Age limit for Black Belts?

[KennethKu]

Originally posted by MountainSage
This is been a reoccuring statement on this forum since I have been a part, no slam to you kirk. You can not compare MA in the Asian culture to MA is the US culture. MA in Asia train in class 3-4 hours 5 days per week, then addition time on their own outside of class. Thats 15-20 hours + per week, there are few of us that can boast that kind of class time training. As far as maturity, its expected, no questions asked in the Asian Culture. In the US teen and pre-teens are given a lot of leeway.

Mountain Sage

I would say that is a misperception.

I doubt today's Asian teens give that much of a rat *** about martial art anymore. The hottest and trendiest cow chips are what they are interested in. You tend to hear about their parents complaining about "kids today!" There is this common misperception that all Asians know martial art, which cannot be farther from the truth. Granted, you can cite the Thai kids who learn Muay Thai at 9. But they are the exceptions.

On the other hand, in some part of America, ie in rural and farm communities, kids are by far MORE mature and responsible than their compatriots. You are expected to pull your own weight at an early age.

 

[Kempojujutsu]

When I was 12, I started working in my parents resturant. Before I was 16, I would open the resturant up on Saturdays, so my dad could have mornings off. That included getting food prepared, turning on ovens etc. It seems that most of today's youth, don't have that responsabilty. I know have two daughters 16 and 13. The 13 year old will do chores for money the other that's a different story.

Bob:asian:

 

[Kirk]

Originally posted by KennethKu
I would say that is a misperception.

I doubt today's Asian teens give that much of a rat *** about martial art anymore. The hottest and trendiest cow chips are what they are interested in.

I've never lived in Japan, but I heard that they have
mandatory sports after school and on saturdays, and that they
can choose m.a. as that sport. Any truth to this?

 

[Ender]

Just my two cents....

when my son was on the verge of becoming a BlackBelt, our teacher wanted to make sure he represented him and his art correctly. My son was 15 at the time. Our teacher also wanted to measure him against other brown and black belts. So we went to other schools to train, exchange information and to spar. If he handled himself and others with respect and honor, then he had a chance to promote. the final test was if he could fight as a black belt. well, at first he was tentative, but after a while he sparred men, women, blackbelts and brown, of various styles. and he won...alot. he even beat some 3rd degree blackbelts. so our teacher decided he was ready to be a black belt, even tho he never promoted anyone under 18 before.

 

[SRyuFighter]

As a youth of today I must say I agree with some of what is being said. I think the age limit should be 15 and that is only if that person fully meets all requirements. Being a black belt does not automatically make one a great fighter. I mean heck I made a 2nd degree cry not long ago (see thread in Karate forum: Am I wrong here) and I was only a white belt (in that style....had other M.A. training). I don't agree with the whole junior rank thing. I think that you should have a childrens class though. Children should learn the same material as adults. And should practice together. Then if they earn a black belt once they reach age 15 and up they could join the adult class. Basically if the individual is mature enough, can meet the requirements, and is strong enough of a fighter then they should get what they have earned. I don't think that someone could really do this until at least 15.

 

[KennethKu]

Originally posted by Kirk
I've never lived in Japan, but I heard that they have
mandatory sports after school and on saturdays, and that they
can choose m.a. as that sport. Any truth to this?

Mandatory physical education is common in Asian schools. However, they don't necessary include martial arts as part of the curriculum. My friends from Taiwan, HK, Malaysia, Thailand, Indonesia, Singapore don't know cow pie about martial art besides the stuffs in the movie. They couldn't care less and don't give much respect to martial artists in general. My Korean friends told me that just about every Korean male knows TKD. And that is b/c they are taught in the military and Koreans are drafted.

As regarding Japanese schools, you need to ask someone else about that.

 

[Kempojujutsu]

Originally posted by SRyuFighter
I don't agree with the whole junior rank thing. I think that you should have a childrens class though. Children should learn the same material as adults. And should practice together.

