Why does MMA count as an own martial art now ?

[Gerry Seymour]

I practice Judo, it's definitely a combat sport. I also practice American Kenpo Karate, it is mostly art....forms, choreographed techniques, rituals etc (art). I don't really need a training partner to practice kenpo and don't need equipment to enhance my fitness. I can zone out and meditate on the art side of it for hours (the dance) (the imagination)....art is artistic expression. Sport is competitive application

Interesting. I've never viewed the word "art" in "martial art" as being related to artistic expression, because I've never learned anything remotely artistic in my training (even the forms I experienced in Karate decades ago weren't artistic). To me, it's more in line with the (antiquated) phrase: "the art and artistry of the thing". I actually wish a different term had been coined so many years ago, but I don't know what a better choice would have been.

 

[drop bear]

Interesting. I've never viewed the word "art" in "martial art" as being related to artistic expression, because I've never learned anything remotely artistic in my training (even the forms I experienced in Karate decades ago weren't artistic). To me, it's more in line with the (antiquated) phrase: "the art and artistry of the thing". I actually wish a different term had been coined so many years ago, but I don't know what a better choice would have been.

art1
ɑːt/
noun

1. 1.
   the expression or application of human creative skill and imagination, typically in a visual form such as painting or sculpture, producing works to be appreciated primarily for their beauty or emotional power.
   "the art of the Renaissance"
   synonyms: fine art, artwork, creative activity
   "he studied art"
2. 2.
   the various branches of creative activity, such as painting, music, literature, and dance.
   "the visual arts"

 

[Hanzou]

It can be argued that Judo and Kendo are sports in that their entire system is based upon competition rules. In other words, almost every Judo school out there is based on tournament rules. Very few are self defense-based, or revolve around street fighting like you'd see in a Bjj (usually Gracie-based) school.

For example, leg locks are completely nonexistent in modern Judo, to the point where Judokas don't learn them period. Why? Because of competition rules that don't allow them. Double Leg, Single Leg, and Guard takedowns have suffered a similar fate, and if you do them in a Judo dojo, you'll get chastised for it.

With that said, I'd put Judo's effectiveness as a martial system a cut above many MAs that claim that their art is "too deadly for sport".

 

[Gerry Seymour]

It can be argued that Judo and Kendo are sports in that their entire system is based upon competition rules. In other words, almost every Judo school out there is based on tournament rules. Very few are self defense-based, or revolve around street fighting like you'd see in a Bjj (usually Gracie-based) school.

For example, leg locks are completely nonexistent in modern Judo, to the point where Judokas don't learn them period. Why? Because of competition rules that don't allow them. Double Leg, Single Leg, and Guard takedowns have suffered a similar fate, and if you do them in a Judo dojo, you'll get chastised for it.

With that said, I'd put Judo's effectiveness as a martial system a cut above many MAs that claim that their art is "too deadly for sport".

Actually, the same could be said of some of the BJJ schools I've seen. I have a friend who teaches GJJ (as well as NGA), and he takes a self-defense approach. Some other schools have turned their attention almost wholly toward competition, and now more resemble the attitude I saw in my Judo classes. I wonder if it was much the same in Judo early on.

 

[Hanzou]

Actually, the same could be said of some of the BJJ schools I've seen. I have a friend who teaches GJJ (as well as NGA), and he takes a self-defense approach. Some other schools have turned their attention almost wholly toward competition, and now more resemble the attitude I saw in my Judo classes. I wonder if it was much the same in Judo early on.

Well there's a difference here. Bjj has pretty close proximity to MMA, there's the nogi component, and sport Bjj has a slightly more open rule set (for now). Those things will keep even sport Bjj from ending up like Judo.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

Well there's a difference here. Bjj has pretty close proximity to MMA, there's the nogi component, and sport Bjj has a slightly more open rule set (for now). Those things will keep even sport Bjj from ending up like Judo.

