Why does MMA count as an own martial art now ?

[drop bear]

I've got a great idea. Let's get the thread back on topic. The origins of BJJ are interesting, and the relationship between BJJ and the various threads of japanese jujutsu is loads of fun, but has no bearing on the topic at hand.

It really isn't interesting at all.

Let's watch Jules the jackle really hurt himself.

 

[drop bear]

You seriously make me want to sail down to Perth for a few weeks. I mean that. I love TSD, or TSD under any other name... As much as I love Okinawan "Te" under any name.
I have been to NSW, and QL so many times but I have never been further west into Oz than Alice Springs, back before they renamed Ayers Rock to Uluru in 2002 under a reversal of the 1993 dual name policy. Maybe some day I will get to pet some Perth wallabies.

If you get to qld look up Kudo if you want to get your karate with takedowns headbutts and groin kicks.

Every single one of them is a kill monster. You will love it.

 

[TSDTexan]

It really isn't interesting at all.

Let's watch Jules the jackle really hurt himself.

Ouch... Yep... Last night, minutes before bed.. On facebook I saw a some Russian K1 llushin low kick to the thigh/knee get checked bone on bone... The kicker's leg turned into floppy rubber and he tried to stand after the kick, but it folded... Had nightmares.


Here is the link..
https://m.facebook.com/story.php?story_fbid=968866219817853&id=143826492321834&refid=12&__tn__=H

 

[TSDTexan]

If you get to qld look up Kudo if you want to get your karate with takedowns headbutts and groin kicks.

Every single one of them is a kill monster. You will love it.

Kudo... Is that Karate + Judo?

 

[drop bear]

Kudo... Is that Karate + Judo?

Kind of.

 

[Chris Parker]

Dude, seriously?

I had a full-on apocalyptic catastrophe nightmare, last night, the first in a long time, so I can waste a little time persuading you-it's a matter of simple history, really:

Maeda Mitsuyo taught the Gracies judo-Kodokan judo. Pre-war judo, that was sometimes called Kano jujutsu. While there's some argument that there were men who studied with Takeda Sokaku (Daito ryu) among the earlier members of the Kodokan, there's no evidence at all that Maeda was one of those.
Takeda kept extensive records of those who studied Daito ryu-Maeda's name isn't in there.
There is no ground fighting per se in Daito ryu, though its principles can be used in ground fighting.

Mitsuyo Maeda - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

BJJ comes from judo, and whatever else the Gracie's grafted on afterwards: a little boxing, a little catch wrestling,Helio Gracie's inventions of different angles and transitions, but it's still Basically Just Judo

Wherever you got this information from, that BJJ comes from Daito ryu, is just wrong.

As are you.

Now, to be fair to TSDTexan, Elder, his theory/belief on Daito Ryu and it's relationship to BJJ isn't quite what you're suggesting there… although what you're suggesting is eminently more plausible…

His actual assertion is that Daito Ryu was one of the foundations of Takenouchi Ryu (which, of course, it wasn't)… and that Kano studied Takenouchi Ryu (which he didn't)… and that Kodokan Judo then gave rise to Kosen Judo, which Maeda brought to Brazil (leaving off the annoying fact that Kosen Judo, as a rule-set, rather than a subset of skills, wasn't formulated until nearly a decade after Maeda left Japan)… therefore, what Maeda taught is based in Daito Ryu, because… apparently it's all in Takenouchi Ryu… which has no bearing on Judo at all…

Er… did we follow all of that…?

Part A. Your statement regarding where: I got my information being wrong... Perfectly good statement, in the sense that it is clear that you are asserting that this information is incorrect.

Sure. But, of course, where you did get your information was still wrong…

Part B.
Your statement "as are you" is problematic in the least. You are being pretty vague, and this statement requires the reader to make guesses as to the meaning.

Really? I didn't think it was that vague… "(the information) is wrong. As are you". Pretty clear to me…

Are you implying that "TsdTexan is just wrong" in some sort of personal sense? Gosh, I hope not.

Nope, just completely incorrect in your assessment of historical facts and reality…

Surely, you wouldn't need to use an ad hominem attack, after you clearly destroyed what you think is TsdTexan's position.

Man, it wasn't a personal attack… it was an observation of you not being right… pretty simple.

Though I will admit the Maeda-Takada is a great strawman. Argument. It is a verifiable fact, as Takeda kept meticulous records as to who attended his seminars and classes, and Yes, Maeda probably isn't listed. I never even bothered to look or inquire.

