Why is this done?

[drop bear]

I'm not sure how to address this. Do I...

• Point to the successful MMA fighters with a TMA background, like those with experience in Taekwondo and Karate?
• Point to the success people with TMA backgrounds have had in real self-defense situations?
• Try to explain (hoping you'd listen) why more people fight with a TMA background than you realize, because what you see in the forms or basic techniques isn't what you see when they actually fight?
• Try to explain (again hoping you'd listen) how MMA isn't a perfect simulation of everything? (Even though it is the best simulation we have available).

So many options to choose from. But...I don't think you'd listen to any of them, as I've already gone into detail on this in the past. So I'll just leave the highlights here.

Ok. So we are back to looking at cause and effect. So we can point to systems that work through evidence.

We can look at TMA training that does work in MMA and that is really easy because I know a point fighting karate school that does pretty well in MMA competition.

And we can look at that schools system and say for example your system and maybe try to figure out why one TMA point fighting karate school is successful at turning out fighters and the other has no evidence of success ever, anywhere.

Fitzroy Martial Arts | Fitzroy Fitness

Now to try to be a bit on topic. Hanzou for example could look at their ground work and see if they are doing freaky weird stuff from a Kata that just seems to fly in the face of anyone who has had any grappling success.


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[Gerry Seymour]

In your opinion, but you seem to think some Karate doesn't practice ground escapes and grappling, and that is simply a false assumption.

Some Karate doesn't.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

No not really. The Guard position evolved from fighting off your back against a superior top position grappler (like wrestlers), or someone bigger and stronger than you. Also variations of open guard and half guard looks nothing like Trunk Holds or Body scissors. Wrestling and Judo never developed that aspect because the purpose of both sports was to avoid being on your back. Heck, in some forms of wrestling being on your back is viewed as an instant defeat, whereas in other forms of wrestling being on your back for a set amount of time is considered a pin, and thus a loss. So there was no reason to ever develop a position where you're fighting off your back for an extended amount of time. You can see this happening in Judo where the sport side of the MA has reduced the amount of time allowed for ground fighting, and that has actually altered how newaza is trained over time.

Bjj developed from NHB fights and matches where those rules simply weren't in play, so they were allowed to develop a system of fighting off your back for an extended amount of time.

There's also a huge difference between one type of guard resembling old wrestling holds, and a TMA literally taking the Bjj Guard system and claiming they got it from an ancient kata.

I keep getting lost in BJJ terminology. Remind me again, please, what "open" and "closed" are, in reference to guard.

 

[Graywalker]

Some Karate doesn't.

Some Karate does, would mean some Karate doesn't.

 

[drop bear]

I keep getting lost in BJJ terminology. Remind me again, please, what "open" and "closed" are, in reference to guard.

Closed is your legs locked behind their back.

Open is your legs active.
Eg.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

Some Karate does, would mean some Karate doesn't.

That's doesn't logically follow, but that's irrelevant. You said "you seem to think some Karate doesn't practice ground escapes and grappling, and that is simply a false assumption". I was simply saying that it's true that some Karate doesn't, so it wouldn't have been a false assumption. Perhaps what you meant was "you seem to think that no Karate practices ground escapes"?

 

[Gerry Seymour]

Closed is your legs locked behind their back.

Open is your legs active.
Eg.

Thanks. Some day I'll remember that.

 

[Hanzou]

I keep getting lost in BJJ terminology. Remind me again, please, what "open" and "closed" are, in reference to guard.

DB pretty much explained it. There's also half guard which tends to be where you're on your side, arms wrapping up their upper body, and your legs or leg is controlling one of your opponent's legs so that they can't advance to side control or mount. A lot of Bjjers can do some amazing stuff from half guard.

I'm not one of them.

 

[isshinryuronin]

the boxers I ran across were vastly superior strikers to any karateka

Shotokan morphed into stylized sport and general self-improvement activity pretty much from its inception as you know. Thus, its focus was not on just pure fighting skills. In comparing karateka and boxer striking, this must be factored in Some karateka do emphasize fighting to a higher degree than others. Also, are you considering the karateka are unable to put their full skill set to use in a boxing setting? Grabbing, sweeping, joint striking to elbows and knees, elbowing, kicking, attacking to groin, eyes and throat? Such things may give them an edge in actual combat, or are we just talking sport sparring? Beleive me, I have great respect for a well trained boxer, enough to stay away from their superior punching skills and try to take advantage of the karate skill sets not allowed in boxing. I think you'll agree they are two different activities.

learning Muay Boran, you're learning the sport of Muay Thai without the forms.