Let's hope BJJ keeps close to MMA (whatever that ends up being, long-term), and the rules don't progress like Judo's seem to have. I don't know the history, but I'd suspect that's part of the reason for the branching of BJJ from its Judo roots.

 

[Andrew Green]

Let's hope BJJ keeps close to MMA (whatever that ends up being, long-term), and the rules don't progress like Judo's seem to have. I don't know the history, but I'd suspect that's part of the reason for the branching of BJJ from its Judo roots.

I would suspect we will see a split. And in a sense I think we already are, which complicates the matter because we also have this idea that styles have names, and the name stays. When BJJ broke off it got a new name, when Sambo broke off it got a new name, when Judo broke from jujitsu it got a new name... This happened in other styles, we got tons of flavours of karate.

In BJJ there are schools that are very much MMA based, some that are very much sport BJJ based, some that are self-defence based. Some are all gi, some are all no-gi. Standards in rank are diverging.

It's all good though, there is room for all of those things. Including schools that try to do a little bit of everything. No "style" needs to stay unified and under a single set of guidelines and curriculum. As long as it keeps the core ideas, which are fighting to submission against a opponent trying to do the same thing to you it will remain an amazing style regardless of the schools particular focus.

And if IBJJF rules start going crazy, another organization will pop up. They already have, there is IBJJF, FILA, ABDCC, Grapplers Quest, etc.

 

[Ironbear24]

I recommend everyone take a judo class. Kenpo is brutal but judo is a different kind of brutal. It is a very humbling experience to be checked into the floor by a 120 poind woman while you are 205 pound man.

 

[Tez3]

I recommend everyone take a judo class. Kenpo is brutal but judo is a different kind of brutal. It is a very humbling experience to be checked into the floor by a 120 poind woman while you are 205 pound man.

Not if you are the 120 pound woman!

 

[Gerry Seymour]

I recommend everyone take a judo class. Kenpo is brutal but judo is a different kind of brutal. It is a very humbling experience to be checked into the floor by a 120 poind woman while you are 205 pound man.

I had that experience, in a different way. I was a teen when I took Judo, and had my *** handed to me on a regular basis by a woman who was proably in her late 50's. Back then, that was an "old woman" to me, and she kicked my butt every time we hit the mats.

 

[Hanzou]

Let's hope BJJ keeps close to MMA (whatever that ends up being, long-term), and the rules don't progress like Judo's seem to have. I don't know the history, but I'd suspect that's part of the reason for the branching of BJJ from its Judo roots.

It will because Bjj is pretty core to MMA fighting. No one steps into MMA without significant Bjj training, and within that training you have to learn how to deal with striking while grappling. There's simply no way around it.

I recommend everyone take a judo class. Kenpo is brutal but judo is a different kind of brutal. It is a very humbling experience to be checked into the floor by a 120 poind woman while you are 205 pound man.

Meh. Judo is fantastic, but their dumb rules are destroying the art.

 

[dmsaint]

My Judo instructor is a chiropractor for a reason...dojo and Dr office are connected. I don't think Kenpo is brutal. But I definitely think it is theoretically brutal. I love the art, don't get me wrong, but the way it's trained is so cerebral...even sparring in Kenpo isn't brutal on the level of a judo match or other combat sports like boxing, kickboxing, mma etc savate for sure....

 

[Ironbear24]

My Judo instructor is a chiropractor for a reason...dojo and Dr office are connected. I don't think Kenpo is brutal. But I definitely think it is theoretically brutal. I love the art, don't get me wrong, but the way it's trained is so cerebral...even sparring in Kenpo isn't brutal on the level of a judo match or other combat sports like boxing, kickboxing, mma etc savate for sure....

It really depends on your dojo that had the kenpo training at. Mine was pretty brutal and focused on full contact sparring at least once a week. While the other two days focused on ground mechanics and form/technique.

