Why does MMA count as an own martial art now ?

[Ironbear24]

Yes, that you would. You would also be doing so by training wrestling. There's no need to try and force a dichotomy here where one does not exist.

Unfortunately dichotomy does exist here and even you are using it yourself. For example the apparent need to claim if someone is training how to deal with grappling then they are training bjj even though their style maybe the furthest thing from it.

 

[Steve]

Riiight because shoot wrestling, sambo, ninjutsu and Judo have no grappling that works. Its very clear I'm talking to biased people here.

Hey now! I never said "shoot wrestling, sambo... or judo have no grappling that works." Quite the opposite. I know that they have stuff that works. What I'm saying is, "if it is grappling and it works, it's BJJ." If something works in Judo, it is folded into BJJ. If something works in sambo, any kind of wrestling (shoot, folk, CACC), BJJ welcomes it. BJJ isn't confined to a canon of techniques, or a single ruleset. BJJ as a style is very practical. If it is grappling and it works, it is incorporated.

I did actually laugh out loud that you chose to include ninjutsu in with wrestling, sambo and judo. That was a real "one of these things doesn't belong" moment. I've never seen any ninjutsu grappling that isn't a staged demo or compliant partner exercise. Doesn't mean it doesn't exist or work, but as far as I'm concerned, it's like Sasquatch. People swear they've seen it, but I'm not completely convinced.

 

[Ironbear24]

Hey now! I never said "shoot wrestling, sambo... or judo have no grappling that works." Quite the opposite. I know that they have stuff that works. What I'm saying is, "if it is grappling and it works, it's BJJ." If something works in Judo, it is folded into BJJ. If something works in sambo, any kind of wrestling (shoot, folk, CACC), BJJ welcomes it. BJJ isn't confined to a canon of techniques, or a single ruleset. BJJ as a style is very practical. If it is grappling and it works, it is incorporated.

I did actually laugh out loud that you chose to include ninjutsu in with wrestling, sambo and judo. That was a real "one of these things doesn't belong" moment. I've never seen any ninjutsu grappling that isn't a staged demo or compliant partner exercise. Doesn't mean it doesn't exist or work, but as far as I'm concerned, it's like Sasquatch. People swear they've seen it, but I'm not completely convinced.

You can thank Ashida Kim and other "entertainers" for that, many of the serious places do practice lots of it rather than silly gymnastics.

My question is if bjj is "eclectic" why does it have practically no standing experience? Many bjj places I visit claim to be Street and competition bjj yet all I have seen them do is begin the match on the ground. Like you see wrestlers do, there is no real fight that is going to start that way.

I will admit I have only been to about two places though, so that could be coincidental.

 

[Steve]

Unfortunately dichotomy does exist here and even you are using it yourself. For example the apparent need to claim if someone is training how to deal with grappling then they are training bjj even though their style maybe the furthest thing from it.

If you're referring to me, I think you're mistaken, and going about it from the absolute wrong direction.

f you're training BJJ, you're training a little of everything. You will see the technique in BJJ influenced by wrestling, sambo, judo, and anything else that works. Heck, since Aikido is a current, hot topic, I can think of at least one very skilled BJJ black belt who also has a black belt in Aikido and has synthesized a lot of what he's learned from aikido to inform his BJJ. So, you could even say that if you're training BJJ in his school, you're training Aikido (and Judo).

If you're training something else, and it's the furthest thing from BJJ, I think you might be in trouble... that is, if you want it to work. BJJ, sambo, judo, and wrestling are all close cousins. There is a lot of overlap, and a lot of cross pollination. If it's too far are away from BJJ, it's also a long way from just about every other style of grappling that has a chance of functioning as designed.

 

[Hanzou]

You can thank Ashida Kim and other "entertainers" for that, many of the serious places do practice lots of it rather than silly gymnastics.

My question is if bjj is "eclectic" why does it have practically no standing experience? Many bjj places I visit claim to be Street and competition bjj yet all I have seen them do is begin the match on the ground. Like you see wrestlers do, there is no real fight that is going to start that way.

I will admit I have only been to about two places though, so that could be coincidental.

Yeah, you should check out old school Bjj from the Gracie, Machado, or Fadda lineages. There's lots of stand up in those systems.

And yeah, as a beginner you tend to start from the ground when you're rolling. It minimizes injury and allows you to work directly on groundwork. However, you can always request to start from a standing position.

As for Ninjutsu, yeah it doesn't really belong with Judo, Bjj, Sambo, and wrestling.

