Tournament Judges and Judging

[VSanhodo]

To compare martial arts tournaments of today to the 60s and 70s doesn't quite support you theorey of fewer injuries. The number of martial artists today is by far greater than that of the 60s and 70s, so to say that there were fewer injuries back then has no real meaning unless you were speaking of a per capita statistic. Furthermore there are more tournaments held now there there was in the 60s and 70s. I know some people that go to tournaments every month or so, sometimes ever few weeks, I can't see many martial artists having the oppertunity to do that back then.

Tournaments held years ago and with less protective gear actually had fewer injuries than tournaments of today. Todays tournaments with all of their new and improved safety gear has merely been a liscense for most to simply bang away. Back then if you were in martial arts you knew darn near everyone else invloved. I would agree there are far more tournaments and people styding today then years gone by that goes without question. There is also less control, with more rules, more politics, more egos, more money, more tournaments all with less skill, less knowledge. The opportunities for ppl today is greater by far no question, there are BS studios on darn near every corner, more tournements for ppl to go to to be pooly judged by 98% of the black blets who have no idea what to judge or how to judge. Yep there are more tournaments, more ppl, more opportunities. More doesnt mean better.

 

[47MartialMan]

Tournaments held years ago and with less protective gear actually had fewer injuries than tournaments of today.

Perhaps because the attitudes per control and less ppl.

Todays tournaments with all of their new and improved safety gear has merely been a liscense for most to simply bang away. Back then if you were in martial arts you knew darn near everyone else invloved.

Yes, and strange how everyone desires to fight/spar. (No one desires to lose) As though something to prove. And how excited everyone gets for sparring. Like some kind of gladiator spectacle.

I would agree there are far more tournaments and people styding today then years gone by that goes without question. There is also less control, with more rules, more politics, more egos, more money, more tournaments all with less skill, less knowledge.

How true, but on one side-more people becoming interested.

The opportunities for ppl today is greater by far no question, there are BS studios on darn near every corner, more tournements for ppl to go to to be pooly judged by 98% of the black blets who have no idea what to judge or how to judge.

How true again. No common standards of black belt ranking, therefore no standards on how to judge.

Yep there are more tournaments, more ppl, more opportunities. More doesnt mean better.

But more gives many choices and variety.

 

[JDenz]

The problem is like anything else good refs want to get paid. I have been to alot of MA tournaments latley and the refing has been really inconsistant from ring to ring , mat to mat. In wrestling you have to be certified to ref and there are levels of certification that you need to have to ref the higher levels, (ie open tournament, regional, national, world) at the smaller tournaments though alot of guys wrestle and Ref.

 

[47MartialMan]

The problem is like anything else good refs want to get paid. I have been to alot of MA tournaments latley and the refing has been really inconsistant from ring to ring , mat to mat. In wrestling you have to be certified to ref and there are levels of certification that you need to have to ref the higher levels, (ie open tournament, regional, national, world) at the smaller tournaments though alot of guys wrestle and Ref.

Ok fine, so why it cant be done for other martial arts?

 

[JDenz]

There is no reason not to it should be like that. I think the stronger the federation or organization is the better the judging is going to be. Wrestling, Judo, both have pretty decent refering and scoring. I think that as long as you are in a small organization, you always take a chance of getting biased or not so good judging.

 

[47MartialMan]

There is no reason not to it should be like that. I think the stronger the federation or organization is the better the judging is going to be. Wrestling, Judo, both have pretty decent refering and scoring. I think that as long as you are in a small organization, you always take a chance of getting biased or not so good judging.

Good, too bad it cannot work in these so-called "open" tourneys.

 

[JDenz]

Ya well what is an open tournament that we are talking about where was it held was it multiple styles who knows sometimes you come into something like that with the wrong intrepation of the rules.

 

[47MartialMan]

Ya well what is an open tournament that we are talking about where was it held was it multiple styles who knows sometimes you come into something like that with the wrong intrepation of the rules.

It is not the rules to worry about....