So, while sport Muay does not have forms, the native combat Muay does? Interesting.

With all due respect to Chuck Norris, he was a point sparring champ, not a full contact karate or Vale Tudo champ. Also the legends of Okinawan warrior prowess is frankly overblown. For all of their supposed skill, they were still subjugated rather easily by the Japanese.

True. He was getting a little old when full contact really kicked in. The key to his sparring success was his combinations which relied on good technique execution. I'm sure his kata helped with that. There was plenty of incidental (yet solid) contact when Norris was competing, especially when he was a professional.

As for the Japanese (Satsuma clan in particular) subjugating the Ryukyu Kingdom, Japan was many times bigger than tiny Okinawa with 100-1 advantage in strength. All the skill in the world can't beat odds like that. They did have resistance groups for over 200 years defending themselves against the oppressors who looked down upon the Okinawans as inferiors and often treated them as such.

 

[Hanzou]

Shotokan morphed into stylized sport and general self-improvement activity pretty much from its inception as you know. Thus, its focus was not on just pure fighting skills. In comparing karateka and boxer striking, this must be factored in Some karateka do emphasize fighting to a higher degree than others. Also, are you considering the karateka are unable to put their full skill set to use in a boxing setting? Grabbing, sweeping, joint striking to elbows and knees, elbowing, kicking, attacking to groin, eyes and throat? Such things may give them an edge in actual combat, or are we just talking sport sparring? Beleive me, I have great respect for a well trained boxer, enough to stay away from their superior punching skills and try to take advantage of the karate skill sets not allowed in boxing. I think you'll agree they are two different activities.

Let's not get silly here and push the argument that since Isshin-Ryu is more "traditional" it's thus superior to the more modern forms by default. Isshin-Ryu isn't viewed as a go-to striking system for a reason, whereas Boxing and MT are. And no, I'm not talking about sport sparring, I'm talking about fighting in general. A boxer simply has better footwork, evasion, speed, stamina, and punching power than your typical karateka, and they have a superior ability to chain their punches together into combinations that the latter simply can't adapt to.

I'm sure Isshin-Ryu provides many benefits to someone seeking martial arts training. However, if someone came to me and asked me what they wanted to take to defend themselves in a fight, I would tell them boxing without hesitation. You'll be a more competent fighter after 6 months of boxing than you would after 6 years of karate (any version of it).

So, while sport Muay does not have forms, the native combat Muay does? Interesting.

And what's more interesting is that the actual fighters coming out of Thailand practice Muay Thai, not Muay Boran.

True. He was getting a little old when full contact really kicked in. The key to his sparring success was his combinations which relied on good technique execution. I'm sure his kata helped with that. There was plenty of incidental (yet solid) contact when Norris was competing, especially when he was a professional.

The point is that point sparring isn't full contact sparring, and it isn't MMA. I wouldn't use Norris as an example for much of anything beyond action movies.

As for the Japanese (Satsuma clan in particular) subjugating the Ryukyu Kingdom, Japan was many times bigger than tiny Okinawa with 100-1 advantage in strength. All the skill in the world can't beat odds like that. They did have resistance groups for over 200 years defending themselves against the oppressors who looked down upon the Okinawans as inferiors and often treated them as such.

Indeed. My point was that for all of the vaunted skill of the Okinawans, they still lost. It's nice to look at that sort of stuff and side with the underdog, but to take the underdog concept and try to use it as a metric of MA effectiveness is foolish. I think it's better to look at it like this; Despite the Okinawans having Karate, the Japanese (honestly the Satsuma clan) still beat them handily.

So where does that leave us? It leaves us with the fact that if someone is seeking to become a professional martial arts fighter, they (typically) aren't going to a traditional karate school to develop their striking ability. There's a reason for that.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

DB pretty much explained it. There's also half guard which tends to be where you're on your side, arms wrapping up their upper body, and your legs or leg is controlling one of your opponent's legs so that they can't advance to side control or mount. A lot of Bjjers can do some amazing stuff from half guard.

I'm not one of them.

Then if we were ever to get to roll, getting you into half-mount would be my only hope. And not a very good one, since I'm unlikely to be able to control you to get you there.

