruleset, arts are always based on individual ability...always, in the real world scenario. This is how it has always been and always will be...the system is just not that important. You do and use what helps you survive in reality. It coming close, without actual knowledge, is playing the odds and that can get you killed.

Let it go, let it go.

 

[Hanzou]

That's great bud, but nothing you say, will convince me. Your evidence is based in safety and ruleset,

It’s also based on traditional martial art schools being willing to lie to incorporate Bjj into their curriculums.

 

[isshinryuronin]

I have done and understand both. Thanks for the assumption though.

I erred in confusing the quoter with the responder. It appears you had 10 years in Shotokan? If so, most people with that much expertise in karate would be a 2nd or 3rd dan with more appreciation of what the art contains, so am a little surprised by your views. (I may be wrong in generalizing so. If so, my apologies.) As you understand kata well, you know it originally was a method of solo practicing pure brutal combat techniques in Okinawa.

Shotokan's kata are more stylized than the Okinawan kata, so in some (not all) of their dojos, the practical applications of their techniques are harder to discern as a rule. Of course the Sensei's knowledge comes into play regarding their understanding of their art. This is true in any style.

My very limited knowledge points to forms training in old Muay Thai. I have come across a form (or series of forms?) (or a style of Muay Thai that has forms?) called Muay Thai Boran. Not sure if this is just one guy's recent invention, or if it represents the original (not competitive sport) Muay Thai.

Many old tournament sparring champions such as Chuck Norris were kata champions as well. There were professional warriors in old Okinawa, whose fighting skills determined life or death for them, or their opponent. These were the guys who developed the kata that many of our current kata are based on. These guys played for keeps, not sport. So why would they waste their time on kata if it was of little use in fighting? By the way, the Samurai swordmasters (who would kill if you looked at them wrong) practiced kata as well - why?

Just wanted to present a fuller picture of my side of our dialog, not to force them on you. Kata - take it or leave it.

 

[Graywalker]

It’s also based on traditional martial art schools being willing to lie to incorporate Bjj into their curriculums.

In your opinion, but you seem to think some Karate doesn't practice ground escapes and grappling, and that is simply a false assumption.

Sure, some schools might, be sneaky with the BJJ addition, but there are gyms and coaches that will claim what they do, works in the street, with no personal experience at all, but by god they will claim it does because they tested it in competitions or the MMA octagon, with a ref and the ability to stop it and save their butts.

It works both ways.

A majority of schools in various styles of TMA, gave up training a lot of different ways, strictly to compete. That is what happened, this is well known...if it wasn't then you wouldn't have discussions, on how Gichin changed and left stuff out. And, that method then continued by his son for competitions. There is not much disputing that this did occur.

But, some schools didn't, to think otherwise, is simply ignorance.

 

[Deleted member 39746]

I would need to see that kata, because it's rather hard to believe that you can pull something like the Guard system from a kata. The Guard system comes from experimentation and fighting application. It's also an invention of Brazilians, since it doesn't really exist in Asian martial arts.

It's also doubtful that Ninjas in medieval Japan needed to know how to pass a Guard.

Case by case basis, no idea if in this instance it comes from anything in their system before they branched into BJJ. My statement was more general. People get too specfic on where XYZ comes from, and dont realise it can be without any outside influence and be a similar or the same conclusion, it happens all the time especially before you can ping information globally easily.

a ninja probbly wouldnt pass a guard the same way you would in BJJ now days though. (been looking into a Jujutsu koryu and it was pretty much grapplign with shortswords)

 

[dvcochran]

By the way, Hanson, nice to see you again.

As for your question, maybe they haven’t picked up on getting their hooks in yet. Maybe that will come in his next months “see, we grapple, too” lesson.

Agree, and I would add that looks like something straight out of Roman-Greco style wrestling. A drill we often practiced when in the bottom position.
To the Hanzou 's OP I cannot think of a form that could express any of the ground fighting leg techniques but I can and do see some of the hand/arm techniques in forms. Whether that is how they are explained I imagine is different for each style.

I do think you are seeing the 'melting pot' of styles maybe in reverse a little; so much information is overlapping between styles everyone is 'poaching' things they see as good and implementing them into their style/system.