The reason I don't teach kids and adults in the same class or the same material. I teach some what of a combative style. We don't do alot of tournments. Things I don't teach kids are alot of wrist and arm locks, chocks, and throws. They do a few wrist and finger locks and about 12 throws. Don't show the finger jab to the eyes. Now that I am getting into the pressure point stuff, I only show kids stuff on the hands and some on the arms. Nothing on the chest or head. Not all Martial arts are the same. Some should not teach kids the same material they show adults.
Bob :asian:

 

[MountainSage]

KennethKu, My reference the the maturity in the asia culture was not a reference to MA, but the culture in general. I wish your statement about rural communties was true, but they are getting as bad as the cities. I live by a town of 200 and the largest town in the county is under 2000 people and we have many of the same problem and tribulations as in the cities, just on a smaller scale.

Mountian Sage

 

[A.R.K.]

I am going to say age 18.

:asian:

 

[MartialArtist]

Most kids don't even know what a black belt means when they're 15, nonetheless the ripe old age of 8.

Physical and mental development, along with experience play a huge role in the MA. I remember when I was 7, I really couldn't hit very hard. Reason was I didn't have the best technique, mainly due to my lack of physical and mental development. When I hit 13, I broke my first concrete slab while at seven, couldn't punch through anything...

Oh yeah, after I broke a concrete slab with my palm strike and side kick @ 13, I thought I was the greatest and I tried to do what the professionals did, which was run up this one slope (usually during the winter) and knife hand trees. You weren't trying to snap the tree, just an exercises they did. I did it and all I said was :soapbox:

My maturity those days Hell, I'm not even THAT mature today. Anyway, if I taught me when I was in my youth, I wouldn't feel comfortable of promoting myself to any high rank until age 21.

 

[MartialArtist]

Originally posted by MountainSage
This is been a reoccuring statement on this forum since I have been a part, no slam to you kirk. You can not compare MA in the Asian culture to MA is the US culture. MA in Asia train in class 3-4 hours 5 days per week, then addition time on their own outside of class. Thats 15-20 hours + per week, there are few of us that can boast that kind of class time training. As far as maturity, its expected, no questions asked in the Asian Culture. In the US teen and pre-teens are given a lot of leeway.

Mountain Sage

Used to be until a decade ago.

Now, most (not all) kids in Asia (mainly in industrialized areas such as South Korea or Japan) all have cell phones, play high-tech video games, etc. Corporal punishment is fading, and everything is becomming more liberal.

 

[MartialArtist]

Originally posted by Kirk
I've never lived in Japan, but I heard that they have
mandatory sports after school and on saturdays, and that they
can choose m.a. as that sport. Any truth to this?

Girls usually choose volleyball while guys usually like baseball.

Almost everyone in South Korea knows TKD and a bit of wrestling (be it freestyle, ssirum) or yudo... But comparable to that of a McDojang person. Most kids really aren't much, it's the adults to look after, as most the McDojangists just seperate themselves while the dedicated stay. High school students in the city don't have time for a lot of TKD students. They have school, then they have "extra" school @ their high school which can amount to 8 hours of total schooling total. The "extra" school isn't really required by law, but everyone does it or they'll get left behind. College students in South Korea are the type of college people you see in the US... Ambitious, eager, protesting everything and trying to save the world.

 

[Dan Anderson]

Originally posted by KenpoDragon
I would like to know everyone's input on this one, do you believe that there should be an age limit for someone to be promoted to a Black Belt???

With honor and respect,
KenpoDragon

Although I came in late on this thread, I do have some thoughts on it. I do promote kids to Junior Black Belt. I have not promoted anyone less than 12 years old to this rank. The two key requirements to this rank are 1) they have to have the same technical proficiency as the adults testing and 2) they must have the fighting mentality that if they are abducted/accosted by another adult, "The bomb goes off."