Ha, kay… not sure why you're continuing to go over the aspect you say you didn't believe in the first place…

The point is completely bogus because it is not something I brought to bear in supporting my position. Namely that the art form that came to be known as DRAJJ had a role in the formation of what would come to be called BJJ.

Nowhere at anytime ever... Not even once have I ever said Maeda was a student of Takeda.

No, you didn't… of course, the idea that "the art form that came to be known as DRAJJ had a role in the formation of what would come to be called BJJ" was still wrong… ha!

So if you would like to join in the discussion already in progress, and argue against my position, PLEASE argue against what was actually said by me, instead of things I NEVER said.

Honestly, this is fair, and I agree.

If you are willing to put words into TsdTexan's mouth, so you can defeat such an expressed view... We have no reasonable basis of conversation here on this topic.

Sure… on that topic, can you answer my questions about your understanding and experience with Takenouchi Ryu and Daito Ryu? The ones detailing the ne-waza in Daito Ryu? And what you meant by a "pure art" in regards to Daito Ryu? I mean… without you engaging in answers, we don't have much of a basis for conversation here…

I would like to enjoy friendly martial arts talk with you. But let us remain reasonable fellows and not put words in each others mouth like this... Please?

Sure.

I've got a great idea. Let's get the thread back on topic. The origins of BJJ are interesting, and the relationship between BJJ and the various threads of japanese jujutsu is loads of fun, but has no bearing on the topic at hand.

Eh, the topic was dead on arrival, Steve… it was basically "How can we call MMA a martial art, cause I don't like it!" from the OP… not sure there's any real ground left to cover on it…

Did Kano create the entire Kodakan curriculum by himself in a vacuum? Yes or No
Did Kano ever bring in outsiders to teach new material to his school? Yes or No

In a vacuum? No. By himself? Well… in a very real way, yes. Did he ever bring outsiders in? Yep. Does that mean that they had any real part in "creating" Judo? No, not really. In a real sense, Kano WAS Judo. It was simply what he felt should be there.

If anything, Kano was far more more jujutsu editor for his school curriculm than inventor of new techniques for his school.

Er… not quite sure you get how things went there… cause… well… no.

I mean… you do get that it's not about "inventing techniques", yeah?

Even the term Judo itself pre-existed Kano's own art.

Kinda. There is a reference using the term "柔道" in the Jikishinkage Ryu some 150 years prior to Kano… however, it's really not related to Judo (Kodokan/Kano-ha) at all. You know that there's the term "剣道" in Musashi's writings that have nothing at all to do with "Kendo", yeah? What I'm getting at is that usage of similar terminology doesn't necessarily mean anything when it comes to indicating a relationship between them…

The point of contention between Chris and Myself, is on hold, with His position not being further challenged by me while I am doing research.

Yeah, again… good luck with that…

I notice that you have not acknowledged the truth, of the fact, that you used a strawman attack against my position, and were called on it.

No, he made a logical assumption about what you most likely were referring to (by looking at the most plausible and logical way your assertion could have taken place)…

This was called to your attention, because, again this wasn't about my main point... the one that was offered to watergal (bjj/drjj) being right or wrong. This was about your attacking a position, I never held, and declaring my position wrong because of that point.

Actually, the position you held (and, seemingly, continue to hold) is wrong… Elder didn't correctly assess where your position came from… honestly, understandably… but that's it.

I hear the silence... and the changing of the attack.

Er… huh?

But, this is my last post re:drajj and bjj on this thread. In other words, you can have the last word about it, because I am not continuing to argue about the subject, I will listen to your answers to my questions without response. But try and stay on topic for the thread please. I know I am going to try to do so.

Sure. Oh, by the way, feel free to start a thread on the topic if you want… bringing it up in other threads is just going to have us retread the same ground again…

 

[drop bear]

Here is Jules the jackal getting bashed.

 

[TSDTexan]

If you get to qld look up Kudo if you want to get your karate with takedowns headbutts and groin kicks.

Every single one of them is a kill monster. You will love it.

This is kudo

 

[Tez3]

It's also good old fashioned karate, there's still a fair few who do it that way.

 

[elder999]

Now, to be fair to TSDTexan, Elder, his theory/belief on Daito Ryu and it's relationship to BJJ isn't quite what you're suggesting there… although what you're suggesting is eminently more plausible…

His actual assertion is that Daito Ryu was one of the foundations of Takenouchi Ryu (which, of course, it wasn't)… and that Kano studied Takenouchi Ryu (which he didn't)… and that Kodokan Judo then gave rise to Kosen Judo, which Maeda brought to Brazil (leaving off the annoying fact that Kosen Judo, as a rule-set, rather than a subset of skills, wasn't formulated until nearly a decade after Maeda left Japan)… therefore, what Maeda taught is based in Daito Ryu, because… apparently it's all in Takenouchi Ryu… which has no bearing on Judo at all…

Er… did we follow all of that…?

