Promoting seniors?

[Jonathan Randall]

Since I consider anything above 5th or 6th dan honorary (or, rather, honoring the holder's contribution to the art and the organization), I don't see a problem with an organization developing their own criteria for advancement to the senior dan ranks. In other words, it is a bit presumptuous and unrealistic to require and expect every organization to find themselves a 10th dan with a lineage going back to the Tokugawa Shogunate. If a legitimate group, after the passing of their founder, decides to elevate a senior member beyond their own grades or the last grades issued by the founder before his/her death, than what business is that of others? Too many folks in the MA are too concerned, IMO, with what OTHERS do.

 

[Brad Dunne]

Rankings have always been a raw nerve in discussions. There are just as many variables as to who and how as there are disciplines being practiced and reinvented. As Terry pointed out, even the so called "High Standard" of TKD has a back door. Some may not remember or be familar with the infamous airplane promotions of those coming to the U.S. from Korea. Rank is whatever one wishes to make it. Most people are impressed with credentials, it's what Americans have come to expect in almost all walks of life and it has become a major marketing tool. I have seen some good practicioners stalled/roadblocked from advancement, for any number of reasons, while other's who have lined the GM's pocket get to move up.

"I thought the whole point of higher ranks was for people outside your respective organization to arbitrailly disqualify and denigrate any promotions within your org.".............Marginal

As back handed as that may sound, there is a lot of truth to it.

As far as the original intent of this thread goes, seniors should be promoted based upon what they have done for the organization/school. Someone has to be the lead dog in the sled team, so however it's accomplished, it satisfies an objective.

As everyone should know, rank will justify itself when on the mat.....

 

[Mark L]

I'm at a small, independent school, it has been open for 17 years and the owner has no "master". There are currently 5 active black belts out of a total of 16 reaching dan rank since the school opened. The boss has been training continuosly for 30+ years, and is ranked the same as his last instructor (5th). Given the independent nature of the school, I guess he could rank himself wherever he wants. What he does is make sure there is significant stratification in the ranks, the difference between 1st, 2nd, and 3rd dans is readily apparent, and he is ranked two levels above his most accomplished student. If someone eventually merits 4th, he'll wear 6th, otherwise he'll stay where he is until he retires.

 

[Flying Crane]

A good friend of mine and advisor to my system is stuck at 8th Dan.

STUCK AT 8TH??!! STUCK AT 8TH??!! my god man, what in the name of all that is good and holy, is wrong with 8th???!!! That's far more than most ever achieve, and many who claim the rank are a farce. I would applaud him for not giving in to temptation and digging around for more rank, or just seizing it for himself. It really says something about his character.

I think it is foolish to assume that there always needs to be more rank, just because someone keeps training they always need more rank eventually. At his level, the best thing is to just forget about rank all together, 'cause it's just kind of meaningless. That's what I was alluding to in my earlier posts.

 

[Flying Crane]

I'm at a small, independent school, it has been open for 17 years and the owner has no "master". There are currently 5 active black belts out of a total of 16 reaching dan rank since the school opened. The boss has been training continuosly for 30+ years, and is ranked the same as his last instructor (5th). Given the independent nature of the school, I guess he could rank himself wherever he wants. What he does is make sure there is significant stratification in the ranks, the difference between 1st, 2nd, and 3rd dans is readily apparent, and he is ranked two levels above his most accomplished student. If someone eventually merits 4th, he'll wear 6th, otherwise he'll stay where he is until he retires.

Why do you feel he would need to claim 6th, if his student merits 4th?

 

[Mark L]

Why do you feel he would need to claim 6th, if his student merits 4th?

I don't feel that he would need to do that, it is simply what he's stated he would do if the occasion ever arises. Rank is such an incidental thing in our dojo, at least among those that have been there for a while, the only reason we're motivated to advance in rank is to explore new material. That being said, I do feel that he should hold the highest rank in his school.

 

[Brandon Fisher]

Yes 8th Dan is extremely respectable especially that it was awarded to him by a 10th Dan whom has over 55 years in th arts. However this individual does not care about rank nor does expect anything this is one reason I was able to get it done for him. Those that are deserving are the ones you need to take care of.

