Muay Thai in MMA

[FriedRice]

No one here said or thinks that soldiers have a 'secret sauce' etc etc. No one thinks soldiers are turned in 'magic killing machines, no one said that. Not sure what your point is here. .

I wasn't even talking to you.

The training they get in hand to hand fighting is limited but is quite different from MMA/martial arts, it focuses only on killing/maiming rather than sport.

But since you wanted to talk about this with me....there, you just proved my point. You are that someone who thinks that there is some kind of secret sauce to kill people by hand, that's implemented in the military's H2H systems, that's unknown to MMA.

'Rage stabbing', well no, here our military are taught to use a bayonet properly, rage doesn't come into it. Yes, our soldiers have used bayonets in Afghan, yes I know what I'm talking about.

Tell me, what type of rifle did their bayonet attach to.

No one is disputing MT is a very useful part of MMA but it isn't the only useful weapon in the arsenal. I'm not sure what your argument is other than to just argue.

Show me where I said that MT is "the only useful weapon in the arsenal" of MMA. If you can't, then it sounds to me that you're the one looking to argue by making things up, that I didn't say in the first place, just to argue.

 

[FriedRice]

This is a really trolly question, simply because you're expecting her to be familiar with >10 gyms in her country that are capable of turning out high level MMA fighters, on that already use Muay Thai.

You playing the Troll Card? But I also don't think that you understand what we were arguing about....maybe due to your last sentence being unintelligible, so can you clarify?

While I'm less familiar with high level fighter producing gyms, I'm familiar with a lot of gyms in my area, and a decent number of my friends are involved competitively, but it would be tough for me to name off the top of my head 10 gyms that produce fighters in general (although a majority of them combine either boxing or kickboxing and BJJ since that's whats popular over here).

I can certainly name 10 gyms.

Based on the amount of troll responses you've been giving everyone in this thread and others, I'm just going to "ignore" you. I'm not writing this to let you know, I'm writing it to remind others of that option before they waste even more time arguing with you pointlessly.

Interesting how you think that you're so much above other people that you need to help them with this.

 

[kuniggety]

That's interesting, but still doesn't answer my question of why there are Muay Boran schools that grapples on the ground like all White Belt BJJ's?

Because just like the umbrella term of kung fu there are things like shuai Jiao that teach grappling. I'm not well versed in the Boran arts but some are: "Muay Chaiya," "Muay Thasao," "Muay Lopburi," and "Muay Korat." If you look into their curriculums, in sure one or two of them involve rolling around in the dirt.

 

[FriedRice]

Because just like the umbrella term of kung fu there are things like shuai Jiao that teach grappling. I'm not well versed in the Boran arts but some are: "Muay Chaiya," "Muay Thasao," "Muay Lopburi," and "Muay Korat." If you look into their curriculums, in sure one or two of them involve rolling around in the dirt.

And they're all still way more inferior to BJJ when it comes to grappling on the ground, which was the original argument. MMA, in general (if ever), do not train these Muay-X variations for its grappling base for this reason.

 

[Tez3]

I wasn't even talking to you.

Ooo get you sunshine.

But since you wanted to talk about this with me....there, you just proved my point. You are that someone who thinks that there is some kind of secret sauce to kill people by hand, that's implemented in the military's H2H systems, that's unknown to MMA

ROFLMAO, as someone who has actually served in HM Forces ( Intelligence Officer in the RAF, who worked with the Det. among other units), whose other half was in the RAF Regiment ( one of the Sqns he was onhttp://www.eliteukforces.info/raf-regiment/ ) and who has spent most of my life working with the military I can categorically say you are talking a load of bollocks. You are spoiling for a fight mate, because you seem not want to understand what people are saying to you. I repeat, as there is limited hand to hand training taught, they concentrate on killing/maiming techniques. I shall explain as simply as I can for you, they concentrate on those techniques because the training is limited, they don't spend a lot of time on it, I didn't say those 'techniques' are unknown in MMA at all, that's your thinking not mine. In the limited lessons they have the instructors only teach a couple of things that may be useful. If you go onto to spec forces training they spend more time on hand to hand fighting but again it's restricted to techniques they can teach in a short time, too much to learn to spend time on something that may or may not be useful. Stop with the 'magic sauce stuff' you really have no idea what you are talking about.
As British squaddies like fighting they don't actually need much hand to hand combat instruction, you will learn everything you need to going out with them on a night lol.