 

[Steve]

You can thank Ashida Kim and other "entertainers" for that, many of the serious places do practice lots of it rather than silly gymnastics.

My question is if bjj is "eclectic" why does it have practically no standing experience? Many bjj places I visit claim to be Street and competition bjj yet all I have seen them do is begin the match on the ground. Like you see wrestlers do, there is no real fight that is going to start that way.

I will admit I have only been to about two places though, so that could be coincidental.

I think you answered your own question at the end there. Every match in every BJJ competition, regardless of ruleset, starts standing.

Regarding the ninja thing, I truly have no idea. It's something I hear a lot of people talk about, but as I said, it's like Bigfoot. Some people insist it's real, but I've seen no evidence of it beyond some enthusiastic rhetoric. I've never trained Sambo, but I can see evidence of it's efficacy if I take just a few minutes to look for it. Shiu Jao is a very foreign way of grappling to me, but I can look at it and it makes sense. Based upon what I know about how people move, and the mechanics of grappling, I get it. It's a different system, but I've no doubt that it can work.

If I look for effective ninja grappling, I find little to distinguish Ashida Kim from anyone else. Once again, doesn't mean it doesn't exist. Just saying I've never seen it or any evidence of it.

 

[drop bear]

Hey now! I never said "shoot wrestling, sambo... or judo have no grappling that works." Quite the opposite. I know that they have stuff that works. What I'm saying is, "if it is grappling and it works, it's BJJ." If something works in Judo, it is folded into BJJ. If something works in sambo, any kind of wrestling (shoot, folk, CACC), BJJ welcomes it. BJJ isn't confined to a canon of techniques, or a single ruleset. BJJ as a style is very practical. If it is grappling and it works, it is incorporated.

I did actually laugh out loud that you chose to include ninjutsu in with wrestling, sambo and judo. That was a real "one of these things doesn't belong" moment. I've never seen any ninjutsu grappling that isn't a staged demo or compliant partner exercise. Doesn't mean it doesn't exist or work, but as far as I'm concerned, it's like Sasquatch. People swear they've seen it, but I'm not completely convinced.

If it is grappling and it works it is mma. For exactly the same reason.

Actually there are elements of grappling that are almost mma specific like striking and working off a wall.

 

[Steve]

If it is grappling and it works it is mma. For exactly the same reason.

Actually there are elements of grappling that are almost mma specific like striking and working off a wall.

Yeah, there are some differences. But the mindset is the same. Which, I think, is why BJJ and MMA are so commonly associated with each other. I was working a tournament just this weekend, and I'd say about 30% of the schools represented were "MMA" or "combat" schools, and not just BJJ.

 

[Skullpunch]

For example the apparent need to claim if someone is training how to deal with grappling then they are training bjj even though their style maybe the furthest thing from it.

You're making this up. What I claimed was that if someone is training at a camp like American Top Team they're likely doing bjj everyday. Seriously, you have to not have any idea who American Top Team is to even begin to try and deny that.

 

[Chris Parker]

While Bjj came from Judo there's some pretty significant differences between the two. Most of those differences stem from a fundamental difference in purpose and philosophy. Judo is heavily geared towards sport while Bjj is heavily geared towards street fighting and self defense. In essence, you could argue that Bjj is what Judo would have turned into if Kano was more interested in beating the crap out of people than creating a recreational sport.

Wow. Well, that's a heavily biased and largely inaccurate reading of many aspects… in fact, I'd say that you could argue that only if you were blind to reality, history, and, well, anything that didn't show your favoured pastime as the most incredible art that ever existed…

My point is that no, BJJ is not "heavily geared towards street fighting and self defence"… while it can be useful there, it simply isn't geared in that fashion, and thinking it is is only evidence of not having any clue as to either context… and while Kano Sensei's ideal was not the basic, minor, and amateurish desire to "beat the crap out of people", it was also not to "create a recreational sport".

Hey now! I never said "shoot wrestling, sambo... or judo have no grappling that works." Quite the opposite. I know that they have stuff that works. What I'm saying is, "if it is grappling and it works, it's BJJ." If something works in Judo, it is folded into BJJ. If something works in sambo, any kind of wrestling (shoot, folk, CACC), BJJ welcomes it. BJJ isn't confined to a canon of techniques, or a single ruleset. BJJ as a style is very practical. If it is grappling and it works, it is incorporated.

No. The closest you can say is that, if it's a grappling action, it can potentially be incorporated into BJJ, but won't necessarily be.

Frankly, you have a very limited perspective on what grappling is, and what defines "works".