 

[Jdokan]

Why do you feel he would need to claim 6th, if his student merits 4th?

I thought the "rule" waqs you could omly promote up to one rank below yourself.....DId that change at some time?

 

[Flying Crane]

That being said, I do feel that he should hold the highest rank in his school.

He's the teacher, it's his school, of course that makes sense for him to outrank everyone else.

But is there a notion that he has to remain at least two ranks above all others? I've seen that suggested by others, I personally don't agree with it. I actually believe that there would be nothing wrong with an instructor promoting someone to his same rank. Just because they might hold the same rank doesn't mean they are equals, and I am sure everyone else in the school would understand that.

just my personal take on it...

 

[Flying Crane]

I thought the "rule" waqs you could omly promote up to one rank below yourself.....DId that change at some time?

Who made up that rule? What gives someone the "authority" to say this is how it must be done? I've seen it suggested by others, but I've never agreed with it. Just my personal opinion.

This sort of flies in the face of what else has been discussed here, promoting seniors thru a group of his peers. There is certainly no rule like this in effect in that case. This is what I mean how rank is soo twisted around...

 

[Jdokan]

Who made up that rule? What gives someone the "authority" to say this is how it must be done? I've seen it suggested by others, but I've never agreed with it. Just my personal opinion.

This sort of flies in the face of what else has been discussed here, promoting seniors thru a group of his peers. There is certainly no rule like this in effect in that case. This is what I mean how rank is soo twisted around...

I guess I'm showing my ignorance.....I repeat what I was handed down....I guess the intent was for inter-organizational control...
If I was running a school as 2nd and I had somebody going for 2nd they would have to be reviewed by the next level....In the old USSD of Fred's that really didn't matter because he ran everything.....It was one of those Urban-Legends that prevailed....

 

[Flying Crane]

I guess I'm showing my ignorance.....I repeat what I was handed down....I guess the intent was for inter-organizational control...
If I was running a school as 2nd and I had somebody going for 2nd they would have to be reviewed by the next level....In the old USSD of Fred's that really didn't matter because he ran everything.....It was one of those Urban-Legends that prevailed....

Well, I guess if you belong to an organization with a governing body and whatnot, then you gotta play by their rules. If those are the rules they set, then to remain a member in good standing, you go along with it.

I just personally don't feel it's a rule that has a lot of merit, esp. when one is hitting the higher ranks like 5th and up. I just don't see a need to maintain that kind of separation of level. Maybe it can be a marketing thing, keeps people from going out on their own, keeps them from making their own decisions, keeps them on a short leash, and keeps the money coming in to the home offices. I don't know. I just don't feel it's necessary.

It just seems like people keep bending the "rules" and looking for ways to get more rank, if the one sort of "traditional" method, of getting rank directly from your instuctor, is not an option. When one's instructor has passed away, for example, he can't give out any more rank. So his students look for alternative methods, such as those described earlier. Maybe they can have merit, maybe in some cases they are fraudulent. All I'm really trying to do is point out how the whole thing is filled with inconsistencies and pitfalls and shortcomings, and probably often a certain amount of ego as well. I don't have the answers, that much is certain. But I think it's a good idea to keep your eyes open, and be willing to ask the questions, even if it's just introspectively.

I also belive that especially at the higher levels, the acquisition of rank can be fed by a tremendous sense of entitlement. I don't believe everyone is automatically deserving of more rank, just because they keep on training. Maybe you will be a 1st dan for the rest of your life, or second, or third, or whatever. So what? What's the gratification and satisfaction of having more rank, esp. if it doesnt come directly from your instructor? It becomes meaningless, in my opinion.

 

[Mark L]

My teacher has been 5th for ~10 yrs, he's not after rank. I f he was, he'd have it since he's the biggest toad in our puddle ( I love that expression). It's all really just mental masturbation until one of us goes 4th, then we'll see.

 

[still learning]

Hello, Each group/organzitions can make there own rules on promotions. Like a President of a business (no matter the size) is a President or the leader.

In our Kempo system, our Professor 10th Degree, last year promoted 7 of his top Intructors to 8th degree (assist Pofessors). No test was require, they have been with the Professor and running there own schools for a very long time. Most of them also train on special days for Instructors only with the Professor.

