While Bjj came from Judo there's some pretty significant differences between the two. Most of those differences stem from a fundamental difference in purpose and philosophy. Judo is heavily geared towards sport while Bjj is heavily geared towards street fighting and self defense. In essence, you could argue that Bjj is what Judo would have turned into if Kano was more interested in beating the crap out of people than creating a recreational sport.
Wow. Well, that's a heavily biased and largely inaccurate reading of many aspects… in fact, I'd say that you could argue that only if you were blind to reality, history, and, well, anything that didn't show your favoured pastime as the most incredible art that ever existed…
My point is that no, BJJ is not "heavily geared towards street fighting and self defence"… while it can be useful there, it simply isn't geared in that fashion, and thinking it is is only evidence of not having any clue as to either context… and while Kano Sensei's ideal was not the basic, minor, and amateurish desire to "beat the crap out of people", it was also not to "create a recreational sport".
Hey now! I never said "shoot wrestling, sambo... or judo have no grappling that works." Quite the opposite. I know that they have stuff that works. What I'm saying is, "if it is grappling and it works, it's BJJ." If something works in Judo, it is folded into BJJ. If something works in sambo, any kind of wrestling (shoot, folk, CACC), BJJ welcomes it. BJJ isn't confined to a canon of techniques, or a single ruleset. BJJ as a style is very practical. If it is grappling and it works, it is incorporated.
No. The closest you can say is that, if it's a grappling action, it can potentially be incorporated into BJJ, but won't necessarily be.
Frankly, you have a very limited perspective on what grappling is, and what defines "works".
I did actually laugh out loud that you chose to include ninjutsu in with wrestling, sambo and judo. That was a real "one of these things doesn't belong" moment.
I've never seen any ninjutsu grappling that isn't a staged demo or compliant partner exercise. Doesn't mean it doesn't exist or work, but as far as I'm concerned, it's like Sasquatch. People swear they've seen it, but I'm not completely convinced.
Bluntly, your opinion, being based on being thoroughly clueless about the actual subject itself (to be clear, I'm referring to ninjutsu and it's approach to grappling here), doesn't amount to much, Steve. I will say, though, that this level of art bashing is something you normally tell others to knock off… and this is the first of a few comments you make here.
If you're referring to me, I think you're mistaken, and going about it from the absolute wrong direction.
f you're training BJJ, you're training a little of everything. You will see the technique in BJJ influenced by wrestling, sambo, judo, and anything else that works. Heck, since Aikido is a current, hot topic, I can think of at least one very skilled BJJ black belt who also has a black belt in Aikido and has synthesized a lot of what he's learned from aikido to inform his BJJ. So, you could even say that if you're training BJJ in his school, you're training Aikido (and Judo).
No. To pretty much all of that. If you're training BJJ, you're training BJJ. The particular mechanical method might have originally been transported from another methodology (albeit highly similar in many respects, from the list you give), but it becomes BJJ once incorporated into BJJ. I would also argue pretty strongly that, in the example school you mention, when you're training BJJ, you're only training BJJ… his approach will undoubtedly be influenced by his Aikido, but to say that you'd be training Aikido at the same time is to completely misunderstand what makes each art what it is, what Aikido is, what separates it from BJJ, and more.
If you're training something else, and it's the furthest thing from BJJ, I think you might be in trouble... that is, if you want it to work. BJJ, sambo, judo, and wrestling are all close cousins. There is a lot of overlap, and a lot of cross pollination. If it's too far are away from BJJ, it's also a long way from just about every other style of grappling that has a chance of functioning as designed.
You really need to come to some definition of "work" here… there's plenty of approaches, methods, and more that "work" in their context, but aren't really compatible with BJJ (or similar) at all. After all, the various systems you mention are, as you said, "close cousins"… with very similar contexts, applications, training methodologies, and so on. It's natural to expect a fair amount of cross-pollination and overlap in their approaches… but to then say that's the only thing that "works" is to show a great lack of appreciation for anything that doesn't match your small area of understanding.
By the way, it's ideas like this that have garnered you and others such nicknames as the "BJJ mafia"… if you were wondering.
As for Ninjutsu, yeah it doesn't really belong with Judo, Bjj, Sambo, and wrestling.
