Why is this done?

[Fudo]

The implication is clear though, since they didn’t mention where they actually got those techniques, and mention adapted kata instead of just saying they learned it from Bjj. They could have easily just said that in modern times they adapt many modern disciplines, and gave credit where credit is due.

It says has adapted many katas to modern times-meaning it has taken old katas and applied to modern times =Goshinjutsu.
It also says has a sub set ground curriculum of 30 techniques- Which implies additonal or part of what they teach. He does not say our ground curriculum is part of Shinden Fudo ryu as a subset nor does he say our ground curriculum is part of an ancient kata implying it is from anything ninjutsu realted.
But if it bothers you so much why not ask for clarfication from them? I am sure they would be happy to explain what they meant.
Contact The Dojo

 

[Hanzou]

It says has adapted many katas to modern times-meaning it has taken old katas and applied to modern times =Goshinjutsu.
It also says has a sub set ground curriculum of 30 techniques- Which implies additonal or part of what they teach. He does not say our ground curriculum is part of Shinden Fudo ryu as a subset nor does he say our ground curriculum is part of an ancient kata implying it is from anything ninjutsu realted.
But if it bothers you so much why not ask for clarfication from them? I am sure they would be happy to explain what they meant.
Contact The Dojo

I think you should read the introduction to the video again. They make it rather clear that they supposedly got their ground fighting techniques by adapting kata, which is utter and complete nonsense.

I have no need to contact the dojo for clarification. I already know exactly what they're doing.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

This really isn't the same thing. You're talking about the Japanese denying something that happened hundreds of years ago, and as Fudo pointed out, there's some discrepancy in when the Japanese developed unarmed Jujutsu techniques. We know that the Samurai existed in Japan in the 12th century, and that predates the Ming Dynasty by almost a century.

In any case, I'm talking about a martial art school that is clearly using Bjj techniques and claiming it comes from their kata instead of a sport MA which they clearly malign.

Do you think there are just too much similarity between both?

Yuan Dynasty Chinese Shuai-Chiao (1277 ~ 1367)

Japanese Sumo.

 

[Hanzou]

Do you think there are just too much similarity between both?

Like many things in Japanese culture, I have no doubt that some aspects of classical Jujutsu came from China. That really isn't the same as what we're talking about here. In this case we have TMA schools implementing Bjj ground fighting, not giving Bjj credit for it, and then implying that sport MAs are inferior to their "traditional" system.

I understand why they're doing it. It's just sleazy and underhanded, and they're teaching their students in an inferior way.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

Like many things in Japanese culture, I have no doubt that some aspects of classical Jujutsu came from China. That really isn't the same as what we're talking about here. In this case we have TMA schools implementing Bjj ground fighting, not giving Bjj credit for it, and then implying that sport MAs are inferior to their "traditional" system.

People like to steal. That's just human nature. People also like to think their MA system is perfect and complete.

A: Does your style have roundhouse kick?
B: My style has hook punch. The roundhouse kick is just a hook punch with the leg.

A: Does your style have flying knee?
B: My style has jumping kick. The flying knee is just a jumping kick without the kick.

A: Does your style have spin hook kick?
B: My style has floor sweep. The spin hook kick is just a floor sweep but higher.

A: Does your style have ground game?
B: My style has stand up lock. The ground game is just a stand up lock on the ground.

I told WC guys that my SC system also has the WC Bong Shou. Here is the proof.

 

[Fudo]

I think you should read the introduction to the video again. They make it rather clear that they supposedly got their ground fighting techniques by adapting kata, which is utter and complete nonsense.

I have no need to contact the dojo for clarification. I already know exactly what they're doing.

So rather than then ask the guy who made the video exactly what he meant for clarfication you rather create a post on martial talk complaining about it?! Dude you are the ultimate P U S S Y.

 

[Hanzou]

So rather than then ask the guy who made the video exactly what he meant for clarfication you rather create a post on martial talk complaining about it?! Dude you are the ultimate P U S S Y.

Since we can all read, and since we know the difference between techniques pulled from kata and techniques pulled from another MA, why do we need clarification exactly? The guy who made the video didn't mention Bjj at any point in the video, or in the description, and stated specifically that the techniques are pulled from kata and some "30 techniques".

I'm sorry if I offended your marital arts brethren who like to pretend that they're 16th century warriors, but facts are facts.

BTW, I wasn't complaining about them doing it, I was just asking why do they feel the need to do it.