 

[dvcochran]

If you’re a karate master, your kata should be crisp as hell. A master in karate should have kata that looks like this;

And yes, I love Rika Usami.

I am not a practiced JMA guy but I know a great form when I see one. The use of the ready had was amazing. Excellent overall composition.

 

[dvcochran]

I would need to see that kata, because it's rather hard to believe that you can pull something like the Guard system from a kata. The Guard system comes from experimentation and fighting application. It's also an invention of Brazilians, since it doesn't really exist in Asian martial arts.

It's also doubtful that Ninjas in medieval Japan needed to know how to pass a Guard.

I am not certain about that 'invention'. Guarding has been around a long time in the wrestling world so if you wanted to lay claim to where it originated I would say it has to be France. I imagine it has been changed or that derivatives have been created though. Just as in about every other technique out there.

 

[Hanzou]

I erred in confusing the quoter with the responder. It appears you had 10 years in Shotokan? If so, most people with that much expertise in karate would be a 2nd or 3rd dan with more appreciation of what the art contains, so am a little surprised by your views. (I may be wrong in generalizing so. If so, my apologies.) As you understand kata well, you know it originally was a method of solo practicing pure brutal combat techniques in Okinawa.

Shotokan's kata are more stylized than the Okinawan kata, so in some (not all) of their dojos, the practical applications of their techniques are harder to discern as a rule. Of course the Sensei's knowledge comes into play regarding their understanding of their art. This is true in any style.

Yes, I was second dan when I left Shotokan. The error here is that you think my instruction wasn't excellent, or that I somehow didn't understand what I was doing, or the origins of the kata. In fact, I had excellent instruction, and I was very interested in the history and the purpose of kata. The problem was that I encountered Boxing during my tenure in karate, and the boxers I ran across were vastly superior strikers to any karateka I knew. Boxers don't do kata, yet they run circles around karateka, and I think if karate's goal is to become something on the level of boxing in terms of striking art, they should examine why boxing is so good at what it does.

My very limited knowledge points to forms training in old Muay Thai. I have come across a form (or series of forms?) (or a style of Muay Thai that has forms?) called Muay Thai Boran. Not sure if this is just one guy's recent invention, or if it represents the original (not competitive sport) Muay Thai.

Muay Boran and their forms is rarely taught outside of Thailand. If you walk into a Muay Thai gym, (or a MMA gym that teaches MT) you're not learning Muay Boran, you're learning the sport of Muay Thai without the forms.

Many old tournament sparring champions such as Chuck Norris were kata champions as well. There were professional warriors in old Okinawa, whose fighting skills determined life or death for them, or their opponent. These were the guys who developed the kata that many of our current kata are based on. These guys played for keeps, not sport. So why would they waste their time on kata if it was of little use in fighting? By the way, the Samurai swordmasters (who would kill if you looked at them wrong) practiced kata as well - why?

Just wanted to present a fuller picture of my side of our dialog, not to force them on you. Kata - take it or leave it.

With all due respect to Chuck Norris, he was a point sparring champ, not a full contact karate or Vale Tudo champ. Also the legends of Okinawan warrior prowess is frankly overblown. For all of their supposed skill, they were still subjugated rather easily by the Japanese.

 

[Hanzou]

In your opinion, but you seem to think some Karate doesn't practice ground escapes and grappling, and that is simply a false assumption.

I've been asking you to provide evidence of this since this thread began, yet you still have failed to do so.

Case by case basis, no idea if in this instance it comes from anything in their system before they branched into BJJ. My statement was more general. People get too specfic on where XYZ comes from, and dont realise it can be without any outside influence and be a similar or the same conclusion, it happens all the time especially before you can ping information globally easily.

a ninja probbly wouldnt pass a guard the same way you would in BJJ now days though. (been looking into a Jujutsu koryu and it was pretty much grapplign with shortswords)

The point is that a Ninja wouldn't need to learn how to pass a guard at all. In fact, even in modern times, there's really no need to learn how to pass a guard for self defense. The chances of you needing to know how to pass guard in a self defense situation is pretty close to zero. An attacker is not going pull guard on you, and the only reason you would ever encounter guard outside of a Bjj gym or a competition is if you somehow run across a Bjj or MMA enthusiast who YOU are dominating on the ground and YOU are trying to punish.

