Age limit for Black Belts?

[capuchin]

I would like to know everyone's input on this one, do you believe that there should be an age limit for someone to be promoted to a Black Belt??? I just read on another martial arts forum about a 9 year old testing for his Black Belt. Can a 9 year old kid really have the knowledge that a Black Belt should have??? Can a 9 year old kid have the maturity level that a Black Belt should have??? Can a 9 year old kid have the control a Black Belt should have??? Can a 9 year old kid understand the potential for damage of what they are doing??? I personally wouldn't promote anyone under the age of 16. That's just my opinion though, I would very much like to hear everyone elses opinion.:asian:

With honor and respect,
KenpoDragon

My son is 6 years old and just received his first black belt in TKD

 

[mrt2]

I am not a big believer in little kid Martial Arts. And yet, my new Dojang has a lot of them. Clearly, there is more money in little kid classes than in adult training. And of the adults there, a significant chunk of them started because their kids were already enrolled. So I look at it this way. I am there for my own reasons, but he kids are clearly what is keeping the doors open at a lot of dojangs.

And as others have said, you can slow down the curriculum, but if you take 7 or 8 year olds, some of them will be black belts by age 11 or 12. And if you want them to stay, you cannot just stop them at brown belt and expect them to stick around for 5 or 6 years. It is a conundrum.

 

[Buka]

My son is 6 years old and just received his first black belt in TKD

Welcome to Martialtalk, Capuchin.

 

[Headhunter]

My son is 6 years old and just received his first black belt in TKD

Sorry completely against that. A 6 year old is no way mentally or physically strong enough to even be considered a black belt. In my opinion that's totally wrong

 

[pdg]

My son is 6 years old and just received his first black belt in TKD

 

[Headhunter]

View attachment 21372

Not obvious at all there's loads of stories of 6 year old black belts

 

[JR 137]

I empathize with both sides of the argument. Being a grades 4-9 science teacher, I’ve had quite a few students who are “black belts.” Whenever I hear it, I cringe and my inner voice says “no you’re not.” Then I think who am I to judge? I’ve never seen them on the dojo floor nor in an actual physical confrontation. I think of plenty adults that aren’t really worthy of the pedestal of sorts that I sometimes put the rank on. But I still always come back to “no you’re not.”

I’m all for kids staying motivated in the MA, regardless of the style. If earning that rank is going to keep them motivated, then it’s not all bad. If that was going to keep my kids in karate, then I’d be ok with it. But at the same time, I’d be telling myself that they’re not really black belts and disliking the whole concept of it.

The organization I’m in has junior black belts. Looking at the syllabus, they’re initially most comparable to an adult 4th kyu with one or two 3rd kyu things. I think the junior black belt age requirement is around 12 years old. I don’t think it would be possible to earn it younger than that due to time in grade and syllabus if they started at the minimum age of 6 for junior students.

Junior black belts have levels in our organization. They first get a plain black belt with the white stripe through the length of it. As they bridge the gap in the syllabus, the belt gets more and more embroidery. After some material, they’ll get the school’s kanji on one side. After more, they’ll get their name embroidered on the other side. Then they’ll get a dan stripe embroidered. To the best of my knowledge, they’re formally tested for these “promotions” if that’s the right word, but they’re not charged. Most kids don’t get all the way through this because they usually turn 16 and test for adult shodan beforehand. I think it’s a great way to keep the kids learning and not put them into some sort of holding pattern between junior black belt and adult black belt.

But no matter what way it’s done, I’m not a fan of junior black belt. When I start my own organization and make the rules, which will never happen, kids will wear a gray belt instead. Same material and requirements, different color so there’s no confusion about what you are and aren’t.

Until I’m the head honcho and everyone else’s rank is my business, I’ll continue to train and only worry about my own rank. Quite frankly, I don’t worry about my own rank very much either.

 

[skribs]

Does a black belt mean a fighter or a martial artist?

A black belt, to me, means someone has the discipline and dedication to learn and understand the material to receive their black belt. At my school some people get their black belt in 2 1/2 years and some get it in 7 years, but everyone who gets a black belt has shown understanding of the curriculum for each test, and improvement in skills over time.

Systems where rank is determined solely by ability are more like sports brackets than martial arts ranks to me.

 

[CB Jones]

I empathize with both sides of the argument. Being a grades 4-9 science teacher, I’ve had quite a few students who are “black belts.” Whenever I hear it, I cringe and my inner voice says “no you’re not.” Then I think who am I to judge? I’ve never seen them on the dojo floor nor in an actual physical confrontation. I think of plenty adults that aren’t really worthy of the pedestal of sorts that I sometimes put the rank on. But I still always come back to “no you’re not.”

I’m all for kids staying motivated in the MA, regardless of the style. If earning that rank is going to keep them motivated, then it’s not all bad. If that was going to keep my kids in karate, then I’d be ok with it. But at the same time, I’d be telling myself that they’re not really black belts and disliking the whole concept of it.

I disagree.

So while many kids might not have the focus or dedication needed to get to a black belt level as a youth...I do think a small number do. And its is wrong to arbitrarily discount or dismiss that achievement.

 

[pdg]

I disagree.

So while many kids might not have the focus or dedication needed to get to a black belt level as a youth...I do think a small number do. And its is wrong to arbitrarily discount or dismiss that achievement.