Tell me, what type of rifle did their bayonet attach to.

SA80

Soldier who led Afghanistan bayonet charge into hail of bullets honoured

The video was taken at the Infantry Training Centre, Catterick Garrison. Next time don't call me a liar, don't even infer it.


You might want to read through this is you are interested in squaddie's views, I take no responsibility for any bad language, shocking behaviour, sarcasm and squaddieness you may find inside this army site. Hand to Hand Combat
Every one else enjoy the views of squaddies, I can translate any words you don't understand.

 

[Tez3]

"And the final point to be made – facetious, but true – is that Infantry soldiers have more than enough practice at fighting in their own time without some half-arsed jap slapping being taught to them. When it comes to it it is just about aggression and will. As someone once pointed out to me, a ninja may be hard, but he's not as hard as a glass ash tray. Neither is he as hard as a bayonet, UGL smashed repeatedly in his face, or seven other blokes whose weapons still work.

You train your mates to be black-belts and give every one a pistol. I reckon my Infantry Company will knock your heads in every time."

"I used to do karate until I discovered Smith&Wesson"

"The Public Safety and Public Order instructors course teaches restraint and other techniques to stop bad people doing badness - It is a requirement for each unit to have at least one instructor on the books. I think unarmed combat isn't taught because generally you'll have something to hand to poke/gouge/beat etc with rather than trying to unleash vulcan neck grips."


"back in the day the preferred Dojo was outside a bar around midnight :evil:
The view expressed by grownups was if the lads knew how to fight they'd only do each other more damage.
the only time I ever face a martial artist who appeared to know what they were doing terror and rage and a Barstool stopped him :twisted: "


"I think you'll find there's not much unarmed combat training — there's not even a great deal of it for sneaky beaky stuff — because it's not considered worth the investment of time and energy. Barring a few very rare situations, guns and arty are what you need. Long range mayhem trumps chop-socky every time. Unless both you and the enemy have run out of guns or ammo, the battle is over, innit?

It takes a lot of time to train someone to be highly effective in unarmed combat, time which most militaries recognise is better spent in training soldiers to shoot well, maintain their weapons properly, and be fit enough to carry a sh1tload of ammo.

Ok, yes, it is fairly quick and easy to train a fit soldier in the basic rudiments of self-defence — how to overcome a knife attack or defeat someone close by who's holding a gun — but even that's of debatable effectiveness because in situations like that the psychology is at least as important as the physical skills. Taking a pistol off someone close to you isn't that hard physically ... but you have to steel yourself, and nerve up, to do it ... and I'd suggest that is much harder than many people might imagine. Hollywood this ain't."

"unarmed combat, surely the boys get enough done over the weekend down the town to be able to manage a scrap on the battlefield!!
where the fook do these comments come from, id rather know time and money was invested in my weapon, my equipment and myself to ensure it all worked and i could keep the enemy at a safe shooting distance rather than unarmed combat
get real about this sort of crap, its not like in the films"

"From my old perspective there's nothing better than on the job training. I used to walk into town on a Friday night knowing that eventually some bloke somewhere would call me some sort of mong and that I'd have to go toe to toe with him.
I usually lost but eventually I could put up a good scrap!
Utrinque get beatupus"

Hand to Hand Combat


PS if you aren't easily shocked and want a laugh go to the 'Naafi' section, probably best only for those who have served, military sense of humour is an acquired taste.

 

[FriedRice]

Ooo get you sunshine.

ROFLMAO, as someone who has actually served in HM Forces ( Intelligence Officer in the RAF, who worked with the Det. among other units), whose other half was in the RAF Regiment ( one of the Sqns he was onhttp://www.eliteukforces.info/raf-regiment/ ) and who has spent most of my life working with the military I can categorically say you are talking a load of bollocks. .

Wait, do you know this guy from the RAF?