It was our Professor decison he felt they had earned. In all those years under 7th degree they had to do the physcial part of the testing only. For his first time promoting anyone to 8th degree ,a physcial test was not neccessary. (He knows what there abilities are...and he knows them personally.) They all were his formal students.

What your school does is there choice when it comes to promotions. You may not agree with there ways....but it is there right. Form your own school and you can make any title you want. THERE IS NO LAWS ON THIS!

And 8th degree,9th degree ,10th degree or a Grand Master...these are only titles. NOT necessary fighing skills.

Usually when someone reach that level....they have at least 30 years plus or more in martial art training.

Have you notice the abundance of 10th degrees and Grand masters...dime a dozen now days...some how it has cheapen the titles and also loss some of it's meaning. (It was rare only less than 40 years ago)...

...........Yours truly ...AAA Grand master of NOTHING....Aloha (my temperture reachs 10th degrees at times)...

 

[Mark L]

What your school does is there choice when it comes to promotions. You may not agree with there ways....but it is there right.

Well stated. If my teacher was walking around with 7, 8, or 9 stripes when his highest student is 3rd I would, and this is only my opinion, think there might be a little too much ego going on. The fact that his next rank is dependent on the acheivement of his students is appealing to me.

 

[LawDog]

To promote someone to a senior rank there should exist proper span of control under him, (a pyramid), to justify the rank/title. Those under him should be of his own lineage and not cross ranked over from another system or style.

 

[IWishToLearn]

To promote someone to a senior rank there should exist proper span of control under him, (a pyramid), to justify the rank/title. Those under him should be of his own lineage and not cross ranked over from another system or style.

What if there is nobody in his own lineage to promote him?

 

[LawDog]

When I referred to his own lineage I meant that he should have trained his own students up to one rank under him. This would justify a promotion to a rank higher.
The promotion would/could come from,
1) An internal board. This board should represent all of the seniors from the organization.
2) It could be done from a senior from his own style. If the promotion applicant had his own style a group of seniors that represent the basic style could promote him. Example:
Master AB created "3 Legged Tiger Kenpo".
A - A group of Kenpo seniors from other Kenpo systems could elevate him,
B - A group of Korean or Chinese seniors could not.
This has been happening alot, one style promoting someone in another different style.
3) An umbrella organization, providing that at least one member of the promotion board is from the same type of system and is of a higher rank.
A single person cannot promote someone to the same rank as himself. Example, a 6th dan cannot promote someone to the same rank, 6th dan.
A single 10th dan cannot promote someone to 10th dan.
To do this properly it would take a board of 6th dans or a board of 10th dans.

 

[Brian R. VanCise]

I have seen this addressed in so many different ways that it is almost an impossibility to place one way or method on how to do this. Whether self promotion, peer promotion, student promotion, outside soke board promotion, instructor promotion, on a plane promotion, etc. People have found a way to do or take what they want and really who am I to tell them how to do it. :idunno:

What I will say is that I really cherish training with people who do not worry about gaining rank and just want to get out there and train, sweat and enjoy what they are doing. That is what I love. Nor do I ever judge someone by what they wear around their waist or by what their title or business card says. Instead I try not to judge (which is impossible) but instead see how they interact with me and the other people around them. That is just my take.

Oh and great thread by the way!

 

[Jdokan]

When I referred to his own lineage I meant that he should have trained his own students up to one rank under him. This would justify a promotion to a rank higher.
The promotion would/could come from,
1) An internal board. This board should represent all of the seniors from the organization.
2) It could be done from a senior from his own style. If the promotion applicant had his own style a group of seniors that represent the basic style could promote him. Example:
Master AB created "3 Legged Tiger Kenpo".
A - A group of Kenpo seniors from other Kenpo systems could elevate him,
B - A group of Korean or Chinese seniors could not.
This has been happening alot, one style promoting someone in another different style.
3) An umbrella organization, providing that at least one member of the promotion board is from the same type of system and is of a higher rank.
A single person cannot promote someone to the same rank as himself. Example, a 6th dan cannot promote someone to the same rank, 6th dan.
A single 10th dan cannot promote someone to 10th dan.
To do this properly it would take a board of 6th dans or a board of 10th dans.

Thank you...thought I was alone on this........