Why does MMA count as an own martial art now ?

[Steve]

Uh, he said that Bjj is a system designed for self defense and street fighting several times in that interview.

And the interviewer was like, "no... Wrong answer. Try again and take the hint. I want you to say something bad about the IBJJF guys."

 

[Gerry Seymour]

Why?

If I am peddaling garbage I should be told. Hell someone might actually fight me one day. And you haven't done me any favors by letting me believe my rubbish works.

You are being my Ronda rousey striking coach. "Yeah you can bang with holley"

I agree. Even if the video is misleading (looks much worse than it is), an instructor should want to know how it's perceived. Most of them are in business, and getting that sort of feedback - if they are actually capable of better - will allow them to put up better examples.

If they aren't capable of better, as you said, they need to know it before they find out on the street. I was certainly culpable of high hubris somewhere around my brown belt. I thought I was invincible (hey, I was in my 20's - who isn't invincible at that age?). Some partners who made me see my weaknesses helped cure that.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

Really?

OK so you come and train drop bear fu for a class and you decide it is rubbish. Or you do compliant drills or fixed scenarios and so still have no clue whether the stuff works or it dosent.

You can't trash on a martial art after a day?

Bjj. You will know. Because a black belt will either towel you up or you will towel him up.

So how long do you give dbf with my promises of secret techniques at higher levels?

I don't know that you'd necessarily be able to tell first day with all arts/schools. Even with BJJ, it would not be useful to pair a BB with a new student and ask them to compete. Yes, if you did, you'd know. But the point is supposed to be to learn. My new students get simple, easy-to-learn techniques first day (how to slip a wrist grip, that sort of thing).

That said, to agree with your point, if there are experienced students in the room, someone skilled in martial arts should be able to get an idea if those folks are competent, unless they are working on a drill that makes it hard to see (like practicing forms, working on their falls, etc.). The physics is the same, and most of us can tell if what's being done is crap, clearly functional, or something we can't quite figure out (so we need more time to assess it). I have seen many demonstrations where I was absolutely certain a school was crap in under 15 minutes. And that's without me even getting a chance to work with them.

 

[drop bear]

I don't know that you'd necessarily be able to tell first day with all arts/schools. Even with BJJ, it would not be useful to pair a BB with a new student and ask them to compete. Yes, if you did, you'd know. But the point is supposed to be to learn. My new students get simple, easy-to-learn techniques first day (how to slip a wrist grip, that sort of thing).

That said, to agree with your point, if there are experienced students in the room, someone skilled in martial arts should be able to get an idea if those folks are competent, unless they are working on a drill that makes it hard to see (like practicing forms, working on their falls, etc.). The physics is the same, and most of us can tell if what's being done is crap, clearly functional, or something we can't quite figure out (so we need more time to assess it). I have seen many demonstrations where I was absolutely certain a school was crap in under 15 minutes. And that's without me even getting a chance to work with them.

The issue there is there are so many tricks out there that give the appearance off effectiveness.

We are quite often not very good judges.

Eg. The spazzy submission. You demonstrate on a compliant partner and then crank on a wrist lock or something. Because it hurts like hell you consider it a viable defence without ever considering how you would actually fight into that position.

 

[Ironbear24]

Well that comes from a pretty limited perspective Hanzou. A BJJ practitioner working in Budo Taijutsu would be exposed to extensive options for dealing with weapons and more. Heck I was showing a BJJ instructor awhile ago a counter to a hip throw that is from Budo Taijutsu that works like a charm. If you ever make it to Vegas I will be happy to show you. Like wise I have opened many a Budo Taijutsu practitioners eyes to the effectiveness of BJJ!

If it is not commonly found in UFC than odds are the bjj guys aren't going to like it. They might even go as far as to call it useless.

 

[Steve]

If it is not commonly found in UFC than odds are the bjj guys aren't going to like it. They might even go as far as to call it useless.

I think you're going about it backwards. If it's useful, it is likely to find its way into the UFC. May not be there yet, but it will find its way there eventually. But you never find it f you aren't open to cross training. Brian has a great attitude. Others around here not so much.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

The issue there is there are so many tricks out there that give the appearance off effectiveness.