You are spoiling for a fight mate, because you seem not want to understand what people are saying to you. I repeat, as there is limited hand to hand training taught, they concentrate on killing/maiming techniques. I shall explain as simply as I can for you, they concentrate on those techniques because the training is limited, they don't spend a lot of time on it, I didn't say those 'techniques' are unknown in MMA at all, that's your thinking not mine. In the limited lessons they have the instructors only teach a couple of things that may be useful. If you go onto to spec forces training they spend more time on hand to hand fighting but again it's restricted to techniques they can teach in a short time, too much to learn to spend time on something that may or may not be useful. Stop with the 'magic sauce stuff' you really have no idea what you are talking about.
As British squaddies like fighting they don't actually need much hand to hand combat instruction, you will learn everything you need to going out with them on a night lol.

That's quite a lot of early 2000's "LOL's". So we teach 2nd day BJJ White Belts how to rear naked choke. Is this also a special sauce, death move?

SA80

Soldier who led Afghanistan bayonet charge into hail of bullets honoured

The video was taken at the Infantry Training Centre, Catterick Garrison. Next time don't call me a liar, don't even infer it.


You might want to read through this is you are interested in squaddie's views, I take no responsibility for any bad language, shocking behaviour, sarcasm and squaddieness you may find inside this army site. Hand to Hand Combat
Every one else enjoy the views of squaddies, I can translate any words you don't understand.

Scary. Looks a lot like rage stabbing to me though. Do bayonets really work though? How come there aren't any women in those videos? Not a good idea?

 

[Tez3]

So, let's see how many of the rules here on MT you are breaking here, sniping, baiting, attacking a poster not the post. Tell me why are you on here? You seem to take a delight in trolling people and trying to set off arguments.
Sorry I'm not biting, you are the worse kind of troll... a boring one.

As for your disrespect of the military, some of those soldiers in the videos were killed or wounded in Afghanistan, says everything we need to know about you.

Bye, have a nice safe civilian life and leave the real work of guarding your freedom and safety to those who serve honourably.

 

[Monkey Turned Wolf]

.

 

[FriedRice]

So, let's see how many of the rules here on MT you are breaking here, sniping, baiting, attacking a poster not the post. Tell me why are you on here? You seem to take a delight in trolling people and trying to set off arguments.
Sorry I'm not biting, you are the worse kind of troll... a boring one.

As for your disrespect of the military, some of those soldiers in the videos were killed or wounded in Afghanistan, says everything we need to know about you.

Bye, have a nice safe civilian life and leave the real work of guarding your freedom and safety to those who serve honourably.

People in the military can't take a joke? Or are you trying real hard to get offended? Relax a little maybe?

 

[Steve]

The thing to also understand is that many gyms have separate classes too in MT, TKD, fitness, yoga, boxercise etc because it helps pay the bills. It doesn't mean the fighters necessarily use this classes, though the standard of MT and the others will be high and worth taking if you want to go into MMA. We do have some of the best MT clubs in Europe btw. Most have dedicated classes for fighters which are often invitation only so don't appear on the class lists.
Any way your list of ten ( I can give you more including our own) MMA gyms/clubs that turn out high levels fighters, whatever style they chose to use. No 6, they use boxing because that's what Ian trained in. It's also a place mostly for 'ard men ( if you knew Ian you'd know why) lol though Ian's daughter is embarking on an MMA fight career.

1. Trojans
2. London Shoot ( has the added advantage of having members who embark on multi million bank raids)
3. Leicester ( some of the very best BJJ in the country, Nathan is a great guy besides)
4. Dogs of War ( Welsh look you)
5. Dinky Ninjas ( some of my favourite men)
6 Ian Freeman's
7. Tillery Combat ( Jack Marshman's 'home', he's from boxing not MT)
8 Griphouse ( Scottish, more favourite men)
9.Wolfslair ( should be known to most)
10. Next Gen ( Liverpool)

Tillery Combat is typical of the gyms I was talking about, they have 'stand up classes'. Their standup coach is a boxing coach. Jack Marshman is also a coach there when he's home, he's a serving Para.
London Shoot offers classes in a lot of different styles and has pro fighters sessions for which you need instructors permission to attend.
I've never said MT isn't used or taught, so strange to think you read that in what I said, I just don't think you understand how it's used.