This is where the argument crosses with the upper age limit thread.

Age can sometimes be an indication, or it can be irrelevant - as long as there are exceptions to the rule then (in this type of case) the rule shouldn't really exist.

If an 8 year old can demonstrate compliance to a pass level with the requirements laid down, why should they be excluded based solely on age? (Replace 8 with 83 if you like)

This also rolls back around to the "what does a black belt mean" argument, and the view that some styles/people asign a BB pinacle status, while others view it as a starting point...

 

[Gerry Seymour]

I disagree.

So while many kids might not have the focus or dedication needed to get to a black belt level as a youth...I do think a small number do. And its is wrong to arbitrarily discount or dismiss that achievement.

I think that depends how you define "black belt level". If that means they are able to meet the technical requirements and hold their own in free sparring against folks about their own physical makeup, then some kids can definitely do that. If it means being able to hold their own against an average adult, almost no kids can do that - and likely none at age 6.

 

[CB Jones]

I think that depends how you define "black belt level". If that means they are able to meet the technical requirements and hold their own in free sparring against folks about their own physical makeup, then some kids can definitely do that. If it means being able to hold their own against an average adult, almost no kids can do that - and likely none at age 6.

Can they not hold their own against the average adult due to the lack of technique or the difference in size and strength?

Is a black belt a representation of ability to utilize martial art techniques and concepts or a representation of strength and size while utilizing martial arts techniques and concepts?

 

[Steve]

Black belt is arbitrary. It doesn’t have any intrinsic value. I have no problem with a 6year old black belt, as long as the standards are objective, and the child meets the standard.

It should be clear to everyone, particularly the parents, what that black belt means, with regards to actual, practical ability.

 

[CB Jones]

Black belt is arbitrary. It doesn’t have any intrinsic value. I have no problem with a 6year old black belt, as long as the standards are objective, and the child meets the standard.

It should be clear to everyone, particularly the parents, what that black belt means, with regards to actual, practical ability.

I agree 100%

At my son's school and org. black belt are awarded to youth but they have to test with the adults and do the exact same test as the adults with the same standards. Age is not taken into account in assessing the testers ability. Only difference is that during the sparring portion the youth fight other youth near their age. They are still required to fight a series of continuous sparring matches until the judges are satisfied that the standard of fighting has been met in each fight.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

Can they not hold their own against the average adult due to the lack of technique or the difference in size and strength?

Size and strength.

Is a black belt a representation of ability to utilize martial art techniques and concepts or a representation of strength and size while utilizing martial arts techniques and concepts?

That, Detective, is the right question (sort of).

To me, the question Jan whether a given rank is for skill in the art (I think that’s your first option, nearly), or for ability to use at an objective point. For that point to be objective, it needs a floor. If a kid’s BB is to be the same rank as an adult’s (and assuming we intend that second choice), then it must meet the same objective point. I wouldn’t give an adult their BB for being able to handle attacks by kids. So, is it appropriate to do so with kids?

My reply is that it’s appropriate in at least three cases. 1: if the rank is for technical ability in the art. 2: if the rank is for ability to handle someone about your own size and physicality (which opens a can of worms). 3: if there’s a difference in the kid’s rank (youth BB =/= adult B.B.).

 

[JR 137]

I agree 100%

At my son's school and org. black belt are awarded to youth but they have to test with the adults and do the exact same test as the adults with the same standards. Age is not taken into account in assessing the testers ability. Only difference is that during the sparring portion the youth fight other youth near their age. They are still required to fight a series of continuous sparring matches until the judges are satisfied that the standard of fighting has been met in each fight.

About 2 minutes in sums it all up

Yeah, I know... not EXACTLY the same thing.

 

[Buka]

I have practice written a dozen different posts in the last twenty minutes, offering my opinion on children black belts. But with each, I realized they would inflame, anger or hurt the feelings of people. I have no desire to do that. Too bad, one of them was a real corker.

I have to constantly remind myself to listen to what I teach. I've always preached to my students that the only constant in life is change. And the Martial Arts world continues to change as well.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

I have practice written a dozen different posts in the last twenty minutes, offering my opinion on children black belts. But with each, I realized they would inflame, anger or hurt the feelings of people. I have no desire to do that. Too bad, one of them was a real corker.

I have to constantly remind myself to listen to what I teach. I've always preached to my students that the only constant in life is change. And the Martial Arts world continues to change as well.

I have the same problem, to a lesser extent. My first reaction is, “No. Just no.” But that’s just from my perspective, and reflects my own view of what a B.B. means. I don’t know that my view in this is any more valid than others I read. Heck, from a purely technical standpoint, even I don’t really have an issue with it. But I still have that gut reaction.

 

[Buka]

I have the same problem, to a lesser extent. My first reaction is, “No. Just no.” But that’s just from my perspective, and reflects my own view of what a B.B. means. I don’t know that my view in this is any more valid than others I read. Heck, from a purely technical standpoint, even I don’t really have an issue with it. But I still have that gut reaction.

Maybe you and I could team up and fight eight and ten year old Black Belts in some form of sparring.

You'll take the ten year old, right?

 

[shihansmurf]

15 year thread necro. Sweet.

I don't promote students to black belt prior to age 16.