What qualifies someone to promote a student to Black Belt?

[ace]

?????

 

[Master of Blades]

Originally posted by ace
?????

I love this guy.......hes probably the only dude on Martial Talk who can prove his point or ask a question in ten words or less :rofl:

 

[ace]

Originally posted by Master of Blades
I love this guy.......hes probably the only dude on Martial Talk who can prove his point or ask a question in ten words or less :rofl:

Short & Sweet
:asian:

 

[Master of Blades]

Originally posted by ace
Short & Sweet
:asian:

LOL a perfect example right there. To Ace everybody :cheers:

 

[James Kovacich]

Originally posted by Mya Ryu Jitsu
Crazy Chihuahua,

I think that sums up the whole purpose of why I started this post in the first place. Ultimately all of us received rank from someone with higher rank and authority, who received rank from someone with higher rank and authority and on up the line from someone at the top of the ladder who didn't have rank or authority to begin with.

As I stated above, either the founder gave himself rank and authority or someone in another style/system gave him permission and/or recognition to have rank and authority. It had to start somewhere and flow down hill.

That is why I question anyone who takes issue with a founder/Grandmaster/Master etc that grants a rank in his/her style/system to someone outside his/her style or system based on that individuals knowledge, ability, skill, contributions to the MA's, reputation etc. Be it honorary or otherwise. The whole purpose is to recognize hard work and achievments. It's all just paper anyway that indicates to others something earned.

As they say, It's the person that wears the belt...not the belt that wears the person. If someone you respect feels you have earned the right to be a Nidan...who is anyone here to dispute that? Go git em :karate:

I didn't see that coming. I agree with you there and apparrently there are other wise individuals out there that understand whats good for the arts.

An example is one of my instructors is going to bat for me and my system. He knows that its better to guide and have some influence over whats being taught out there, than to let the arts "just run its course" by sitting back and doing nothing.

 

[Crazy Chihuahua]

Of course, none of us should just sit back and enjoy the ride. We have all taken so much from so many people and from our systems. You have to give back. You should never feel like you have to give back to the person who helped you, just appreciate their help and show them that you respect the help they gave by giving back to another person who needs you. This is how we strengthen the art. And I'm sorry if that's too long, but it's right and I felt it needed to be said.

 

[Shinzu]

i am a second degree and i still don't feel that i alone could promote someone. it's just the way i feel. i would feel more comfortable if i was 3rd dan, but that won't be for another 3 years.

i would rather examine someone with a board of executives. sometimes you miss things that other see and vice versa.

 

[pesilat]

Originally posted by Shinzu
i am a second degree and i still don't feel that i alone could promote someone. it's just the way i feel. i would feel more comfortable if i was 3rd dan, but that won't be for another 3 years.

i would rather examine someone with a board of executives. sometimes you miss things that other see and vice versa.

I think your relationship to the candidate has some influence on this. If the person is your student and you see him and work with him on a regular basis, then your testing of him is really more a symbolic rite of passage. You'll know if he's ready to be promoted before the test even starts. And, in fact, if you didn't feel he was ready, you wouldn't be testing him to begin with. The test is kind of a tempering. It's a tangible event that the student can use to mark his progress in his own memory. And I think it's important. And if the guy completely chokes and gives up then it shoudl be possible for him to fail the test. But that should be a pretty rare thing.

If, on the other hand, you're put into a position where you're expected to test someone you don't know or who you haven't worked with regularly - not sure why you'd be put in such a position, but I suppose it's possible - then you'd have to be worried about missing something in his performance.

But, the bottom line is that if you're not comfortable with it, then you're not comfortable with it and you shouldn't do it until you are comfortable with it. Because your discomfort will almost guarantee that you'll screw up - or, at least, you'll think you screwed up and it'll be unnecessary stress for you.

Mike

 

[Rich Parsons]

I think it should depend upon your system and what they have set down for guide lines.

I also think promoting up to one level below you rank is a good rulle to follow. THere are special cases in which this may not work.
Such as the old head of the system dies, and there is no clear new head, yet the students band together and elected or promote someone from 8th to 9th degree to be the top man. Or 10th if that is the case.


Now, if you do not feel comfortable, promoting alone, I think this is a good feeling. Invite some of your peers in and have them sit on the board with you. This will also help to kepp yourself honest.