It's not meant to… but not for the reasons you're thinking.
I think you answered your own question at the end there. Every match in every BJJ competition, regardless of ruleset, starts standing.
Bjj Eastern Europe – Vinny Magalhaes: ‘BJJ Became a Weird Game with Pussified Rules’
"The direction that sport BJJ is going is worrying many. Nowadays modern Ju-Jitsu is guard centric and most competitors don’t even bother with takedowns. They just pull guard and aim to sweep from the guard. BJJ has become more of a game than a combat system."
Oh… and watch the video at the end… just saying…
Regarding the ninja thing, I truly have no idea. It's something I hear a lot of people talk about, but as I said, it's like Bigfoot. Some people insist it's real, but I've seen no evidence of it beyond some enthusiastic rhetoric. I've never trained Sambo, but I can see evidence of it's efficacy if I take just a few minutes to look for it. Shiu Jao is a very foreign way of grappling to me, but I can look at it and it makes sense. Based upon what I know about how people move, and the mechanics of grappling, I get it. It's a different system, but I've no doubt that it can work.
Frankly, Steve, you aren't in any position to offer any qualified opinion. Mainly as you then follow up with this:
If I look for effective ninja grappling, I find little to distinguish Ashida Kim from anyone else. Once again, doesn't mean it doesn't exist. Just saying I've never seen it or any evidence of it.
What that tells me is that you haven't really seen anything genuine… or, at least, not recognised what you were seeing. So I'm going to break things down for you a bit.
"Grappling" does not mean "ground fighting". It also does not mean "submission wrestling", or anything similar. Those are some aspects of the entire concept of grappling, but hardly the definitive nor exhaustive definition of the word.
Martial arts are not their techniques (although you seem to be equating techniques to "what works")… but, if you want to go that route, here you go:
What is called a "Kimura" in BJJ is called a Gyaku Oni Kudaki with us.
What is called an Arm-Bar is called a Muso Dori with us.
What is called a "whizzer" is called a Musha Dori with us.
What is called a "goose-neck" is called a Take Ori with us.
What is called a "Overhand Wrist Lock" is called an Oni Kudaki with us.
Throws in Ninjutsu include many of the same ones found in Judo (albeit sometimes done slightly differently, due to differing contexts), such as Seoi Nage, Gyaku Seoi Nage, Katate Nage, Kata Guruma, Koshi Nage, Ippon Seoi Nage, Uchimata (O-uchi Gari), Uchigake, Osoto Gari, Osoto Gake, O Guruma, Tomoe Nage, Yoko Nagare, Tai Otoshi, Morote Gari, and many, many more. In fact, I recently went through a list of our throws… came up with about 42 (compared with Judo's 64, for the record), with many having a Judo equivalent if not basically being exactly the same).
Chokes include gi-chokes (Hon Jime, Gyaku Jime, Osae Shime, Gyaku Osae Jime, and more), and chokes that don't involve the gi (sankaku jime, basically a RNC, kata-hagai jime, and more).
Body holds/chokes include Hagai Jime (full nelson), Do Jime/Karada Jime (a variety of bear hugs), and more.
From each of these techniques there are a number of counters and escapes as well… in addition to a range of methods to apply these techniques against striking attacks, or weapon attacks (in different forms).
So here's my point. We have (largely) the same techniques… however, we do them all standing. We don't focus on the ground much at all. It's a very minor aspect in our context, honestly. We also don't give a damn about competition… it's really the opposite of what we do. As a result, our training methodologies aren't focused around the same context as yours. That will naturally lead in a different direction… sometimes with a minor deviation, sometimes a little more dramatically… but that doesn't mean that what we do isn't "grappling"… nor that it doesn't "work"… it's just not what you do.
I will say, though, that if you're only looking at ground fighting as your definition of "grappling" (which certainly seems to be the prevailing, albeit inaccurate, interpretation), then we don't have anything like it. There is nothing in any of our traditional methods that deals in ground fighting, especially the way it's done in Judo and BJJ… much of the videos you might have seen that way are attempts to apply some principles and ideas in a different context, which is not always understood. I offer no excuses for that, and am as against it as you guys are… personally, I feel that if something isn't understood, it shouldn't be presented as if it is.