 

[isshinryuronin]

Let's not ,get silly here and push the argument that since Isshin-Ryu is more "traditional" it's thus superior to the more modern forms

I never mentioned Isshinryu (there is a wide range of historical knowledge, traditionality and proficiency within this style, from high to low, depending on the school/branch), only referred to Okinawa as this is where our karate was first formed. Not trying to knock Shotokan or any other style, just providing a historical context.

Also, never called any style or form superior, just that the Okinawan kata (which Shotokan's was based on) was closer to the original design in the time line, and not modified as much as Funakoshi's system he introduced to Japan. This modification can't be heavily criticized as it was key in the popularization of karate. Indeed, I have great respect for Shotokan technical execution.

Despite the Okinawans having Karate, the Japanese (honestly the Satsuma clan) still beat them handily.

This is not correct - The Okinawans did not have Karate. Karate or more correctly Fujian White Crane kung fu, didn't even get to Okinawa till well after the Satsuma invasion of 1609, so this did not factor in. Superior numbers and resources allowed the successful invasion and occupation.

if someone is seeking to become a professional martial arts fighter, they (typically) aren't going to a traditional karate school to develop their striking ability.

I agree 100%. (I knew eventually we'd find some common ground). Thank you for these rounds of discussion.

 

[dvcochran]

@dvcochran just to point out what I'm talking about with the Guard, check out this grappling match between a catch wrestler and a Bjj practicioner, and observe the Guard play from the latter. I would also ignore the back and forth stuff in the beginning and skip right to the match @3:41 mark.

I wrestled in high school and college but have been an up fighter for most of my adult life. It is still hard for me to process willingly starting on your butt like that but is obviously is very effective.

 

[Hanzou]

I never mentioned Isshinryu (there is a wide range of historical knowledge, traditionality and proficiency within this style, from high to low, depending on the school/branch), only referred to Okinawa as this is where our karate was first formed. Not trying to knock Shotokan or any other style, just providing a historical context.

Also, never called any style or form superior, just that the Okinawan kata (which Shotokan's was based on) was closer to the original design in the time line, and not modified as much as Funakoshi's system he introduced to Japan. This modification can't be heavily criticized as it was key in the popularization of karate. Indeed, I have great respect for Shotokan technical execution.

You're free to knock Shotokan karate. I'm perfectly happy knocking it myself. My point was that we should avoid the fallacy that a martial art is better the more "traditional" it is. Take a look at that video I posted of that Catch Wrestler versus the Bjj practitioner and listen to the fight commentary. That is a prime example of old school versus new school, where the Bjj practitioner's system has evolved and adapted, while the Catch practitioner is using outmoded tactics that leave him hopelessly outclassed. Further, the Catch wrestler's tactics aren't even that old, that's just how much Bjj has evolved in the span of about a decade. This evolution was largely fueled by significant challenges to Bjj from Judo, Catch, Sambo, Wrestling, and other forms of grappling.

Not much is different on the striking side of things. The problem is that instead of evolving, systems like Isshin-Ryu (and Shotokan) stay static and adhere tightly to decades old conventions. This leads to them becoming outmoded and less effective.

This is not correct - The Okinawans did not have Karate. Karate or more correctly Fujian White Crane kung fu, didn't even get to Okinawa till well after the Satsuma invasion of 1609, so this did not factor in. Superior numbers and resources allowed the successful invasion and occupation.

According to this article, Chinese martial arts were first brought to Okinawans in the 15th century, which would be about 200 years before the Satsuma invasion;

HISTORY OF OKINAWA KARATE

We also know that King Sho Shin banned the practice of martial arts in 1477, so there were obviously some form of martial arts being practiced on the island at that point.

I agree 100%. (I knew eventually we'd find some common ground). Thank you for these rounds of discussion.

 

[Hanzou]

I wrestled in high school and college but have been an up fighter for most of my adult life. It is still hard for me to process willingly starting on your butt like that but is obviously is very effective.

As a practitioner of Bjj I'm seeing it constantly, and it's still hard for me to process as well. However, it is very effective, and it is a nightmare to deal with. I understand why it developed that way though; Why bother dealing with a superior takedown artist (i.e. a wrestler or Judoka) when you can just sit on your *** and force him to play your game?

 

[dvcochran]

As a practitioner of Bjj I'm seeing it constantly, and it's still hard for me to process as well. However, it is very effective, and it is a nightmare to deal with. I understand why it developed that way though; Why bother dealing with a superior takedown artist (i.e. a wrestler or Judoka) when you can just sit on your *** and force him to play your game?