Just my thoughts.

:asian:

 

[Shinzu]

it's not that i am uncomfortable with myself or my knowledge. i know i can be a fair judge and a very compitent one also. i just feel that it should not be done alone. there is so much that should go into testing someone for his/her black belt. one person can not simply see everything every second. i would feel more comfortable testing people i do not know, but on the other hand i would not let a fellow student cloud my judgement either.

 

[Rich Parsons]

Originally posted by Shinzu
it's not that i am uncomfortable with myself or my knowledge. i know i can be a fair judge and a very compitent one also. i just feel that it should not be done alone. there is so much that should go into testing someone for his/her black belt. one person can not simply see everything every second. i would feel more comfortable testing people i do not know, but on the other hand i would not let a fellow student cloud my judgement either.

Well in my opinion you have a sound basis for what you want and how to execute it. Good for you!

I hope you did not take my comments wrong. For I think we are in agreement. I just may not have said so clearly.

:asian:

 

[Shinzu]

Originally posted by Rich Parsons
Well in my opinion you have a sound basis for what you want and how to execute it. Good for you!

I hope you did not take my comments wrong. For I think we are in agreement. I just may not have said so clearly.

:asian:

no i did not take what you said the wrong way. i agree with you also...much respect:asian:

 

[A.R.K.]

Very good input and insight here folks

Lots of diversity as well. This is why I do not get bent out of shape so to speak with regards to Dan rank. It is all highly subjective. To me, as long as the individual has truly earned it, that is all that matters. What determines whether they have earned it or not? To me, it would be practical ability as well as knowledge.

I'm sure we all have heard stories of BB's getting their clocks cleaned. Did they earn their rank? Well, in many cases they probably did yet had no practical experience. I'm sure we all know people with no rank or formal training yet they can handle themselves quite well in an actual confrontation. So we see the two extremes of the spectrum here.

If someone gains rank from someone not of their system...but has practical ability and even knowledge and the ability to teach if applicable, why should I be concerned? If someone gains rank via a media resource i.e. video etc...but has practical ability etc, why should I be concerned? I don't see where it 'cheapens' the art if he/she can perform. If they cannot however that is a different story. BUT to be honest...what official rule has been broken? I'm just putting tidbits out here for us to consider, reflect on and comment on. Your opinion may vary and that is welcome as are your comments why

My main point I suppose is that rank is highly subjective, has no universal standard and causes far to many people to lose sleep over that which really they have no control over anyway.

I'm curious, how many people would be comfortable with never wearing a belt again during training if they were allowed? How many don't wear one now? Not looking for controversy, only stimulating interest and opinions. Thanks again for all the great commentary here. :asian:

 

[pesilat]

Originally posted by Mya Ryu Jitsu
I'm curious, how many people would be comfortable with never wearing a belt again during training if they were allowed? How many don't wear one now? Not looking for controversy, only stimulating interest and opinions. Thanks again for all the great commentary here. :asian:

I almost never wear a symbol of rank (though I am planning to get "Guru Mike" embroidered on some of my school shirts simply because I think it'll look more professional to visitors).

The only times I wear a symbol of rank are at "formal" events (i.e.: promotions and such) or when I've been asked to wear it by my instructor (which rarely happens) or by the host of a seminar I've been invited to teach. Generally, though, I don't wear any symbol of rank. I prefer to let my skill and abilities speak for themselves.

Occasionally, I run into people (usually at seminars where I'm training) who assume that since I'm wearing sweats, t-shirt, and no belt that I know nothing. And occasionally, they're jackasses and get all cocky with me because their wearing a pretty uniform. I generally just try to avoid them and go about my training. On the rare occasion that these yahoos end up as my training partner, I usually explain my disapproval of their attitude in a non-violent way and they shape up pretty quickly

Mike

 

[GaryM]

Originally posted by pesilat
Well, to me, this is common sense. A school of Optometry can't grant a doctorate in Osteopathy. And if they did, no one in the field would recognize it as legitimate.

And I think that brings up the dual nature of rankings. A person can claim to be any rank they want. And they may have legitimately earned that rank from a legitimate instructor. But their peers are going to judge them on their ability to perform, not on what color belt/sash they wear or what a piece of paper says.