I did actually laugh out loud that you chose to include ninjutsu in with wrestling, sambo and judo. That was a real "one of these things doesn't belong" moment. I've never seen any ninjutsu grappling that isn't a staged demo or compliant partner exercise. Doesn't mean it doesn't exist or work, but as far as I'm concerned, it's like Sasquatch. People swear they've seen it, but I'm not completely convinced.

Bluntly, your opinion, being based on being thoroughly clueless about the actual subject itself (to be clear, I'm referring to ninjutsu and it's approach to grappling here), doesn't amount to much, Steve. I will say, though, that this level of art bashing is something you normally tell others to knock off… and this is the first of a few comments you make here.

If you're referring to me, I think you're mistaken, and going about it from the absolute wrong direction.

f you're training BJJ, you're training a little of everything. You will see the technique in BJJ influenced by wrestling, sambo, judo, and anything else that works. Heck, since Aikido is a current, hot topic, I can think of at least one very skilled BJJ black belt who also has a black belt in Aikido and has synthesized a lot of what he's learned from aikido to inform his BJJ. So, you could even say that if you're training BJJ in his school, you're training Aikido (and Judo).

No. To pretty much all of that. If you're training BJJ, you're training BJJ. The particular mechanical method might have originally been transported from another methodology (albeit highly similar in many respects, from the list you give), but it becomes BJJ once incorporated into BJJ. I would also argue pretty strongly that, in the example school you mention, when you're training BJJ, you're only training BJJ… his approach will undoubtedly be influenced by his Aikido, but to say that you'd be training Aikido at the same time is to completely misunderstand what makes each art what it is, what Aikido is, what separates it from BJJ, and more.

If you're training something else, and it's the furthest thing from BJJ, I think you might be in trouble... that is, if you want it to work. BJJ, sambo, judo, and wrestling are all close cousins. There is a lot of overlap, and a lot of cross pollination. If it's too far are away from BJJ, it's also a long way from just about every other style of grappling that has a chance of functioning as designed.

You really need to come to some definition of "work" here… there's plenty of approaches, methods, and more that "work" in their context, but aren't really compatible with BJJ (or similar) at all. After all, the various systems you mention are, as you said, "close cousins"… with very similar contexts, applications, training methodologies, and so on. It's natural to expect a fair amount of cross-pollination and overlap in their approaches… but to then say that's the only thing that "works" is to show a great lack of appreciation for anything that doesn't match your small area of understanding.

By the way, it's ideas like this that have garnered you and others such nicknames as the "BJJ mafia"… if you were wondering.

As for Ninjutsu, yeah it doesn't really belong with Judo, Bjj, Sambo, and wrestling.

It's not meant to… but not for the reasons you're thinking.

I think you answered your own question at the end there. Every match in every BJJ competition, regardless of ruleset, starts standing.

Bjj Eastern Europe – Vinny Magalhaes: ‘BJJ Became a Weird Game with Pussified Rules’

"The direction that sport BJJ is going is worrying many. Nowadays modern Ju-Jitsu is guard centric and most competitors don’t even bother with takedowns. They just pull guard and aim to sweep from the guard. BJJ has become more of a game than a combat system."

Oh… and watch the video at the end… just saying…

Regarding the ninja thing, I truly have no idea. It's something I hear a lot of people talk about, but as I said, it's like Bigfoot. Some people insist it's real, but I've seen no evidence of it beyond some enthusiastic rhetoric. I've never trained Sambo, but I can see evidence of it's efficacy if I take just a few minutes to look for it. Shiu Jao is a very foreign way of grappling to me, but I can look at it and it makes sense. Based upon what I know about how people move, and the mechanics of grappling, I get it. It's a different system, but I've no doubt that it can work.

Frankly, Steve, you aren't in any position to offer any qualified opinion. Mainly as you then follow up with this:

If I look for effective ninja grappling, I find little to distinguish Ashida Kim from anyone else. Once again, doesn't mean it doesn't exist. Just saying I've never seen it or any evidence of it.

What that tells me is that you haven't really seen anything genuine… or, at least, not recognised what you were seeing. So I'm going to break things down for you a bit.

"Grappling" does not mean "ground fighting". It also does not mean "submission wrestling", or anything similar. Those are some aspects of the entire concept of grappling, but hardly the definitive nor exhaustive definition of the word.

