Why do TMAs have more difficulty in the ring/octagon?

[RTKDCMB]

Back to my point; You have never knocked anyone out with a neck strike, and I'm willing to bet that you've never actually hit someone on the side of the neck at full force without pads. Would that assumption be correct?

So how do you figure that your ability to do something that you've never actually done exceeds or equals my ability to do something I've done many, many times?

That is like saying that no one can tell if shooting someone in the head with a gun will kill them or not just because they have never actually shot someone in the head before.

You do not have to hit actually hit someone in the neck with a full power strike to know if it will will be effective when you have seen and felt the power on pads and have applied it in sparring, which I have done hundreds and even thousands of times. Why is that such a difficult concept for you to grasp?

 

[drop bear]

That is like saying that no one can tell if shooting someone in the head with a gun will kill them or not just because they have never actually shot someone in the head before.

You do not have to hit actually hit someone in the neck with a full power strike to know if it will will be effective when you have seen and felt the power on pads and have applied it in sparring, which I have done hundreds and even thousands of times. Why is that such a difficult concept for you to grasp?

Lol. It would be like relying on never having an accurate account of a head shot death


OK. Let's use a bjj example. So that i can insult all styles equally. The single arm guard pass. Kind of works was a go to move for ages. but testing found it is too easily countered and runs the risk of a triangle choke.

Oh but I have single armed passed people all the time and don't get caught. The. The other guy needs to do better triangles.

Feeling good on the pads by the way does not translate to effective against resistance. You know what feels good on the pads? Gigantic bomb shots. They feel awsome on a pad. No reason to throw anything else.

Don't work so well against a guy who is hitting back. Because if he is good he will beat you up due to telegraphing.

Look we are talking what works in a mma context. That means against a trained fighter. Which negates a lot of moves working.

 

[RTKDCMB]

Feeling good on the pads by the way does not translate to effective against resistance. You know what feels good on the pads? Gigantic bomb shots. They feel awsome on a pad. No reason to throw anything else.

Don't work so well against a guy who is hitting back. Because if he is good he will beat you up due to telegraphing.

Gigantic bomb shots are very telegraphic, relatively uncontrolled, inaccurate, imprecise, inefficient and unfocussed. Knife hand strikes, when properly trained, are none of those things that is the reason to throw something else.

 

[jezr74]

And from there we say. OK. Let's see these real life examples so we can get a gist of what will work within context. Then take that to the lab and try to re create that effect consistently. See if we can refine that Take it back out to real life and test it out there.

But are we actually doing that?

Ask a bouncer what their industry training is like? Generally it is pretty unrealistic.

Or the bouncer that is a student takes it back to the dojo and works on it with others and adjusts then back to his night job to use when needed.

Not sure I understand, you don't think people in industries that require physical, often violent interaction with people don't try and improve on what they do?

Yeah but you are suggesting going off the data. And I don't think people do that. I did a thread here once about flying kicks for the street. I found five examples on YouTube of them working to at least achieve a result. The consensus is flying kicks wont work because of a whole bunch of preconceived ideas. Not the data.

http://www.martialtalk.com/forum/90-general-self-defense/114032-flying-kicks-streets.html

There is a consensus that instep or oblique kicking works in the street. I cannot find a street example of this kick working. The only example I could find was John Jones which is discounted because the ring is not a street. The one guy who can actually make that kick work is not the guy anybody looks at to how to set this kick up.



There is a lot of false data running around in martial arts and there are not that many people going out there and testing it.

Mma has a habit of being test monkies. Does ninja move xyz have validity? Let's get a guy try it a few times with the intent of stopping it. If it doesn't work it doesn't work.

And as to why some elements of tmas can not represent well in mma. They fail in the testing stage. And mma testing is ruthless. It upsets people.

Nope, I think the data can give people a direction on probability\speculation. It's even the core basis of this topic put forward. It's being speculated that TMA's have more difficulty in the octogon, based on no actual evidence. Using speculation and no real data, aside from data mining and some really statistically insignificant youtube clips.

I think people use experience of what works for them, unless a real study was made to determine this, anything else will be prone to confirmation bias and circular arguments, since it's all really speculative.

 

[Steve]

That would be a false dichotomy, there are other alternative experience. Maybe a LEO, Bouncer, Military, text book study the body, psychology etc. skill levels will vary.

As often as not, people Are not learning from a proper expert. Rather, they are learning from someone who has never used any of the techniques in a real world application.