We are quite often not very good judges.

Eg. The spazzy submission. You demonstrate on a compliant partner and then crank on a wrist lock or something. Because it hurts like hell you consider it a viable defence without ever considering how you would actually fight into that position.

Agreed. The lock is, in fact, useful, but only if you get into a situation that sets it up. This is why so many students get into the, "but, what if he..." questions. The answer is often, "Then do what works there. This won't." It's an unsatisfying answer to the student, but it's true. The problem comes when an instructor doesn't giver that answer, but asserts (sometimes in so many words) that the technique will always work "if you are good enough." Nothing always works, and some defensive techniques are what I call "gap fillers" and "targets of opportunity".

 

[Hanzou]

If it is not commonly found in UFC than odds are the bjj guys aren't going to like it. They might even go as far as to call it useless.

FMA isn't found in the UFC, and I like it very much. Boxing wasn't prevelant in MMA for years, but I've always been a fan of it. A martial art's representation in MMA is only part of the overall equation. If I'm seeing the founder of BT performing complete nonsense and passing it off as effective technique, that's pretty unforgivable IMO because as a teacher he has a responsibility to his art and to his students.

That btw is why I said that BT may not be the best fit for a Bjj practitioner looking to cross train. In Bjj if we're deficient in something we go and find the experts in it and learn it, even if they aren't Bjj. What Hatsumi is doing here is saying that there's no need to cross train elsewhere because all of the answers are within Ninjutsu. That's never a good philosophy to follow, and his shoddy results are proof of that.

It makes you wonder if they're willing to perform complete nonsense on that end of the spectrum, what else are they willing to compromise?

 

[elder999]

Uh, he said that Bjj is a system designed for self defense and street fighting several times in that interview.

Within the Brazilian culture of machismo and code duello, it may well be "designed for street fighting," given that a Brazilian "street fight," encounters are generally confined to a one-on-one scenario, where you have the luxury of rolling around on the ground until a superior position is attained. Beyond that, most of the BJJ studios that I've been in (and it's more than just a few) don't regularly practice the throws of judo that are part of BJJ and the part that was "designed for self defense and street fighting," in fact, most of them-as in something like 90%-prefer wrestling take downs, which generally aren't defensive at all.

. What Hatsumi is doing here is saying that there's no need to cross train elsewhere because all of the answers are within Ninjutsu. That's never a good philosophy to follow, and his shoddy results are proof of that.

I've got to wonder how it is that you know what Hatsumi is doing there actually says, or is meant to demonstrate, given that there's no explanation, even in Japanese, just a title and comments by someone else?

 

[Hanzou]

Within the Brazilian culture of machismo and code duello, it may well be "designed for street fighting," given that a Brazilian "street fight," encounters are generally confined to a one-on-one scenario, where you have the luxury of rolling around on the ground until a superior position is attained.

Uh okay, but that doesn't change the FACT that he said that Bjj was designed for street fighting AND self defense. Further, there are street fights here in the states that are one on one affairs.

My point is this; To say that Bjj wasn't designed for street fighting and self defense is a form of style bashing because we have masters of system saying that that was what the system was specifically designed for. So either you're wrong, or the various masters and creators of the system are liars attempting to purposely mislead people.

Beyond that, most of the BJJ studios that I've been in (and it's more than just a few) don't regularly practice the throws of judo that are part of BJJ and the part that was "designed for self defense and street fighting," in fact, most of them-as in something like 90%-prefer wrestling take downs, which generally aren't defensive at all.

Mainly because Judo throws require a great deal of precision, and strong loose clothing to perform properly, neither of which are guarantees in a self defense or street fighting situation. Bjj focuses more on clinch throws and wrestling takedowns which require less precision, and aren't dependent on the gi to perform. Case in point, an ankle pick is much higher percentage take down than an Uchi Mata. My background is largely Relson Gracie Gjj, and their fundamental program is made up entirely of clinch throws and wrestling style takedowns. There's zero Judo throws in there because the chances of you encountering someone wearing a thick kimono is pretty slim.

I personally practice Judo on the side because I enjoy it. However, if someone were to ask me if they should practice wrestling or Judo to improve their Bjj, I would say wrestling without hesitation.