Martial arts are not their techniques (although you seem to be equating techniques to "what works")… but, if you want to go that route, here you go:

What is called a "Kimura" in BJJ is called a Gyaku Oni Kudaki with us.
What is called an Arm-Bar is called a Muso Dori with us.
What is called a "whizzer" is called a Musha Dori with us.
What is called a "goose-neck" is called a Take Ori with us.
What is called a "Overhand Wrist Lock" is called an Oni Kudaki with us.
Throws in Ninjutsu include many of the same ones found in Judo (albeit sometimes done slightly differently, due to differing contexts), such as Seoi Nage, Gyaku Seoi Nage, Katate Nage, Kata Guruma, Koshi Nage, Ippon Seoi Nage, Uchimata (O-uchi Gari), Uchigake, Osoto Gari, Osoto Gake, O Guruma, Tomoe Nage, Yoko Nagare, Tai Otoshi, Morote Gari, and many, many more. In fact, I recently went through a list of our throws… came up with about 42 (compared with Judo's 64, for the record), with many having a Judo equivalent if not basically being exactly the same).
Chokes include gi-chokes (Hon Jime, Gyaku Jime, Osae Shime, Gyaku Osae Jime, and more), and chokes that don't involve the gi (sankaku jime, basically a RNC, kata-hagai jime, and more).
Body holds/chokes include Hagai Jime (full nelson), Do Jime/Karada Jime (a variety of bear hugs), and more.

From each of these techniques there are a number of counters and escapes as well… in addition to a range of methods to apply these techniques against striking attacks, or weapon attacks (in different forms).

So here's my point. We have (largely) the same techniques… however, we do them all standing. We don't focus on the ground much at all. It's a very minor aspect in our context, honestly. We also don't give a damn about competition… it's really the opposite of what we do. As a result, our training methodologies aren't focused around the same context as yours. That will naturally lead in a different direction… sometimes with a minor deviation, sometimes a little more dramatically… but that doesn't mean that what we do isn't "grappling"… nor that it doesn't "work"… it's just not what you do.

I will say, though, that if you're only looking at ground fighting as your definition of "grappling" (which certainly seems to be the prevailing, albeit inaccurate, interpretation), then we don't have anything like it. There is nothing in any of our traditional methods that deals in ground fighting, especially the way it's done in Judo and BJJ… much of the videos you might have seen that way are attempts to apply some principles and ideas in a different context, which is not always understood. I offer no excuses for that, and am as against it as you guys are… personally, I feel that if something isn't understood, it shouldn't be presented as if it is.

 

[Hanzou]

Wow. Well, that's a heavily biased and largely inaccurate reading of many aspects… in fact, I'd say that you could argue that only if you were blind to reality, history, and, well, anything that didn't show your favoured pastime as the most incredible art that ever existed…

My point is that no, BJJ is not "heavily geared towards street fighting and self defense"… while it can be useful there, it simply isn't geared in that fashion, and thinking it is is only evidence of not having any clue as to either context… and while Kano Sensei's ideal was not the basic, minor, and amateurish desire to "beat the crap out of people", it was also not to "create a recreational sport".

Uh, that's exactly what it's geared towards. The methodology behind the system is to take an opponent to the ground and control them from there. While on the ground, their advantages are nullified while yours are enhanced if you are trained from that range of fighting. That methodology has been proven to be effective in a variety of context over the course of several decades, and several MAs have adopted it because of its proven effectiveness.

I'm curious as to why you think that viewpoint is blind to reality, history, etc. when we have examples of people using Bjj to defend themselves, the style being a mainstay in combat sports, it being included in various law enforcement and self defense systems, and the creators themselves being known as some of the toughest fighters around. Is there some hidden history that you're privy to that Bjj's creators, practitioners, and MA historians are unaware of?

As for Judo, there's nothing biased about my perspective. Judo is a system that is heavily controlled by its competitive side, and (IMO) the art itself has suffered because of it. The breadth of practical application simply isn't in Judo while its all over Bjj, because Judo simply sees no purpose for it. Why? Because it almost exclusively views itself as a sport instead of a self defense system. A prime example is Bjj's near complete adoption of striking, leg locks, wrestling takedowns, and no-gi grappling into standard practice. You're simply not going to see any of that in modern Judo practice and that's why you're seeing so many Judoka cross train in Bjj.

 

[Hanzou]

I will say, though, that if you're only looking at ground fighting as your definition of "grappling" (which certainly seems to be the prevailing, albeit inaccurate, interpretation), then we don't have anything like it. There is nothing in any of our traditional methods that deals in ground fighting, especially the way it's done in Judo and BJJ… much of the videos you might have seen that way are attempts to apply some principles and ideas in a different context, which is not always understood. I offer no excuses for that, and am as against it as you guys are… personally, I feel that if something isn't understood, it shouldn't be presented as if it is.