 

[MichiganTKD]

One of the problems with these open tournaments is: Who's rules do you follow? If you follow Karate rules, it's not fair to the Tae Kwon Do guys. If you follow WTF rules, the point guys will complain. Whose refs do you use? Do you have a Karate instructor refereeing a match between a Karate and a TKD fighter?
Same with forms. If I'm doing a Tae kwon Do form, how exactly is a Shotokan or MMA guy qualified to judge me? You open the door to inconsistancies, inequalities, and complaints. You may start out with the best of intentions (sometimes), but it ends up being a mish-mosh of confusion where noone is satisfied.
Again, open tournaments are almost always about how much money can you make.

 

[47MartialMan]

One of the problems with these open tournaments is: Who's rules do you follow? If you follow Karate rules, it's not fair to the Tae Kwon Do guys. If you follow WTF rules, the point guys will complain. Whose refs do you use? Do you have a Karate instructor refereeing a match between a Karate and a TKD fighter?
Same with forms. If I'm doing a Tae kwon Do form, how exactly is a Shotokan or MMA guy qualified to judge me? You open the door to inconsistancies, inequalities, and complaints. You may start out with the best of intentions (sometimes), but it ends up being a mish-mosh of confusion where noone is satisfied.
Again, open tournaments are almost always about how much money can you make.

Yes, they have to get the money to support.

A school that cannot promote a tourney within their own system, have difficulties in funding a event. Sure, if there were a couple of schools, say like TKD, and invitations/ads go out, the limitation (of funds) is still there.

In short, a "open" tourney really wants to be "open" for business.

 

[beauty_in_the_sai]

I think as far as forms go a taekwondoist shouldn't be able to judge a kung fu or karate practitioner as the styles are totally different. How's a TKDist supposed to know how good the kung fuist did? It all depends on looks and flashyness as far as interstyle judging goes, rather than whether the moves would actually work or not (then you could be unlucky like me and for some reason always have your instructor be one of the judges who judge you at tournys, as he knows what I'm supposed to know).

As far as fighting goes however, I think any style judge can participate. No matter what the style, one guys gonna be better than the other. I don't like the point system much though, as they can never be exactly sure on what it hit and at some tournys you can't hit to the head, which is a main target for a taekwondoist like moi.

 

[rmcrobertson]

I'm afraid I don't agree. As a previous poster said, power is power, focus is focus, clarity is clarity--and a knowledgeable martial artist at black belt or above should be able to recognize that in any of the external styles. Nearly all the time, anyway.

A few years back, I went to a well-known torunament, and watched the black belt forms--saw a woman in an Okinawan style who SHOULD have won, for all the reaons I just mentioned. Instead she didn't even place--flashier forms from guys prevailed, including one (sorry to say) by a very advanced kenpo guy that was just plain awful.

The problem isn't knowledge. The problem isn't even politics, in a sense, because THAT would balance out. The problem is that we've let some fundamental dishonesties creep into tournaments and forms and judging--for example, the often-repeated, "I had to change the form so it would look flashier for the judges."

As things stand, I'd bet we'd all be pretty horrified by the results if we were to somehow get a fully-objective look at scoring and judging. My offhand guess is that things are worse than we think.

 

[47MartialMan]

I'm afraid I don't agree. As a previous poster said, power is power, focus is focus, clarity is clarity--and a knowledgeable martial artist at black belt or above should be able to recognize that in any of the external styles. Nearly all the time, anyway.

A few years back, I went to a well-known torunament, and watched the black belt forms--saw a woman in an Okinawan style who SHOULD have won, for all the reaons I just mentioned. Instead she didn't even place--flashier forms from guys prevailed, including one (sorry to say) by a very advanced kenpo guy that was just plain awful.

The problem isn't knowledge. The problem isn't even politics, in a sense, because THAT would balance out. The problem is that we've let some fundamental dishonesties creep into tournaments and forms and judging--for example, the often-repeated, "I had to change the form so it would look flashier for the judges."

As things stand, I'd bet we'd all be pretty horrified by the results if we were to somehow get a fully-objective look at scoring and judging. My offhand guess is that things are worse than we think.

