When does rank become meaningless?

[Daniel Sullivan]

he just taught us the material for each gup rank and tested us when he thought we were ready, there was no set schedule and no testing fees.

That is how I do it in my school. I generally have a class every few months where I do a grading, letting students who will be testing know a couple of weeks ahead of time and give them a testing syllabus. I don't do anything off the wall at kyu gradings; just material that they have been working on.

 

[sfs982000]

That is how I do it in my school. I generally have a class every few months where I do a grading, letting students who will be testing know a couple of weeks ahead of time and give them a testing syllabus. I don't do anything off the wall at kyu gradings; just material that they have been working on.

I really enjoyed learning that way myself, I don't have a problem with having set testing schedules either, but as I've come to find out having set testing schedules can also be a conflict with some students. I've personally missed the last two gradings because they fell on my reserve weekends so I just keep plugging away until the schedules line up LOL.

 

[puunui]

Really rank is just an artificial system for a teacher to see where a student is in relation to his peers.

That and it tells you and others what your teacher thinks of you. If you have been training continuously for 30 years under the same teacher, and you have a low degree black belt, something is up, sort of like the situation with hattori hanzo and his assistant in the movie kill bill 1. That assistant was with hattori hanzo for 30 years, but did not make progress, resulting in a lot of insubordination, and resentment.

 

[puunui]

ive have seen 4th dans run to USAT or others to get a 7th Dan and call themselves GM's so they can attract more paying customers even 1st Dans going out and creating the illusion of higher rank to operate thier own Dojangs.

There is someone in your neck of the woods who did just that. I wonder if you are referring to him.

 

[puunui]

My sensei is a sixth dan renshi which, according to the strict interpretation of the rules and customs governing our art means that 3rd dan is as far as I am going for now, unless a panel is assembled for the purpose of promoting me. The only reason why that bothers me a little is that when my sensei passes and, if I so decide, I carry on teaching, then I shouldn't really even be grading people to shodan, let alone nidan

As a 3rd Dan are you authorized to promote students to dan rank? Of those active in my area, I am the highest kukkiwon certified practitioner, and one of my goals is to promote as many practitioners here to higher ranks, so if anything should happen to me, we can still carry on. Before I die, I want to have at least 12 kukkiwon 9th Dan here, hopefully more. Luckily, we have a lot of really skilled practitioners (national champions, national team members, world level medalists, olympians, national, international and olympic coaches, poomsae team members, poomsae world medalists, etc.) who have the talent and ability to progress to that level.

 

[Sukerkin]

It's little unclear to me, puunui. The tradition is that you can promote to three ranks lower than yourself if unsupported by others of similar grade. So my take is that as a third dan I am not permitted to promote someone to their first dan, should that circumstance ever arise. I shall have to enquire of my sensei at the weekend and get his views on the matter.

 

[ballen0351]

I think rank has more meaning to non martial artists or the ones just starting out. For example i have a friend that started his dojo in the late 70s as a brown belt. He went to to have a fairly profitable school thats still around today. I dont think today you could start a school and attract students if they walked in to see your school and you only had a brown belt. People believe the black belt is the end all be all. It would be hard for someone without knowledge of martial arts to think a brown belt could be a good teacher. I personally now could care less about rank id be willing to learn from anyone as long as they are teaching something worth learning.

 

[K-man]

Rank is both meaningful and meaningless at the same time.

It becomes unimportant when you either have all of the organizational rights that you need or when you reach a point in your personal journey that you no longer need rank to prop up your ego.

I think this is the best answer so far. Because of numerous differences of opinion I left the organisation I grew up with and set of independently with a loose affiliation that enabled me access to whatever training I thought was appropriate. Now I can teach what I like, add what I like and discard what I don't like. (I do make sure I adhere to the basic Goju framework.)

Once you have your black belt, in most cases, it is an indication you have put in the hard yards and have mastered the basics of your chosen style.

In the real world, to a large extent, it doesn't really matter what the rank you hold but more the ability you display. Within my profession we were encouraged to pursue CPD (Continuing Professional Development). In fact, if we didn't our registration could be cancelled. Martial Arts is no different. If you turn up to class regularly and progress through the ranks you can get to a reasonably high level without any great understanding of your art because even the best of teachers can't teach everything he/she knows in the limited time available in class. (I'm not talking here of technical ability. That is something you can learn in class.) IMO, if you haven't been able to identify your areas of weakness or lack of knowledge and spent the time researching ways of deepening your understanding, you will never get to a level where rank is unimportant. You will always be relying on another person to get you to the next level.