That does make sense. It must really hard to stay back/clear and wail on whatever is closest to you? That is my Kali training kicking in.
The guy on his butt was surprisingly fast though.

 

[isshinryuronin]

Not much is different on the striking side of things. The problem is that instead of evolving, systems like Isshin-Ryu (and Shotokan) stay static and adhere tightly to decades old conventions. This leads to them becoming outmoded and less effective.

Yes, it can be said that most karate was static from 1930's to 1990's, especially in the West. Then, old Okinawan texts (extremely rare) began to be located and translated, illuminating the roots of karate as a combat fighting system based largely on White Crane (founded about 1700, and Shaolin Monk Fist (Arhat). This encouraged a good look at the past. This resulted in some change for the future, as it caused kata bunkai to be reexamined for the more effective combat applications, such as they had in the old days when it really counted.

Chinese martial arts were first brought to Okinawans in the 15th century, which would be about 200 years before the Satsuma invasion;

This is true, but Chinese martial arts were not karate. There was a Chinese trade settlement (with military attaches) in Okinawa (est. 1393) and continued for a few centuries. Some of these guys likely knew various styles of kung fu, but it does not seem they shared much. At least not enough to sustain the creation of a unique Okinawan adaptation of it (i.e. Karate).

This seems to have happened around mid 1700's when some documentation shows the arrival of Master Kusanku (Shotokan's "Kanku" kata supposedly based on his style.) A newspaper article, just after this time, about his fighting ability is the 1st known documentation of Chinese martial arts being used in Okinawa.

Several Okinawan warrior types went to China in the early/mid 1800's, notably "Toude" Sakugawa, and Aragake Seisho, to study MA (mostly White Crane and its offshoots.) It was these men and their direct students that developed what became recognizable to us as "karate." (See below for more.)

We also know that King Sho Shin banned the practice of martial arts in 1477, so there were obviously some form of martial arts being practiced on the island at that point.

True, there were native Okinawan MAs prior to the 1800's, including some Japanese MA, which later all got incorporated in the creation of Okinawan karate during the time period described above. Hanzou, you've got the general facts - hope you don't mind me fleshing them out. If I only knew something about BJJ and Muay Thai...

 

[Hanzou]

Yes, it can be said that most karate was static from 1930's to 1990's, especially in the West. Then, old Okinawan texts (extremely rare) began to be located and translated, illuminating the roots of karate as a combat fighting system based largely on White Crane (founded about 1700, and Shaolin Monk Fist (Arhat). This encouraged a good look at the past. This resulted in some change for the future, as it caused kata bunkai to be reexamined for the more effective combat applications, such as they had in the old days when it really counted.

Ah see, here we are again with the notion that there is some sort of superiority in a more traditional approach.

Let me ask you a question; Do you believe that the best (technical skill and fighting ability) martial artists in the world are competitive sport fighters?

 

[lklawson]

I have no issue with TMAs incorporating Bjj into their curriculums, but they should really give credit where credit is due. This particular school claims that these techniques come from one of their kata, and it's been translated for the modern day. In actuality, they're techniques that come from Bjj, and while I have some issue with how those techniques are presented (the stuff he's doing after losing the back mount is.... interesting. Like seriously, just hook your legs to avoid getting tossed off), the execution wasn't awful in general.

I don't understand why such schools simply can't say that they went to a Bjj or MMA gym and learned ground fighting. Do they think that their methods would be looked down on if they incorporated a "sport" into their system? Again, I'm happy that they have chosen to teach their students ground fighting, I just don't understand why they need to hide where they're getting these techniques from.

I've got some old catch wrestling manuals that have techniques that look like BJJ and newaza. They pre-date Barton-Wright bringing Tani and Uyenishi. There are a bunch of fetchbuck's include locks that look just like jujutsu.

Maybe they're being honest?

Peace favor your sword,
Kirk

 

[Hanzou]

I've got some old catch wrestling manuals that have techniques that look like BJJ and newaza. They pre-date Barton-Wright bringing Tani and Uyenishi. There are a bunch of fetchbuck's include locks that look just like jujutsu.

Maybe they're being honest?

Peace favor your sword,
Kirk

Not surprising since Bjj has roots from Judo exponents who often fought/cross trained with catch wrestlers, and Lutre Livre which also has some catch aspects.

Bjj practitioners have never made an effort to hide those roots.