Yes, the flashy forms get noticed. But don't forget the flashy uniforms and the sparkley weapons

 

[evenflow1121]

I am not really big on tourneys to begin with, they are just so unrealistic. I mean no offense or anything, but I can sure as hell do without those musical katas and what not. As for sparring, most are pt fighting--nuff said. As for judges, I ve seen a lot with little if no experience of tourneys, just pretty much a crash course in tournament judging and they get to decide the outcome. I am not really a big fan of tournaments either way, but I do feel that most tournament sponsors and what not should take the judging task a little more serious.

 

[MichiganTKD]

Thing about forms judging, and one of the reasons why I disagree with inter-art judging, is that it is the little things that make or break forms. The little nuances. Now, a Tae Kwon Do Instructor watching a karate or kung fu form could probably tell how good the form is in general. He knows overall what is good technique and what is not. However, he would not be able to judge the nuances of a Karate form, because since he does not practice Karate, he would not know the little things to look for that an experienced Karate instructor would notice.
For example, ITF and WTF are still Tae Kwon Do, right? I consider myself absolutely unqualified to judge ITF forms. I might understand the general movements, but I would not know how to judge the intricate techniques that a qualified ITF instructor would know. And vice versa. This comes from years of practicing your chosen style and knowing what to look for. Anyone who thinks that, because they have practiced Kenpo for 20 years, they are in a position to judge Tae Kwon Do or Karate is deluding themselves or absolutely arrogant.

 

[TallAdam85]

This one is realy close to my heart. I realy like sport karate alot, I compete at alot of Natioal events and try to go to as many tournaments as I can. Now I have been to some great tournaments and a few ONES THAT WHERE ALL OUT CRAP. Now in michigan they made a new circuit called the Michigan Sport Karate Circuit. WWW.MSKC.ORG STILL IN Work the site. But anyways the reason they made the circuit is to first off have better judges.

Can any one else think of any sport beside karate where the judges or refs don't get paid and most inportantly train? No Not many. The biggest down side of open tournaments is judges. (I try to go to at least 1 to 3 tournaments a month and have been for 5 years so I seen my shair of bad judges.) Now at alot of open tournaments people in street close are judges now some of these people say there black belts but I never seen them so who knows they could be a brown belt, that sould not matter if all the judges know what to look for and how to score ext. I belive if they where to train judges better the event would run better. People always want to yell at the host. Recenlty my school hosted a huge tournament in michigan. Now I was wearing a suit and a ring helper trying to get judges and score keepers and keep everything running well. I think i must have got yelled at 20 moms and dads cause there kids got a bad score from a judge. But I had to tell them every judge looks for something different. Sure as people we like to try and complane if we don't win. I know I have in the past but then watched the tape and some times seen there right but also HAVE SEEN THEY MISSED ALOT ALSO.


But Recely the big org like World Sport Karate Fed and Groups like AAU are having judges meetings so that all the judges are in there and no what to do. I now i was a judge at a even in grand blanc and everytime a kid maybe touched a kids back he call us in for a judges meeting after 5 or 6 times of this in a corse of 3 matchs i knew i had to go to a different ring so The Key POINT OF WHAT I AM SAYING IS don't blame the event don't always blame the judges but just try and make it work the best lol if there is grammer errors or words spelled wrong to bad it is 3 in the moring and i am going to bed soon so :mp5:

 

[47MartialMan]

Sure you can blame the event and/or judges. The event promoter should have had a line-upo of good judges. The judges should have expereince and open-mindeness to judge something for what it is worth, not looking for the biased basis of what it should look like.

 

[TallAdam85]

Sure you can blame the event and/or judges" says 47MartialMan

how many times in pro base ball have u seen a bad call 100's of times no one is perfect how do they know a head of time what kinda of judges are the key is to have good rules meetings and good judges if by paying or better training

 

[47MartialMan]

Sure you can blame the event and/or judges" says 47MartialMan

how many times in pro base ball have u seen a bad call 100's of times no one is perfect how do they know a head of time what kinda of judges are the key is to have good rules meetings and good judges if by paying or better training

My point is that you can blame these if a concise structure is not available...