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[jezr74]

As often as not, people Are not learning from a proper expert. Rather, they are learning from someone who has never used any of the techniques in a real world application.


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That's true, but its just another factor in the mix.

 

[Steve]

That's true, but its just another factor in the mix.

Ymmv, but it's s big one for me.


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[Hanzou]

That is like saying that no one can tell if shooting someone in the head with a gun will kill them or not just because they have never actually shot someone in the head before.

Actually its more like saying that we can't tell if you can shoot an advancing, moving target in the head because you've never shot a real gun before.

I don't doubt that someone could be seriously hurt or knocked out from a neck strike. What I doubt is that someone who has never actually struck someone in the neck at full force, or knocked someone unconscious could reliably perform such a movement under duress.

You do not have to hit actually hit someone in the neck with a full power strike to know if it will will be effective when you have seen and felt the power on pads and have applied it in sparring, which I have done hundreds and even thousands of times. Why is that such a difficult concept for you to grasp?

How exactly have you applied it in sparring? Unless you've used the strike at full force on the desired target, and the target in turn was knocked unconscious or killed you haven't really applied it in sparring.

 

[RTKDCMB]

Actually its more like saying that we can't tell if you can shoot an advancing, moving target in the head because you've never shot a real gun before.

I don't doubt that someone could be seriously hurt or knocked out from a neck strike. What I doubt is that someone who has never actually struck someone in the neck at full force, or knocked someone unconscious could reliably perform such a movement under duress.

That whole if you don't compete or do full contact sparring then you won't be able to apply your training under duress argument is a falsehood.

How exactly have you applied it in sparring? Unless you've used the strike at full force on the desired target, and the target in turn was knocked unconscious or killed you haven't really applied it in sparring.

 

[Steve]

That whole if you don't compete or do full contact sparring then you won't be able to apply your training under duress argument is a falsehood.

I agree. But I also think that the further away from someone who has actually walked the talk, the lower your chances of learning something practical. Just because my instructor can do something doesn't mean I can. And if I don't know for sure that I can do it, I'm damn sure not competent to teach others.

We've got experts here on this forum arguing vehemently that they are competent to teach others when they can't even know for sure that they can do it themselves.


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[K-man]

I agree. But I also think that the further away from someone who has actually walked the talk, the lower your chances of learning something practical. Just because my instructor can do something doesn't mean I can. And if I don't know for sure that I can do it, I'm damn sure not competent to teach others.

We've got experts here on this forum arguing vehemently that they are competent to teach others when they can't even know for sure that they can do it themselves.

If you were talking about taking a knife off someone, expert or not, you are in a lot of trouble. Even if you have done it before, you got lucky. There are no guarantees you will survive your next encounter.

If you are talking about hitting someone on the back of the neck with the forearm while they are bending over, which was my original finishing technique, then I would say even an MMA person who doesn't train to do it could pull it off. The bit about moving targets etc is BS added to confuse.
:asian:

 

[Hanzou]

That whole if you don't compete or do full contact sparring then you won't be able to apply your training under duress argument is a falsehood.

That isn't what I said. I said that you've never really done the technique on a fully resisting target, so that pushes your technique into a very low percentile of effectiveness in a situation of duress.

You definitely have a chance of knocking someone out with a neck strike, but its a very low chance. Almost in the range of a lucky shot. However, its certainly not on the level of chance that a grappler has of applying a choke on you. The adrenaline dump and other factors definitely contribute to it, but the main factor is that you've never actually hit someone in the neck at full force and knocked them out or killed them. Conversely, the grappler HAS choked out fully resisting opponents of various shapes and sizes, so they have some experience in what is required to strangle someone.

Like I said, it is possible to knock someone out with a neck strike, just like its possible to knock someone out by slapping them in the face. Would I depend on either to save me if some guy wants to do bad things to me? Probably not because I've never knocked someone out with a neck strike or a slap in the face before.

 

[RTKDCMB]

That isn't what I said. I said that you've never really done the technique on a fully resisting target, so that pushes your technique into a very low percentile of effectiveness in a situation of duress.

You definitely have a chance of knocking someone out with a neck strike, but its a very low chance. Almost in the range of a lucky shot. However, its certainly not on the level of chance that a grappler has of applying a choke on you. The adrenaline dump and other factors definitely contribute to it, but the main factor is that you've never actually hit someone in the neck at full force and knocked them out or killed them. Conversely, the grappler HAS choked out fully resisting opponents of various shapes and sizes, so they have some experience in what is required to strangle someone.