I've got to wonder how it is that you know what Hatsumi is doing there actually says, or is meant to demonstrate, given that there's no explanation, even in Japanese, just a title and comments by someone else?

What nonsense. There is no mystery behind what Hatsumi is doing. There's no secret code that only Ninja masters can decipher. He is performing bad grappling technique period. Frankly, the only thing worse than Hatsumi performing that silliness on the ground are the people here attempting to defend it.

 

[Tez3]

If it is not commonly found in UFC than odds are the bjj guys aren't going to like it. They might even go as far as to call it useless.

Found in the UFC or MMA? one is a profit making company, the other is a martial arts competitive ruleset/competition.

 

[elder999]

the various masters and creators of the system are liars attempting to purposely mislead people.

Not "lying." It's called hype.

Can't help that you believe it.

(Really. I mean, just how many "street fights," or occasions for self defense, single combat or otherwise, have you been involved in over the past year?

If the answer is more than......."none"....you fail.

)

Mainly because Judo throws require a great deal of precision, and strong loose clothing to perform properly, neither of which are guarantees in a self defense or street fighting situation.

No, and no.

They don't require anymore "precision" than any other takedown-they require practice, practice, practice, and internalization of principles.

They don't require "strong, loose clothing" to perform properly, they require understanding...if you "practice judo on the side," you should ask your sensei, because there are very few throws that actually require any clothing to perform if the person doing them understands them.

Case in point, an ankle pick is much higher percentage take down than an Uchi Mata.

Case in point: uchi mata doesn't require clothing at all.

Tori's right hand could as easily be wrapped around uke's shoulder here, than grasping the jacket (in fact, it's preferable) and the left could be grasping the wrist, rather than the jacket (again, preferable).

What judo throws mostly require (that wrestling takedowns like an ankle pick might not) is blending with an offensive motion-in this, they are great for self-defense if they are understood-they mostly aren't something one does "offensively." You're just not gonna grab someone and perform uchi mata on them; they've gotta be attacking you in some way. Wrestling takedowns are, largely, offensive: single leg, double leg, ankle-pick-all can be performed as attacks, with the objective of winding up on the mat in a superior position, or, at least, getting the point for a takedown.See below

My background is largely Relson Gracie Gjj, and their fundamental program is made up entirely of clinch throws and wrestling style takedowns. There's zero Judo throws in there because the chances of you encountering someone wearing a thick kimono is pretty slim.

Actually, in talking with some of the senior practitioners of BJJ, the reason the gyoku waza are de-emphasized in BJJ is because of the possibility of "giving up the back," a disadvantage in BJJ's sport rule set. That, and from what I've seen, most of them simply aren't equipped or trained to to practice them safely. There really aren't many differences between many wrestling takedowns and judo throws, other than what can be initiated offensively-some of them aren't practiced much by the other because of differing rule sets, and-as someone who wrestled and did judo in high school, I can say that much has always been true.....though it's even more true today.

What nonsense. There is no mystery behind what Hatsumi is doing. There's no secret code that only Ninja masters can decipher. He is performing bad grappling technique period. Frankly, the only thing worse than Hatsumi performing that silliness on the ground are the people here attempting to defend it.

Not defending it at all. How do you know, though,that it wasn't a demonstration of what not to do?

 

[Skullpunch]

Mainly because Judo throws require a great deal of precision, and strong loose clothing to perform properly, neither of which are guarantees in a self defense or street fighting situation. Bjj focuses more on clinch throws and wrestling takedowns which require less precision, and aren't dependent on the gi to perform. Case in point, an ankle pick is much higher percentage take down than an Uchi Mata. My background is largely Relson Gracie Gjj, and their fundamental program is made up entirely of clinch throws and wrestling style takedowns. There's zero Judo throws in there because the chances of you encountering someone wearing a thick kimono is pretty slim.

I personally practice Judo on the side because I enjoy it. However, if someone were to ask me if they should practice wrestling or Judo to improve their Bjj, I would say wrestling without hesitation.

A few things I disagree with here.