 

[Daniel Sullivan]

I think rank has more meaning to non martial artists or the ones just starting out.

I agree with you about new students, but I think that non MA-ists have so little understanding of the rank system, that all they really understand is belt colors and rank really doesn't mean much to them either.

Most are unaware that there are 'ranks' beyond simply obtaining the black belt or that there are some arts where there black does not represent the highest ranks and is followed by another belt color, or that some styles either use a different color (one TSD org uses navy) or don't use any belts whatsoever.

They just think that a black belt means that you can fight, which isn't really the same as rank.

 

[Cougar]

Naturally everyone has an opinion and every once in a while there is a consensus. For me personally, rank lost significance after I had been a serious practicioner for about four years. (That was about 42 years ago). Rank is a tool to help students set a goal, but is not the end of the journey. Sure, you can use rank to establish curriculum and decide which material comes with that level, but reaching past techniques and nuts and bolts moves to the essence of the martial arts principles and the life lessons from martial arts is the true goal for me. My students are told that if all they want is a black belt then I will give them one for $5. If they want to get into technique and go deeper to understand not just what they are doing but to establish ownership of it and understand why they are doing it, they are in the right place. Rank will come.

 

[ballen0351]

Yeah when i said non martial artists i believe they give tooooo much meaning to a black belt they dont understand that i can open a dojo
Tomorrow call my style takeya money fu and claim im a grand master and wear a black belt they wouldnt question it they would believe that black belt means i really am a master even if im full of it. Where somone thats knows better knows a black belt is juat another step along the way and depending on the school might not be worth the fabric the belts made of.

I agree with you about new students, but I think that non MA-ists have so little understanding of the rank system, that all they really understand is belt colors and rank really doesn't mean much to them either.

Most are unaware that there are 'ranks' beyond simply obtaining the black belt or that there are some arts where there black does not represent the highest ranks and is followed by another belt color, or that some styles either use a different color (one TSD org uses navy) or don't use any belts whatsoever.

They just think that a black belt means that you can fight, which isn't really the same as rank.

 

[puunui]

It's little unclear to me, puunui. The tradition is that you can promote to three ranks lower than yourself if unsupported by others of similar grade. So my take is that as a third dan I am not permitted to promote someone to their first dan, should that circumstance ever arise. I shall have to enquire of my sensei at the weekend and get his views on the matter.

Does your sensei intend to retire any time soon? If so, I would think there is or should be some sort of succession plan in place. Succession plans can vary. Sometimes the teacher wants a student to take over their actual school location. Other times the teacher can designate from his higher ranked students who have their own schools. I don't know how it would work in your particular situation, but I would politely discuss the subject with him if you are concerned about it. No one wants to be left swinging in the wind without a support system in place.

 

[Daniel Sullivan]

Yeah when i said non martial artists i believe they give tooooo much meaning to a black belt they dont understand that i can open a dojo
Tomorrow call my style takeya money fu and claim im a grand master and wear a black belt they wouldnt question it they would believe that black belt means i really am a master even if im full of it. Where somone thats knows better knows a black belt is juat another step along the way and depending on the school might not be worth the fabric the belts made of.

Pretty much. Though you might have to alter the spelling of 'money'; that's the one thing that the general public does understand.

 

[puunui]

I think rank has more meaning to non martial artists or the ones just starting out. For example i have a friend that started his dojo in the late 70s as a brown belt. He went to to have a fairly profitable school thats still around today. I dont think today you could start a school and attract students if they walked in to see your school and you only had a brown belt. People believe the black belt is the end all be all. It would be hard for someone without knowledge of martial arts to think a brown belt could be a good teacher. I personally now could care less about rank id be willing to learn from anyone as long as they are teaching something worth learning.

We have BJJ teachers here with their own schools with brown belt ranking. I think it is because there are so few black belts and the demand for instruction in BJJ is overwhelming.

 

[andyjeffries]

As a student I'd much rather study under a solid 3rd or 4th Dan than a mediocore 5th or 6th Dan.

It depends what you mean by solid/mediocre. If you mean as a martial artist or as an instructor. If the former (their own physical skill) then I would take the mediocre 6th Dan over a solid 3rd Dan as they will have learnt lessons from teaching over many more years and may have helpful advice on improving techniques. Sure, they may not be as physically capable (any more?) but they have a lot more experience within the teaching ranks.