That is just your opinion, you think it is a very low percentage technique, has a very low chance and constitutes a 'lucky shot' because you don't train with it. Where I come from it is a basic technique taught from white belt. That whole the training goes out the window in a real fight is complete rubbish. The last fight I got into I had no trouble choosing what moves to use and did not experience any rush of adrenalin. None of the instructors and students who have gotten in to real fights have forgotten their training. You think that just because you have seen traditional martial artists in the early UFC just come out swinging wildly that that is the way it always happens, you are wrong.

 

[Hanzou]

That is just your opinion, you think it is a very low percentage technique, has a very low chance and constitutes a 'lucky shot' because you don't train with it.

It actually isn't my opinion, its a fact. Its one of the reasons Jigaro Kano removed striking from randori, and placed it in kata in Judo. You simply cannot train strikes at full speed and power without significant protection. You almost never see neck striking in general karate sparring. So you guys aren't even using it in sparring practice. How do you really expect to use that ability in a fight, much less be able to knock someone out with it?

Again, I said that you being able to knock someone out with that strike would constitute a lucky shot because you've never actually KO'd someone with a neck strike. You could probably perform the technique in a fight, that doesn't mean its going to give you the result that you desire. Just like you shooting a gun hoping to hit your target in the head. Since you've never actually shot a gun before, there's a very good chance you're going to completely miss your target. However, there's a very small chance that you'll hit your target right between the eyes.

Hence, the "lucky shot".

Where I come from it is a basic technique taught from white belt.

Which means little if you've never actually applied it.

EDIT: Quick question; Are you guys part of the same organization that is "no contact"?

 

[K-man]

It actually isn't my opinion, its a fact. Its one of the reasons Jigaro Kano removed striking from randori, and placed it in kata in Judo. You simply cannot train strikes at full speed and power without significant protection. You almost never see neck striking in general karate sparring. So you guys aren't even using it in sparring practice. How do you really expect to use that ability in a fight, much less be able to knock someone out with it?

Again, I said that you being able to knock someone out with that strike would constitute a lucky shot because you've never actually KO'd someone with a neck strike. You could probably perform the technique in a fight, that doesn't mean its going to give you the result that you desire. Just like you shooting a gun hoping to hit your target in the head. Since you've never actually shot a gun before, there's a very good chance you're going to completely miss your target. However, there's a very small chance that you'll hit your target right between the eyes.

Sorry, it is only your opinion, and a very shallow one at that. But at least you now acknowledge that our punches and strikes can be effective. Why don't you see neck striking in karate sparring? Exactly the same as you don't see RNCs in karate sparring. You might see an occasional Shuto thrown in but basically, without the clinching component you won't have the opportunity for forearm strikes to the back of the neck any more than you can apply the choke. Another reason is that the type of sparring you are calling 'karate sparring' is to prepare you for karate tournaments. A neck strike that connects would see you disqualified in point sparring. In our training we practise it all the time and I'm sure, before you say our training is not typical, that many other schools train in a similar way. Stop bagging other styles!

Your analogy of the gun is just as facile. I don't know any police or military personnel who shoot people in training. If you have a gun you handle the gun and you fire the gun on the range. Then when you have the situation where you have to use the gun there is a high probability its use will be effective, adrenalin effect accepted.

The RNC is equally likely to fail if the person trying to apply it had just read it in a book and never trained it. In the situation with the neck shot, we train to achieve the position for the neck shot the same as you train to achieve the position to apply a RNC. The only reason I raised forearm strikes to the back of the neck is because they are illegal in MMA but a big part of our training. I suppose they are illegal only because they are low percentage, nothing to do with potential harm.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

You simply cannot train strikes at full speed and power without significant protection ...

I have considered this issue for a long time. If you can't punch on your opponent's head, your sparring will not be realistic. If you do, you may lost your sparring partner next day. The following replacement are what I like to use to replace the "full powerful head punch".

If you can apply:

1. "封(Feng) – throat blocking"- palm push on your opponent's neck,
2. "抹(Mo) - eyebrow wiping" - palm push on top of your opponent's forehead.
3. "托(Tuo) – chin pushing"- palm push under your opponent's chin,
4. "摀(Wu) – face covering" - palm push on your opponent's whole face,

you can stop your opponent's forward momentum and also inform him that you can punch on his face with full force if you have to. IMO, this can be the next best training for "full speed and power head punch".