You're absolutely right that, at some point, all systems were new creations. I think, though, that titles are, over time, earned or lost on the merit of actions.

Example (using generic terminology for purposes of illustration):
A person starts teaching in his back yard. His students start calling him "instructor" because he teaches them and they respect him and cherish what they learn from him.
At some point, he deems some of those students ready to go teach. It's not done on "authority" ... it's just that he feels they're at a place in their development where they'll learn more from teaching than they can learn in similar time as students.
Now, these people earn the title "instructor" from their students and, much like the title "grandfather" is earned, the head instructor becomes a "master instructor" because he's an "instructor of instructors."
This process repeats and he earns the title (through having propogated this lineage) of "grandmaster." But the title is given to him by his students and their students.

On the flip side, he starts teaching and calls himself "grandmaster." If he's good and he produces good students, then, eventually, his "progeny" will use the term respectfully. He's "earned" the title. So, by using it to begin with, he's kind of "buying it on credit." If he doesn't produce good students and a lineage (pay his "debtors") then the lineage will die and he'll be nothing more than a "legend in his own mind."

That's basically the way that I perceive it.





Mike

I think you've hit the nail on the head. Ultimately your students promote you. Of course there is the exception to that rule as seen in moo quann eight martial arts taught as one cow pie, but excepting the one born every minute if you aren't real then you won't last and neither will your lineage.

 

[A.R.K.]

Pesilat,

Occasionally, I run into people (usually at seminars where I'm training) who assume that since I'm wearing sweats, t-shirt, and no belt that I know nothing. And occasionally, they're jackasses and get all cocky with me because their wearing a pretty uniform. I generally just try to avoid them and go about my training. On the rare occasion that these yahoos end up as my training partner, I usually explain my disapproval of their attitude in a non-violent way and they shape up pretty quickly

I know the feeling. Have a few folks around here that look like a walking Martial Arts advertisement with all the patches. Something I have really gotten away from. I like patches, but on a board or display from good people I know or associate with. I to prefer a good pair of sweats and a comfortable shirt. And no belt.

 

[ydma1796]

Originally posted by Crazy Chihuahua
You may be right, but when they do, I'll have an answer for them, and it will go thus: "I worked hard for twelve years to become a black belt. Regardless of my age, no one can take away the blood sweat and tears that went into that rank. I was promoted to 2nd degree when our system underwent curriculum restructuring which allowed me to qualify a year early because of my knowledge. I have been blessed with a small amount of talent, and that small affinity allowed me to prepare quickly and perform to the best of my ablilty and acheive a coveted position in my art. But I earned it, this was not a hand-out."

Very well put... words well beyond your years. And I'm sure a very well earned rank. I salute you :asian:

Originally posted by Mya Ryu Jitsu I'm curious, how many people would be comfortable with never wearing a belt again during training if they were allowed? How many don't wear one now? Not looking for controversy, only stimulating interest and opinions. Thanks again for all the great commentary here. :asian: [/B]

I've found that not wearing rank (the entire class) helps the newer students to relax when it comes to working with others. I believe it's less stress when partnered with a more advanced student. Has anyone else in a more relaxed environment noticed this?

Thanks
Kevin :asian:

 

[A.R.K.]

I've found that not wearing rank (the entire class) helps the newer students to relax when it comes to working with others. I believe it's less stress when partnered with a more advanced student. Has anyone else in a more relaxed environment noticed this?

Thats a good point. And I've noticed a positive difference when we don't bother with the belts and such. I constantly stress to my students to train for the knowledge and skills and not the recognition of a piece of cloth.

:asian:

 

[TKDman]

I don't know, let me check my Sam's Choice Black Belt user manual.

 

[yilijunior]

In YiLiChuan we wear either a black or white gi or yifu, with the option of wearing a belt or sash. We are allowed the YiLi emblem on the left breast and a m.a. related patch on the left shoulder if desired (most I've seen don't have this). This looks nice and respectable, and avoids the walking billboard look. We feel the uniform makes the student feel more business-like when it comes to training and the belt reminds them of all the hard work they've put into their training so far; it also allows instructors from the other clubs know at a glance where a student is in their training. I wear mine frequently at home for training, in addition to the training hall; I feel more ready to go with it on.
Jeremy