O goshi, Harai Goshi, and Sukui Nage are examples of judo takedowns that are easy to adapt to no gi. I'm wondering how many of those clinch throws in the system of which you speak are no gi adaptations of judo takedowns? There are 67 of them in total and the overlap between these and wrestling takedowns tends to blur the lines at times. That doesn't mean judo > wrestling for no gi but judo is very much adaptable to no gi, far more so than many people credit it.

Also, while chances of you encountering someone wearing a thick kimono is slim, chances of that same person trying to use your clothing against you in some way are quite high and countering that is where judo has all other martial arts beat hands down. In MMA class I've even had wrestlers who only really train in bodylocks try to grab my shirt just out of basic instinct, which leads me to believe that grip counters are very useful for a lot more than just doing randori with other judoka.

As for the precision argument, yes to execute a judo throw PERFECTLY requires a lot of precision but oftentimes you can fight through a slight misstep and get the takedown anyway, that's not at all uncommon, especially against other skilled practitioners. I mean, compare it to wrestling for example. A textbook double leg takedown executed with perfect precision will result in you elevating your opponent up to around shoulder level and dropping him on his clavicle with his feet flying over his head and all of your weight coming down on his ribs...but how many double leg takedowns actually go like that in competition? Very few, they typically tend to struggle for coming as close as they can get which is often not close at all. It's the same as judo, the most coveted O Goshi is the textbook picture perfect one-shot ippon but more often than not you will meet resistance that will throw you off balance or force you to reposition in order to stifle a counter that prevents you from executing it the way you want and you end up having to fight and adapt and just worry about getting the guy over your hip as opposed to perfection.

 

[elder999]

There's zero Judo throws in there because the chances of you encountering someone wearing a thick kimono is pretty slim.

THere are judo throws in BJJ-always have been-they just aren't practiced by a majority of academies. They do find their way into BJJ competition, in modified form. Case in point, here's a compiliation of morote seoi nage and morote seoi otoshi ippons from judo competitions:

And here (at about 2:10) is Rudolfo Viera executing morote seoi otoshi in competition. Note how he's modified it to reduce risk of giving up the back and losing points or getting submitted-he's basically changed the angles, ala just about everything in Basically Just Judo.....

(this was a pretty awesome match, btw....)

 

[Hanzou]

Not "lying." It's called hype.

Can't help that you believe it.

(Really. I mean, just how many "street fights," or occasions for self defense, single combat or otherwise, have you been involved in over the past year?

If the answer is more than......."none"....you fail.

It's more than none. And in that more than none I had to use my training to get out of that situation because I was knocked to the ground with a larger person on top of me. I believe it because I've experienced it. And frankly given the number of street fights and SD situations out there, the methodology and philosophy behind Gjj makes a whole lot of sense.

No, and no.

They don't require anymore "precision" than any other takedown-they require practice, practice, practice, and internalization of principles.

Yet there are untrained people who can perform an effective ankle pick or DLT. Heck, I picked up a takedown from Dan Henderson online because it was stupidly simple. Wrestling takedowns are just far more simpler to perform than text book Judo throws. I can't believe that you're trying to argue this.

They don't require "strong, loose clothing" to perform properly, they require understanding...if you "practice judo on the side," you should ask your sensei, because there are very few throws that actually require any clothing to perform if the person doing them understands them.



Case in point: uchi mata doesn't require clothing at all.

My argument wasn't that Uchi Mata didn't require clothing. My argument was that Uchi Mata is a lot more complex than an ankle pick.

Actually, in talking with some of the senior practitioners of BJJ, the reason the gyoku waza are de-emphasized in BJJ is because of the possibility of "giving up the back," a disadvantage in BJJ's sport rule set. That, and from what I've seen, most of them simply aren't equipped or trained to to practice them safely. There really aren't many differences between many wrestling takedowns and judo throws, other than what can be initiated offensively-some of them aren't practiced much by the other because of differing rule sets, and-as someone who wrestled and did judo in high school, I can say that much has always been true.....though it's even more true today.

Um, someone taking your back is a real danger in a self defense situation as well, not just within the Bjj sport ruleset. Wrestlers and even untrained people are going to go for your back if they have the opportunity, hence why people say you should never turn your back to someone in a SD situation or a street fight. Again, a highlight of Bjj being designed for a street fight or self defense over simply just sport.