Agreed.

 

[Brian R. VanCise]

I have often said a really nice "eye opening" experience is for BJJ guys to train with Budo Taijutsu or FMA guys and vice versa. Some cross over and a different perspective to be gained by each! It is a big world out there and if you define what you do as only a certain area you may just not be able to deal with all the variables that can come into play in a "real world" personal protection situation! Broaden your minds folks and it will only make you a better martial practitioner!!!

 

[Hanzou]

I don't agree with the notion that cross training in Ninjutsu would be beneficial for a student of Bjj. A bjj practicioner would be better served finding styles that are similar to the general mindset of Bjj.

Boxing would be a far superior alternative for example.

 

[Brian R. VanCise]

Well that comes from a pretty limited perspective Hanzou. A BJJ practitioner working in Budo Taijutsu would be exposed to extensive options for dealing with weapons and more. Heck I was showing a BJJ instructor awhile ago a counter to a hip throw that is from Budo Taijutsu that works like a charm. If you ever make it to Vegas I will be happy to show you. Like wise I have opened many a Budo Taijutsu practitioners eyes to the effectiveness of BJJ!

 

[Brian R. VanCise]

I will say that every BJJ practitioner that I know who trains in the FMA absolutely loves it! Particularly the heavy stick or knife sparring. They all love learning how to utilize a knife and the skill sets and mind sets that this brings out in them.

 

[Brian R. VanCise]

My point is that if you only play in a certain sand box you will have a "limited perspective"! That perspective could be detrimental in a personal protection situation on the street where you might need a different skill set!

 

[Hanzou]

Well that comes from a pretty limited perspective Hanzou. A BJJ practitioner working in Budo Taijutsu would be exposed to extensive options for dealing with weapons and more. !

If those "options" are of the same quality as the grappling and other antics being showcased by Hatsumi, I'll pass. I'm sure that there's vastly superior alternatives available.

 

[drop bear]

I have often said a really nice "eye opening" experience is for BJJ guys to train with Budo Taijutsu or FMA guys and vice versa. Some cross over and a different perspective to be gained by each! It is a big world out there and if you define what you do as only a certain area you may just not be able to deal with all the variables that can come into play in a "real world" personal protection situation! Broaden your minds folks and it will only make you a better martial practitioner!!!

Some sort of open mat. Sure.

 

[Steve]

No. The closest you can say is that, if it's a grappling action, it can potentially be incorporated into BJJ, but won't necessarily be.

Frankly, you have a very limited perspective on what grappling is, and what defines "works".

LOL. The point was completely lost on you, because you say, "No," and then actually say the same thing in different words. The main point is that BJJ is open to what works. It's a pragmatic style that welcomes correction over time. If it works, it's welcome. This is in contrast to a style, such as Judo, where there is a concern about what is the essence of the style. Judo restricts what techniques will count and what won't based upon a sense of what is central to being Judo, such as when the Morote Gari (aka, the double leg) was banned from competition. BJJ, in contrast, welcomes outside techniques that work, and if necessary will just create a new rule set. There are literally dozens of completely different rulesets for BJJ practitioners to compete within, from MMA to no limit, sub only competitions to IBJJF. Gi, no-gi, clothing optional (just kidding about that, I hope). It's all there. It's an openness that people either appreciate or don't, but it's central to the mindset of the art. If you don't agree with the current IBJJF prohibition against knee reaping, you can compete in other venues that allow it. You don't like the points systems? Compete in one that is submission only.

Look, you don't have to like it. Heck, you don't even have to understand it. Just accept it and move on.

Bluntly, your opinion, being based on being thoroughly clueless about the actual subject itself (to be clear, I'm referring to ninjutsu and it's approach to grappling here), doesn't amount to much, Steve. I will say, though, that this level of art bashing is something you normally tell others to knock off… and this is the first of a few comments you make here.

I'm not bashing any arts and I am appalled that you would suggest otherwise. I tried to be very clear and I think that you are looking for offense where none was given or even intended.

In what universe does ninjutsu belong in a group with BJJ, Judo, Wrestling, Sambo and Shiu Jiao? Ninjutsu is nothing like these other styles. The training model is completely different, and you even go into great lengths to outline this point yourself when you acknowledge that BJJ, Judo, Wrestling, Sambo and Shiu Jiao are like cousins. It's like the song from Sesame Street:

"One of these things is not like the others,
One of these things just doesn't belong,
Can you tell which thing is not like the others
By the time I finish my song?"