Also a mediocre 6th Dan (mediocre meaning average compared to their rank peers) is still much better than a solid (meaning above average) 3rd Dan when you are comparing them with peers of the same rank. Taking children as an example, an average/mediocre 6 year old is smarter than a smart 3 year old

Of course, I may be reading your post completely wrong.

To answer the OP, I would say whether rank is meaningless depends on the situation. If you are talking about becoming a higher level instructor certified then you require a higher rank (I'm thinking of the Kukkiwon Foreign Instructor Course in Taekwondo, to get the higher classes you need the lower class certificate and a higher rank). If you want to help your students get higher rank (so they can open their own dojangs or promote their students to higher rank so they can open their dojangs) then you need higher rank. On a business level, if there are other competing dojangs in your area then having a higher rank helps your business. On a day-to-day in the dojang basis, it doesn't matter.

 

[Grasshopper22]

It depends what you mean by 'meaningless' but if you mean when the person of that rank doesn't really think about it/care what belt he has, then I think it depends on the person. Obviously if you're a 7th Dan or something and you've been that belt for 5 or 6 years then you'd probably be so used to it you'd pretty much forget about your next grading as it would be so distant in the future.

 

[ks - learning to fly]

I believe that one's belt level (rank) is a bi-product of the work they've done and certainly not meaningless...Thankfully, I've also been taught that regardless of what belt I am, I am also all the previous belts too...meaning - that there is always something more to learn, never to become satisfied or comfortable with where I'm at. I believe it's important to recognize your individual weaknesses and make a solid, conscious effort to turn them into strengths...the constant, endless pursuit of perfection - not just of physical performance, but of character as well...while we may never reach total perfection - the honor lies in the pursuit and the journey.

***bows*** Kris :ultracool

 

[puunui]

It depends what you mean by solid/mediocre. If you mean as a martial artist or as an instructor. If the former (their own physical skill) then I would take the mediocre 6th Dan over a solid 3rd Dan as they will have learnt lessons from teaching over many more years and may have helpful advice on improving techniques. Sure, they may not be as physically capable (any more?) but they have a lot more experience within the teaching ranks.

For korean martial arts, 6th Dans should be in their prime, where everything comes together, and where everything you do seems to work.

 

[Kwan Jang]

I'm currently training for my 7th dan test in a few weeks. My instructors are finally moving up to eighth dan, so my group can move on up. We do have serious curriculum for each dan level and I have put in a LOT of work for the past 18 months getting ready for this. Many of my peers are in need of surgery after this test to repair the damage done in training for it. BTW, I am not trying to brag about that fact nor do I feel it's anything I SHOULD brag about. It's just that I feel that rank only means as much as how hard you have to work for it. I have been doing mostly two-a-days for the last year, really strict on my nutrition, doing weight training, cardio, ect. and am expected by my instructors to be in my all time best shape for my test.

Our curriculum is diverse enough that if it weren't for testing, I slack on certain parts of the training. I work my grappling and MMA all the time unless injured. I will work my kickboxing and boxing at least a few times a week when not testing, and even work on my TKD kicking and even forms at least once a week. When I don't have testing coming up, I never seem to find the time to work on the weapons that are part of our curriculum with some exception to the escrima/arnis stick and knife work and even that part is no where near the level of some of our other guys. Until testing was on the horizon, I probably hadn't practiced with a bo staff in 5-6 years (and Tadashi Yamashita is judging our Kobudo...no pressure). I'm a training fanatic for the most part and have placed/won medals in No-Gi Competition in the Expert or Black Belt divisions at one world grappling championship and two world jiu-jitsu championships over the past two years despite being the oldest fighter in my division every time I fight by several years. But my KJN's expect us to be able to box like a boxer, kickbox like a Muay Thai fighter, grapple at least to BJJ purple belt standards, tie it all together and do ground striking like an MMA fighter, do stick and knife work like a very good Escrimador, and have at least good basic Kobudo skills.

Man, I am tired. But, the way I have pushed myself for this, I will be very proud of this rank. However, I know to my students and their families (or potential students in the future), all that matters to them is what I can do for them or their children. And IMO, that is how it should be.

 

[puunui]

I'm currently training for my 7th dan test in a few weeks.

In what art will you be testing for 7th Dan?