I may be mistaken, but I think you and fried rice are actually arguing the same position.

Oh, nevermind, Things got personal.

 

[Tony Dismukes]

No one here said or thinks that soldiers have a 'secret sauce' etc etc

No one here in this current discussion, correct. That's because most of us have a fair amount of experience.

No one thinks soldiers are turned in 'magic killing machines, no one said that. Not sure what your point is here.

There's a fairly common misconception out there that because the military engages in deadly conflicts that their hand-to-hand combative training must be especially lethal and effective. This is (for just one example) used as the basis for most Krav Maga marketing. If I was willing to spend some time digging, I could even find some past examples of people who should know better making this sort of argument on this very forum.

I may be mistaken, but I think you and fried rice are actually arguing the same position.

Yep.

 

[Tony Dismukes]

oh by the way. You think people in BJJ don't know how to strike?

If you think that the majority of BJJ only people can strike well, then that just says a lot about your own striking skills.

Just because someone knows BJJ doesn't mean they lack the skills or ability to punch your lights out.

Personal observations here:

• The majority of BJJ classes these days don't teach striking at all
• Those BJJ classes which do teach striking, present it at a fairly rudimentary level, mostly just to help set up grappling techniques.
• Notwithstanding the above, I'd say that of the BJJ black belts I know personally, probably 70% of them are also at least black belt or black-belt equivalent in at least one striking art. It's never a good idea to assume that somebody knows only one thing.

 

[Tez3]

There's a fairly common misconception out there that because the military engages in deadly conflicts that their hand-to-hand combative training must be especially lethal and effective. This is (for just one example) used as the basis for most Krav Maga marketing. If I was willing to spend some time digging, I could even find some past examples of people who should know better making this sort of argument on this very forum.

'Out there' being? Most Brits know enough about the military here to know that they don't engage in hand to hand combat, perhaps we're had more coverage of recent wars than Americans which disabuses people of any false ideas about what combat is. We've had a lot of programmes about the military in training as well as in combat zones.
KM isn't hugely marketed here nor is it that popular so we don't see this marketing.


You forget that I was the one being accused of believing that the military had the 'magic sauce' here, I was also accused of lying about our troops having used a bayonet charge and had my husband who has served in several wars made fun of. I was also accused of lying about MMA here something I know a lot about, I was told I couldn't name 10 MMA gyms here, I did, and what's more I know the people in them and who run them. If people are going to come on here, mock and troll others then they will have to expect robust answers back, if they can't take it then that's their problem. This is also the person who is following me onto other threads and putting 'funny' on my posts about rape which is frankly despicable. I don't care whether he likes me or not, but to find rape funny is surely the sign of a very strange mind.

 

[Tony Dismukes]

'Out there' being?

It's pretty common in the U.S. at least. I've also seen it on numerous discussion boards with international membership.

You forget that I was the one being accused of believing that the military had the 'magic sauce' here, I was also accused of lying about our troops having used a bayonet charge and had my husband who has served in several wars made fun of. I was also accused of lying about MMA here something I know a lot about, I was told I couldn't name 10 MMA gyms here, I did, and what's more I know the people in them and who run them. If people are going to come on here, mock and troll others then they will have to expect robust answers back, if they can't take it then that's their problem. This is also the person who is following me onto other threads and putting 'funny' on my posts about rape which is frankly despicable. I don't care whether he likes me or not, but to find rape funny is surely the sign of a very strange mind.

Oh, I totally agree that FriedRice is being generally rude to multiple people (including you) on multiple threads (including this one). I figure the moderators will be taking that up with him behind the scenes. I was just pointing out that on the original substantive issue at hand - are military hand-to-hand combative methods especially lethal and effective compared to civilian methods - you are actually saying the same thing. Hand-to-hand combatives are a very minor part of military training compared to ... well, just about every other part of military training. Wars are won through firepower, strategy, tactics, logistics, communications, unit discipline, morale, etc, not by individual skill in unarmed combat. Since unarmed fighting skills are relatively unimportant in a military context, soldiers generally receive only rudimentary training in that topic.