Beyond that, I think you're being incredibly rude. You usually are whenever you lead with "Bluntly." I guess I can just consider myself lucky you haven't resorted to calling me "son" or some other obvious diminutive.

And as usual, you can't decide if you agree with me or not. You certainly make it clear you don't want to, but when you get down to brass tacks and start trying to support your position, you essentially restate my premises.

No. To pretty much all of that. If you're training BJJ, you're training BJJ. The particular mechanical method might have originally been transported from another methodology (albeit highly similar in many respects, from the list you give), but it becomes BJJ once incorporated into BJJ. I would also argue pretty strongly that, in the example school you mention, when you're training BJJ, you're only training BJJ… his approach will undoubtedly be influenced by his Aikido, but to say that you'd be training Aikido at the same time is to completely misunderstand what makes each art what it is, what Aikido is, what separates it from BJJ, and more.

Just for the record, I can understand how in a sentence by sentence, out of context dissection of several posts one could get confused as you did, but overall, the point I was suggesting is that it is all BJJ, and that BJJ welcomes outside influences.

You really need to come to some definition of "work" here… there's plenty of approaches, methods, and more that "work" in their context, but aren't really compatible with BJJ (or similar) at all. After all, the various systems you mention are, as you said, "close cousins"… with very similar contexts, applications, training methodologies, and so on. It's natural to expect a fair amount of cross-pollination and overlap in their approaches… but to then say that's the only thing that "works" is to show a great lack of appreciation for anything that doesn't match your small area of understanding.

By the way, it's ideas like this that have garnered you and others such nicknames as the "BJJ mafia"… if you were wondering.

Once again, if it is grappling and it works, it's fair game in BJJ, regardless of where it comes from. If someone comes into a BJJ school and uses techniques learned in Hapkido, great. Or karate, or anywhere else. It's very practical that way. By the way, this is the part where you actually contradicted yourself above. So, while I certainly did not suggest that BJJ is the only thing that works (just the opposite, actually), I appreciate that you go out of your way to articulate the reasons why ninjutsu grappling does not belong in a conversation with other grappling arts, as they are really very dissimilar in... how did you say it? Oh yeah, contexts, applications, training methodologies and so on.

It's not meant to… but not for the reasons you're thinking.

Ah, you're being snarky. Agreeing with me and yet somehow being argumentative. I know that you write very, very long posts, but you should consider re-reading them from time to time, for consistency.

Bjj Eastern Europe – Vinny Magalhaes: ‘BJJ Became a Weird Game with Pussified Rules’

"The direction that sport BJJ is going is worrying many. Nowadays modern Ju-Jitsu is guard centric and most competitors don’t even bother with takedowns. They just pull guard and aim to sweep from the guard. BJJ has become more of a game than a combat system."

Oh… and watch the video at the end… just saying…

This is funny because you don't get it. You went to google to find something that supports your pre-determined position.

Do you think that there is only one game in town? As I have said in previous posts and earlier in this one, there is a competitive rule set to suit anyone, and a lot of guys compete in several. MMA, ADCC, IBJJF, Grappler's Quest, Metamoris... these are international competitions, and then add local or regional competitions and you have competitions that are as hard or soft as you want.

Frankly, Steve, you aren't in any position to offer any qualified opinion. Mainly as you then follow up with this:

What that tells me is that you haven't really seen anything genuine….

That's what I've been saying!!! It took you like 1000 words to finally get there. I haven't seen it. That's not art bashing. It's acknowledging that I haven't seen it. I didn't say it doesn't exist. I said I haven't seen it. By god, I think you may have just had a moment of clarity, Chris.

I had to snip the rest out, Chris. It was, frankly, very patronizing and I couldn't get through it. It's the same old rhetoric we've all heard a thousand times. You train for death and destruction on the mean streets, don't train for competition, basically do BJJ, just not on the ground and of course I would completely understand if I could only comprehend the very fundamental meaning of the word "grappling" to begin with, because surely, as a BJJ guy, I am stupid and can only think about the world as it exists from the ground. Give me a break.

The difference between styles, or even schools within a style, has little to do with technique. Surely you know this. What makes one BJJ school "good" and one "bad?" It's about how things are trained. Listing the names of techniques does not equal training. As I said before, ninjutsu may teach grappling that works. I don't know. I've seen it talked about a lot. Lord knows, you're nothing if not prolific and can bang out a few thousand words in no time flat.