 

[lklawson]

This kind of things happened all the time. The Japanese Jiu-Jitsu came from the Chinese Shuai-Chiao. But some Japanese won't admit that

That's because it's more likely that it evolved from local wrestling and fighting styles. China is "close" (ish) but not that close, particularly during the period you're referring to, when travel was far less easy than it is today. It's much more likely that what you're seeing is a case of parallel evolution. The human body only breaks in so many ways and given a decade or two, everyone is likely to find all of them and it's going to end up looking pretty similar.

Ming Dynasty (1277 ~ 1367)

Chen Yuan-Ping is credited for bringing Shuai-Chiao to Japan. His intimate knowledge of Shuai-Chiao's joint locks, controls, takedowns, and throws formed the basis of what became Jiu-Jitsu, which later evolved into Judo and Aikido.

Did he take it to Europe too? Because they had joint locks and wrestling too. Wanna see some pictures. Did he take it to pre-Christian Rome and Greece? Parallel evolution.


Elbow Lock against lapel grab - Petter's "Wrestling" 1674 by lklawson

marozzo oshi taoshi 1 by lklawson

Reversal to Elbow Lock - Petter's "Wrestling" 1674 by lklawson

Goliath Fechtbuch by lklawson

Goliath Fechtbuch by lklawson

Origins of KODOKAN JUDO | Judo Info

This is not necessarily to deny that Chen Yuan-Ping introduced chinese boxing, 'kempo', to japan. Indeed, it is more or less reasonable to ...

<cough>"The origin of jujitsu is lost in the mists of antiquity."<cough>

Peace favor your sword,
Kirk

 

[lklawson]

there's some discrepancy in when the Japanese developed unarmed Jujutsu techniques.

Pretty much as soon as they grew hands and feet.

Peace favor your sword,
Kirk

 

[lklawson]

People like to steal. That's just human nature. People also like to think their MA system is perfect and complete.

A: Does your style have roundhouse kick?
B: My style has hook punch. The roundhouse kick is just a hook punch with the leg.

A: Does your style have flying knee?
B: My style has jumping kick. The flying knee is just a jumping kick without the kick.

A: Does your style have spin hook kick?
B: My style has floor sweep. The spin hook kick is just a floor sweep but higher.

A: Does your style have ground game?
B: My style has stand up lock. The ground game is just a stand up lock on the ground.

I told WC guys that my SC system also has the WC Bong Shou. Here is the proof.

The Shuai-Chiao folks were taught wrestling by traveling Egyptian martial artists, but they refuse to admit it. Proof!


Beni Hassan wrestling tomb art c. 3000 B.C. by lklawson

Beni Hassan wrestling tomb art c. 3000 B.C. by lklawson

Beni Hassan wrestling tomb art c. 3000 B.C. by lklawson

Beni Hassan wrestling tomb art c. 3000 B.C. by lklawson

Beni Hassan wrestling tomb art c. 3000 B.C. by lklawson

Peace favor your sword,
Kirk

 

[Buka]

I saw the introduction and the video lesson, I did not see the Sensei mention this is from any of the Ninpo ryu-ha waza specifically, he does mention they take some of the waza and apply modern concepts which would be known as Goshinjutsu(self defense which is a very general term) and once a waza is applied that way it no longer is considered part of the original curriculum offically.
For all we know since this is a snippet of a video he may have said I learned this in my BJJ class off camera.

Just wanted to say, Welcome to Martial Talk, Fudo.

 

[dvcochran]

The human body only breaks in so many ways and given a decade or two, everyone is likely to find all of them and it's going to end up looking pretty similar.

Haha! I had to laugh at that one. Several years ago I was in an accident that ended with me having 28 breaks and a bunch of other crap. I still have 10 plates (down form 12) on my body. From my perspective a bone and/or body can be broken pretty much anywhere.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

That's because it's more likely that it evolved from local wrestling and fighting styles.

They may develop similar technique. How about the similarity of their dress and hair style?

Yuan Dynasty Chinese Shuai-Chiao (1277 ~ 1367)

Japanese Sumo.

 

[lklawson]

They may develop similar technique. How about the similarity of their dress and hair style?

Yuan Dynasty Chinese Shuai-Chiao (1277 ~ 1367)

Japanese Sumo.

What about the similarity of the dress and hair style? It just proves that the traveling Egyptian martial artists taught the Chinese (and they won't admit it!).

Beni Hassan wrestling tomb art c. 3000 B.C. by lklawson

Mesopotamian man-bun.

Or, you know, it could be that there's nothing special about a loin-cloth or a man-bun.

Peace favor your sword,
Kirk