 

[Hanzou]

Sorry, it is only your opinion, and a very shallow one at that. But at least you now acknowledge that our punches and strikes can be effective. Why don't you see neck striking in karate sparring? Exactly the same as you don't see RNCs in karate sparring. You might see an occasional Shuto thrown in but basically, without the clinching component you won't have the opportunity for forearm strikes to the back of the neck any more than you can apply the choke.

Which makes your ability to perform such abilities in a dangerous situation highly unlikely.

Another reason is that the type of sparring you are calling 'karate sparring' is to prepare you for karate tournaments. A neck strike that connects would see you disqualified in point sparring. In our training we practise it all the time and I'm sure, before you say our training is not typical, that many other schools train in a similar way. Stop bagging other styles!

Are you hitting each other at full speed and power in the neck area?

Your analogy of the gun is just as facile. I don't know any police or military personnel who shoot people in training. If you have a gun you handle the gun and you fire the gun on the range. Then when you have the situation where you have to use the gun there is a high probability its use will be effective, adrenalin effect accepted.

The difference being that if you've never actually used the strike on a person in practice, its the equivalent of having never fired the gun in practice.

The RNC is equally likely to fail if the person trying to apply it had just read it in a book and never trained it. In the situation with the neck shot, we train to achieve the position for the neck shot the same as you train to achieve the position to apply a RNC.

The only way you're training the neck strikes the way I'm training the RNC is if you're blasting your training partners with blows to their necks at full speed, knocking them out, or killing them. If you guys aren't doing that, it isn't the same.

The only reason I raised forearm strikes to the back of the neck is because they are illegal in MMA but a big part of our training. I suppose they are illegal only because they are low percentage, nothing to do with potential harm.

That technique would be higher percentage for a professional fighter. Just like their RNC is a higher percentage than my RNC. A professional fighter trains more intensely than your typical martial artist does. That's simply a fact.

 

[Steve]

Actually its more like saying that we can't tell if you can shoot an advancing, moving target in the head because you've never shot a real gun before.

I don't doubt that someone could be seriously hurt or knocked out from a neck strike. What I doubt is that someone who has never actually struck someone in the neck at full force, or knocked someone unconscious could reliably perform such a movement under duress.



How exactly have you applied it in sparring? Unless you've used the strike at full force on the desired target, and the target in turn was knocked unconscious or killed you haven't really applied it in sparring.

This is the traditional martial arts fallacy at its root. It's, "My sifu or sensei can do x, and he taught me. so now I can do x." That's just not true. It's dangerously deluded, considering the subject matter is self defense. Truthfully, more often than not, it's really, "my insttuctor's instructor's instructor could do these things, and he taught that guy who taught this guy, and they told me that now I can do that thing, but I've never actually had to do it... But it's cool to be an instructor and I hope someday I can open my own school."

The technique may be perfectly sound, bit that doesn't mean you can do it. Maybe you can, but you don't know until you actually do it. And even if you can, that doesn't mean you're competent to teach someone else.




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[K-man]

Which makes your ability to perform such abilities in a dangerous situation highly unlikely.



Are you hitting each other at full speed and power in the neck area?



The difference being that if you've never actually used the strike on a person in practice, its the equivalent of having never fired the gun in practice.



The only way you're training the neck strikes the way I'm training the RNC is if you're blasting your training partners with blows to their necks at full speed, knocking them out, or killing them. If you guys aren't doing that, it isn't the same.



That technique would be higher percentage for a professional fighter. Just like their RNC is a higher percentage than my RNC. A professional fighter trains more intensely than your typical martial artist does. That's simply a fact.

:BSmeter:

 

[K-man]

This is the traditional martial arts fallacy at its root. It's, "My sifu or sensei can do x, and he taught me. so now I can do x." That's just not true. It's dangerously deluded, considering the subject matter is self defense. Truthfully, more often than not, it's really, "my insttuctor's instructor's instructor could do these things, and he taught that guy who taught this guy, and they told me that now I can do that thing, but I've never actually had to do it... But it's cool to be an instructor and I hope someday I can open my own school."

The technique may be perfectly sound, bit that doesn't mean you can do it. Maybe you can, but you don't know until you actually do it. And even if you can, that doesn't mean you're competent to teach someone else.

And apart from "MMA is great,the rest is s#|t", how is this not bagging other styles and what has it to do with the OP? Your comments keep feeding this nonsense even though I believe you know it is wrong.