 

[Ironbear24]

It will because Bjj is pretty core to MMA fighting. No one steps into MMA without significant Bjj training, and within that training you have to learn how to deal with striking while grappling. There's simply no way around it.

There are plenty of fighters who don't train in it. Everyone does train how to deal with grappling but not all of that is bjj. Hell even marines with their basic training seem to have been able to deal with popular ufc fighters.

 

[Tez3]

There are plenty of fighters who don't train in it. Everyone does train how to deal with grappling but not all of that is bjj. Hell even marines with their basic training seem to have been able to deal with popular ufc fighters.

I know an ex Royal Marine Commando who is a pretty good MMA fighter, he was a PTI as well so had all bases covered lol. However going on deployments didn't do his fighting career a lot of good. He was on TUF but after he'd left that he was deployed to Afghan a couple of times.
Incidentally if anyone remembers a poster we had on here, a so called female telling us about her fights etc claiming to train at a club here which organised a really dangerous fight night where 'she' was injured, the chap from that club, Dave Jackson, who came on here to tell us it was all a figment of that posters fevered imagination etc was the assistant coach to Bisping on that TUF. He's a good bloke.
There you go a bit of trivia for you.

 

[Steve]

Who is this a reply to? For most folks I know, we differentiate between "art" and "sport" with a hazy grey area of overlap between. Judo falls in both categories, as does Kendo. Some styles (or, more accurately, some schools) are all sport. Some are all art. Some are a mix. MMA isn't an art in my mind, because it's not a single style. Frankly, MMA is a style of competition, which includes several different martial arts/martial sports.

I was responding to dmsaint.

I pretty much agree with your post. I would further differentiate MMA from either a sport or an art. It's kind of both, but really, MMA refers to a specific rule set. In other words, MMA is trained specifically for success in a particular sport with specific rules. This makes it more like Kendo than Judo. More like boxing than BJJ or Tae Kwon Do.

 

[Steve]

Let's hope BJJ keeps close to MMA (whatever that ends up being, long-term), and the rules don't progress like Judo's seem to have. I don't know the history, but I'd suspect that's part of the reason for the branching of BJJ from its Judo roots.

BJJ is getting weird. At least, the IBJJF is getting fully as wonky as Judo.

But, fortunately, anything that works on the ground is BJJ. AND, there are always other forms of competition, from national competitions like the ADCC to sub only competitions like Metamoris. There are all kinds of different venues and rule sets to suit any sensibility.

 

[Steve]

I would suspect we will see a split. And in a sense I think we already are, which complicates the matter because we also have this idea that styles have names, and the name stays. When BJJ broke off it got a new name, when Sambo broke off it got a new name, when Judo broke from jujitsu it got a new name... This happened in other styles, we got tons of flavours of karate.

In BJJ there are schools that are very much MMA based, some that are very much sport BJJ based, some that are self-defence based. Some are all gi, some are all no-gi. Standards in rank are diverging.

It's all good though, there is room for all of those things. Including schools that try to do a little bit of everything. No "style" needs to stay unified and under a single set of guidelines and curriculum. As long as it keeps the core ideas, which are fighting to submission against a opponent trying to do the same thing to you it will remain an amazing style regardless of the schools particular focus.

And if IBJJF rules start going crazy, another organization will pop up. They already have, there is IBJJF, FILA, ABDCC, Grapplers Quest, etc.

Agree with everything, but would point out that most schools are both gi and no-gi. The ALL gi or ALL no-gi are pretty rare. 10th Planet is the only ALL NOGI affiliation I know of that purports to be BJJ. Typically, they will allege to be CACC wrestling if they roll NOGI (which, truly, is just BJJ because anything that works on the ground is BJJ. )

 

[Hanzou]

There are plenty of fighters who don't train in it.

Yeah? Name some.

 

[Ironbear24]

Yeah? Name some.

Damn it Hanzou. Making me do homework and ****. Brb.