 

[Tez3]

you are actually saying the same thing.

Of course I am, because it's true but I was being accused of being the person that believed otherwise. It doesn't need to be explained to me, one of the camps I worked with before I retired is the Infantry Training Centre here in Catterick, I know what the training is, I also know what Royal Marine training is like having been a member of the Royal Marine Parachuting Club and spent a lot of bad weather time watching the training ( best bit...watching hotlocks of food being delivered to recruits who open them to find live chickens which they had to kill, pluck and cook for their dinner) with others who were actually instructors. One of the best MMA fighters in the UK used to be a Royal Marine PTI btw. ( 'Stapes', was on one of the TUF series). One of the camps we lived on was the RAF Regt. ( husband instructor, I used to type up his notes for teaching) basic training camp used to have to go and get my dog when he ran off to beg food from the recruits on exercise.

The subject of what training was/is done in the military was the result of the same poster being rude to someone else eye again. It had nothing to do with MMA or Muay Thai.

I don't know if this will show in the US, hopefully so as it's very interesting. RIP to the lads from there though that died in Afghanistan.
Royal Marines Commando School - All 4

 

[Tez3]

And Krav Maga? Krav Maga: Kill or be killed. Does it really work?

 

[FriedRice]

Personal observations here:

• The majority of BJJ classes these days don't teach striking at all
• Those BJJ classes which do teach striking, present it at a fairly rudimentary level, mostly just to help set up grappling techniques.
• Notwithstanding the above, I'd say that of the BJJ black belts I know personally, probably 70% of them are also at least black belt or black-belt equivalent in at least one striking art. It's never a good idea to assume that somebody knows only one thing.

Somewhat true. It's also true that you can learn proper striking and still never be able to apply it competently vs., say an intermediate level striker in MT (who does spar often). Especially black belts in TMA type striking arts can range anywhere from awesome to pure crap when it's time to spar hard. There are dudes who are awesome on the pads with good techniques and power...for many years... but when it's time to spar...they get all flustered, get jacked up and then find all the excuses to leave or not show up on sparring days....then eventually they quit. And this is in Muay Thai class. This is just my observation from a very large MMA gym (10k sq/ft. locker rooms, 6 showers, etc.) with at least 200 current students on the books.

It's like the other guy saying how rolling on the dirt wrestling is nothing new and his Kung-Fu people can do it too; which just shows that he's never trained that seriously vs. BJJ's.

 

[JowGaWolf]

It's pretty common in the U.S. at least. I've also seen it on numerous discussion boards with international membership.

The U.S. has a big survivalist market so it's probably more common here than anywhere else. You know how Americans can be. Always chasing the next new trend in self-defense.

Notwithstanding the above, I'd say that of the BJJ black belts I know personally, probably 70% of them are also at least black belt or black-belt equivalent in at least one striking art. It's never a good idea to assume that somebody knows only one thing.

Totally agree about not assuming that someone only knows one thing. My rule for striking is if you can punch a bag hard, then you can punch my face hard. If you can kick a bag hard, then you can kick me hard. These are the only things that are required to make a strike "dangerous enough." So even if the person hasn't trained in a striking art. If they can do those 2 things then it's a danger to me. Wild untrained strikes can be just as dangerous as trained ones if they are coming in hard


In addition striking can be done either standing up or on the ground. If a BJJ guy is on the ground I don't assume that he can't kick me in my knee.

It's like the other guy saying how rolling on the dirt wrestling is nothing new and his Kung-Fu people can do it too;

Shuai Jiao, Mongolian Wrestling

The ancient South Asian form of wrestling is called malla-yuddha.[2] Practiced at least since the 5th millenniun BC,[3][4]described in the 13th century treatise Malla Purana, it was the precursor of modern kushti

 

[Tez3]

If a BJJ guy is on the ground I don't assume that he can't kick me in my knee.

I've seen KOs from that position in MMA fighters, an upward kick catching the opponent as he's about to jump ( well not exactly jump but I can't say go down on him can I? ) on to his downed opponent.