Not defending it at all. How do you know, though,that it wasn't a demonstration of what not to do?

I disagree. Saying that I simply don't understand what Hatsumi was doing is a way to defend the deplorable technique in that video. Saying that its really a "What not to do" video is another form of defending him.

 

[Hanzou]

THere are judo throws in BJJ-always have been-they just aren't practiced by a majority of academies. They do find their way into BJJ competition, in modified form. Case in point, here's a compiliation of morote seoi nage and morote seoi otoshi ippons from judo competitions:

And here (at about 2:10) is Rudolfo Viera executing morote seoi otoshi in competition. Note how he's modified it to reduce risk of giving up the back and losing points or getting submitted-he's basically changed the angles, ala just about everything in Basically Just Judo.....

(this was a pretty awesome match, btw....)

FYI, Viera trains in Judo. I think he's either a brown belt or a black belt.

 

[Hanzou]

A few things I disagree with here.

O goshi, Harai Goshi, and Sukui Nage are examples of judo takedowns that are easy to adapt to no gi. I'm wondering how many of those clinch throws in the system of which you speak are no gi adaptations of judo takedowns? There are 67 of them in total and the overlap between these and wrestling takedowns tends to blur the lines at times. That doesn't mean judo > wrestling for no gi but judo is very much adaptable to no gi, far more so than many people credit it.

Many of them are indeed no-gi modifications of Judo throws/takedowns. Bjj came from Judo after all, and it came from a Judo practitioner who had a history of NHB competition and consistent run-ins with catch wrestlers and street fighters. So him adapting the gi throws to no-gi makes plenty of sense.

Also, while chances of you encountering someone wearing a thick kimono is slim, chances of that same person trying to use your clothing against you in some way are quite high and countering that is where judo has all other martial arts beat hands down. In MMA class I've even had wrestlers who only really train in body locks try to grab my shirt just out of basic instinct, which leads me to believe that grip counters are very useful for a lot more than just doing randori with other judoka.

And that's simply not our approach. In our system if someone is close enough to grab your clothing, they're close enough to start punching you. We close distance and go for a clinch instead of having someone push/pull us via our clothing. We view that as simply far too risky. Better to wrap them up with a clinch and then perform a takedown from that clinch. Our takedowns are also extremely simple and fairly easy to perform.

As for the precision argument, yes to execute a judo throw PERFECTLY requires a lot of precision but oftentimes you can fight through a slight misstep and get the takedown anyway, that's not at all uncommon, especially against other skilled practitioners. I mean, compare it to wrestling for example. A textbook double leg takedown executed with perfect precision will result in you elevating your opponent up to around shoulder level and dropping him on his clavicle with his feet flying over his head and all of your weight coming down on his ribs...but how many double leg takedowns actually go like that in competition? Very few, they typically tend to struggle for coming as close as they can get which is often not close at all. It's the same as judo, the most coveted O Goshi is the textbook picture perfect one-shot ippon but more often than not you will meet resistance that will throw you off balance or force you to reposition in order to stifle a counter that prevents you from executing it the way you want and you end up having to fight and adapt and just worry about getting the guy over your hip as opposed to perfection.

Again, my point is that even a sloppy DLT can be brutally effective, which is partly why the IJF banned it from competition. You can screw up several aspects of the DLT and it'll still take someone to the floor. You simply don't have that level of cushion in Judo throws which require a great deal of technique to pull off properly, and as stated earlier, if not performed properly can leave you wide open for punishment.

 

[elder999]

I disagree. Saying that I simply don't understand what Hatsumi was doing is a way to defend the deplorable technique in that video. Saying that its really a "What not to do" video is another form of defending him.

Not "defending him." Saying I don't know, and neither do you.

FYI, Viera trains in Judo. I think he's either a brown belt or a black belt.

Yeah, I knew that.

 

[elder999]

It's more than none.

you fail.

 

[Hanzou]

Not "defending him." Saying I don't know, and neither do you.

Really? So you're saying you can't tell good technique from bad technique?

Speak for yourself please.

Yeah, I knew that.

Then how can you say that Rodolfo is pulling Judo throws out of his Bjj training if he's actually training Judo separately to learn those throws?