We learn to pass guard in Bjj in order to beat other Bjj practicioners.

 

[Hanzou]

I am not certain about that 'invention'. Guarding has been around a long time in the wrestling world so if you wanted to lay claim to where it originated I would say it has to be France. I imagine it has been changed or that derivatives have been created though. Just as in about every other technique out there.

You're talking about trunk holds or body scissors. The trunk hold (Do Jime in Judo) and body scissors isn't the same as the Guard system in Bjj. Further, there are multiple types of Guard, not just the closed variation.

 

[dvcochran]

You're talking about trunk holds or body scissors. The trunk hold (Do Jime in Judo) and body scissors isn't the same as the Guard system in Bjj. Further, there are multiple types of Guard, not just the closed variation.

Agree, but this is sort of the nexus of the whole post isn't it? Something is picked up from somewhere else, (another style) modified, changed, added to, called by another name, claimed by another style/person and then eventually coalesces into both styles/systems. I do not think this is a bad thing. All the posturing and claiming "that is mine" can be though. For example, you mentioned the trunk hold and the Do Jime are the same thing. Does it really matter where it originated?
I seriously doubt it is done exactly the was it originated anyway.

 

[Hanzou]

Agree, but this is sort of the nexus of the whole post isn't it? Something is picked up from somewhere else, (another style) modified, changed, added to, called by another name, claimed by another style/person and then eventually coalesces into both styles/systems. I do not think this is a bad thing. All the posturing and claiming "that is mine" can be though. For example, you mentioned the trunk hold and the Do Jime are the same thing. Does it really matter where it originated?
I seriously doubt it is done exactly the was it originated anyway.

No not really. The Guard position evolved from fighting off your back against a superior top position grappler (like wrestlers), or someone bigger and stronger than you. Also variations of open guard and half guard looks nothing like Trunk Holds or Body scissors. Wrestling and Judo never developed that aspect because the purpose of both sports was to avoid being on your back. Heck, in some forms of wrestling being on your back is viewed as an instant defeat, whereas in other forms of wrestling being on your back for a set amount of time is considered a pin, and thus a loss. So there was no reason to ever develop a position where you're fighting off your back for an extended amount of time. You can see this happening in Judo where the sport side of the MA has reduced the amount of time allowed for ground fighting, and that has actually altered how newaza is trained over time.

Bjj developed from NHB fights and matches where those rules simply weren't in play, so they were allowed to develop a system of fighting off your back for an extended amount of time.

There's also a huge difference between one type of guard resembling old wrestling holds, and a TMA literally taking the Bjj Guard system and claiming they got it from an ancient kata.

 

[Hanzou]

@dvcochran just to point out what I'm talking about with the Guard, check out this grappling match between a catch wrestler and a Bjj practicioner, and observe the Guard play from the latter. I would also ignore the back and forth stuff in the beginning and skip right to the match @3:41 mark.

 

[drop bear]

That's great bud, but nothing you say, will convince me. Your evidence is based in safety and ruleset, arts are always based on individual ability...always, in the real world scenario. This is how it has always been and always will be...the system is just not that important. You do and use what helps you survive in reality. It coming close, without actual knowledge, is playing the odds and that can get you killed.

Let it go, let it go.

Ok .let's look at individual ability. So the Danaher system is a very comprehensive leg lock system. And the Danaher death squad is very competitive with their leg locks in competition.

Now you are suggesting their system didn't work but that it just happened to be a coincidence that their system and their success in competition matched. Because the individuals just were genetically great foot lockers.

Everyone's evidence is based on safety and rule sets. The whole premis behind learning to fight is evidence based on rule set and safety.

Before you send your guys out to have their first street fight. You will have trained them in a safe environment with rules. So that they can gain competence in the skill they are learning.

Again if we go back to the military. This is why they do BJJ. In part to test and increase the soldiers capability before they send him out to kill Hitler.

Developing warrior ethos.