…

Yeah

It's even worse than I thought.

 

[Hanzou]

If you get to qld look up Kudo if you want to get your karate with takedowns headbutts and groin kicks.

Every single one of them is a kill monster. You will love it.

At this point, its better just to go to a MMA school. Why waste time looking for a needle in a haystack when there's a legit MMA school on just about every corner in the industrialized world?

Maybe 20 years ago, doing Kudo would be a solid option, but MMA simply does that sort of thing better.

 

[drop bear]

At this point, its better just to go to a MMA school. Why waste time looking for a needle in a haystack when there's a legit MMA school on just about every corner in the industrialized world?

Maybe 20 years ago, doing Kudo would be a solid option, but MMA simply does that sort of thing better.

Depends. The guys in qld are legit. So if you are desperate to train with a GI on and throw head kicks then it is a viable option.

It is more of a case of what floats your boat there rather than one being fundamentally better.

BLACK DRAGON KAI | Home

 

[TSDTexan]

Depends. The guys in qld are legit. So if you are desperate to train with a GI on and throw head kicks then it is a viable option.

It is more of a case of what floats your boat there rather than one being fundamentally better.

BLACK DRAGON KAI | Home

Hehe. I don't think fashion has a great bearing on combative sport. Or even free sparing/ fight simulation. I do think the introduction of the GI (dobok) is a good thing. I think it is preferable to fight in a GI as opposed a kimono.

I do like traditional attire.

 

[Tez3]

Hehe. I don't think fashion has a great bearing on combative sport. Or even free sparing/ fight simulation. I do think the introduction of the GI (dobok) is a good thing. I think it is preferable to fight in a GI as opposed a kimono.

I do like traditional attire.

What has fashion got to do with anything, drop bear didn't say anything about it. In BJJ a kimono is a gi.

 

[Tony Dismukes]

You have told me so. And I have acknowledged that you have told me so. I am not yet persuaded on the matter, and I suspect that I won't be for a while.

You're "agnostic" on the topic? How does that work? You don't know for sure, so you won't listen to someone who does?

I can't seem to find it at the moment, but didn't TSDTexan have a post at some point where he linked to his source for his ... unusual ideas about the history of DRJJ?

If TSDTexan is doing what he says he is - doing research to find evidence for Chris's explanation of the relevant history vs his own previous ideas before deciding which is correct - then I have to say he's doing the right thing. He started out by accepting the word of someone who claimed to be knowledgeable about the history of classical Japanese martial arts. Now he's encountered someone else (Chris) who claims to be knowledgeable about the same field telling him his previous information is all wrong. As it so happens, Chris is correct, but without a better grounding in the field TSDTexan has no way of knowing that. If he just takes Chris's word for it based on Chris's claims of expertise then he's in the same boat he was before - taking the word of a self-proclaimed "expert" with no sources to back it up.

If TSDTexan does his research well, he will discover that Chris is correct. That will a) give him more background to judge such claims in the future and b) give him more reason to trust Chris's word on other matters.

It doesn't make things easy that the world of martial arts is filled with historical misinformation. It doesn't just come from unqualified charlatans either. Lots of well-respected, very high-ranked instructors have \been responsible for spreading unsubstantiated myths and wishful thinking, heavily distorted spin, and downright lies as the "official" history of their arts. It's hard to blame someone who falls into the trap of buying into some of these stories.

 

[drop bear]

Hehe. I don't think fashion has a great bearing on combative sport. Or even free sparing/ fight simulation. I do think the introduction of the GI (dobok) is a good thing. I think it is preferable to fight in a GI as opposed a kimono.

I do like traditional attire.

I have a spiderman licra suit for sparring. Fashion is vital.

 

[Tez3]

I have a spiderman licra suit for sparring. Fashion is vital.

 

[TSDTexan]

I have a spiderman licra suit for sparring. Fashion is vital.

Scary visuals tho... Especially when you rip the crotch doing high roundhouse kicks.

 

[Ariyan Parraya]

isn't different with free brawling (^^)> ithink...

 

[Sub Zero]

I have a spiderman licra suit for sparring. Fashion is vital.

Nice I got a Green and White Ranger one. Thinking about getting another Green Ranger rashie but with The Dragon Shield and short sleeved.