I have seen too many 7&8 year old black belots do the board breaking thing on Johnny Carson or David Letterman that I know any high school senior could pick up and throw into a dumpster without nay problem. For me, this is not right. If I promote anyone to a Junior Black Belt and they become accosted or assaulted in any way by an adult, they are taking a piece of the attacker with them. If they go down, they're going down fighting. That is the prime attribute any Junior Black Belt needs to have in my school.

A 9 year old? Sorry, no go.

Yours,
Dan Anderson

 

[MountainSage]

Hello Dan, nice to hear from a fellow Oregonian. A couple folks on this thread have made a common statement about BB and being fighters. We need to define what a BB is ment to be. It is easy to train people to fight/self-defense; teach a skill and repeat many, many times. To be a MA is a different thing, a way of self-control and improvement. A gentleman on another forum used this example: you may be the best cheerleader in the world, but the doesn't make youo good in ballet. There are many simliar movements, but the intent is different. If all your going to do is be a fighter then train a year or two and be a fighter, why would a person spend years just to be a fighter. there are maturity factor that a 12 year old BB doesn't have and few teenages and twenty something will have. Heck, I know one or two 30+ year old BB that don't have the maturity. I apologize, the concept is difficult to explain. it is like the difference between throwing a punch and placing a punch, it doesn't seem like must difference, but there is a world of difference.

Mountain Sage

 

[tonbo]

I had this big, long-winded answer to post up here on age limits for Black.

I'm not gonna bore anyone with the details.

Let's just say that yes, I would set an age limit of at least 16 for a full Black. Below that, but NO lower than say, 13, a student could earn a junior Black.

8-year-old Black belts? Um......NO.

Peace--

 

[TKDman]

Sadly, if the price is right im sure a kid could find a black belt from someone.

 

[Nightingale]

always remember there are exceptions to every rule...

in EPAK, there's Ms. Diserae Phillips. This girl is 15, 2nd black, and absolutely amazing. There's no doubt in anyone's mind who meets her that she understands the responsibility of a black belt, and can definitely hold her own on the mat.

 

[c2kenpo]

Can a 9 year old kid really have the knowledge that a Black Belt should have??? Can a 9 year old kid have the maturity level that a Black Belt should have??? Can a 9 year old kid have the control a Black Belt should have??? Can a 9 year old kid understand the potential for damage of what they are doing???
With honor and respect,
KenpoDragon

Just saw this thread.
Our school has a 9yr "Jr" Black belt and two 15 yr old Jr. Black belts one of which is a 6th Degree Jr, who has been training for 11 yearsand now learing adult green belt material. I can honestly say that they do understand the material well enough to have control and maturity level and they do know what kind of damage they can do with the knowledge base they have. They actually are assistant instructors in our kids classes at times helping the seinor instructors.
I believe the problem with the whole Black Belt and young children is that the black belt is seemingly earned so easily in todays commercial MA schools. I think depending on the school and instruction you will find varying answers to you question but itis important to have good instruction both for MA and life we require a lot more from our students in terms of grades and behaviour if you do not fit the emotional requirements for brown/ black belts youwill not pass until that time. (Meaning you beat someone up for the heck of it as a green belt and you may not ever earn a brown belt in our Kenpo school).

I like to ask now instead of "What belt do you have?" I go with "So how long have you been training?" Gives me more of an idea of the persons knowledge base and skill level.

 

[clapping_tiger]

To make it short. I think it should be 12 (minimum)or 13 for a Junior Black Belt. And 16 for Black, but a re-test of their skills is a must if they are moving up from Junior Black.

 

[tonbo]

Nightingale, I would agree. There are always exceptions. I know of a couple as well, but I would still say I generally would discourage someone pushing on to get a child to advanced rank (or to BB). In most cases, for a variety of reasons, it just doesn't work.

I love that quote about asking how long someone's been training, rather than what belt they have. You are very right, c2kenpo....seems like the belt is less of an indication of skill than how long they've been at it. Then again, you would also need to know how *often* they trained, over that period.....

"How long have you been training?" "Oh, about 40 years. Once a year"

Heh. A bit extreme, but as always, I could see something similar happening.

Ah, well.

Peace--