What is really the difference between TMA and MMA? False Dichotomy...

[jezr74]

That might be because the old men know competitive chi sau is ******** and wouldn't lower themselves by taking part.
If they were to go in it however , they would go through them like a hot knife through butter.

Wing Chun is purely based on skill it has nothing to with youth or muscular strength , the head of our lineage passed away a week and a bit ago but even at his advanced age he could throw people around like rag dolls and his power was quite literally frightening.

[video=youtube_share;YWjsr7Yr5tY]http://youtu.be/YWjsr7Yr5tY[/video]

Is that you in the clip?

 

[mook jong man]

Is that you in the clip?

No mate , it is one of my Sihings.

 

[Steve]

No they wouldn't , because they wouldn't have the patience to practice the rather boring things like Siu Nim Tau form and stance exercises like pivoting everyday for the 40 to 50 years it took to reach his level.

I don't think this is true. Few people stay in any art for 40 or 50 years. But I would say that every single person who does has the patience to practice the rather boring things. This is true for every single skill a human being can learn. While talent and aptitude play a role, logging hours in an activity is the difference between having potential and realizing it. MMA is no different than any other human activity, whether it's another style of martial arts or something entirely different such as learning to play a musical instrument.

 

[Steve]

MMA: According to my knowledge MMA is a sport. It is used for competitions. It has rules to protect its athletes. The objective is to win.

Yes. I agree.

TMA: TMA is traditional martial arts. It keeps the traditions of a particular culture. It was created for self defense. There is only one rule and that is to do what is necessary to survive. The objective often is to maim or kill.

Not necessarily. Is Judo a TMA or a sport? Both?

What about a self defense style that isn't Asian, but in all other ways meets the criteria you have above, such as Krav Maga? Is that a TMA?

Let's face it. Some martial arts are about sport. Some are about self defense. Some are about fitness. Some are more about historical and/or cultural preservation. Most incorporate a little of all of that. But I would say, sales literature aside, that most people (not all) who train in any martial art are not going to be able to kill or maim anyone with their training.

 

[donnaTKD]

^^^i disagree with the last part of that statement^^^

the idea with muay thai and muay boran is to kill the opposition. the faster that they can be dispatched the better. both of these are TMA's.

 

[drop bear]

No they wouldn't , because they wouldn't have the patience to practice the rather boring things like Siu Nim Tau form and stance exercises like pivoting everyday for the 40 to 50 years it took to reach his level.

I assume there is some sort of benefit before hand though.

 

[mook jong man]

I assume there is some sort of benefit before hand though.

There is , but it is a cumulative effect that occurs over many years , and it takes a hell of a long time to reach that level of generating effortless power.

Unfortunately some people never reach that level despite years of training , due to not being trained properly under the guidance of somebody that knows what they are doing.

One of those people who could train people to attain "Nim Lik" (Thought Force) , the old man in the video unfortunately passed away just recently.
He was Tsui Seung Tin one of the four "closed door" students of Yip Man.

 

[Steve]

^^^i disagree with the last part of that statement^^^

the idea with muay thai and muay boran is to kill the opposition. the faster that they can be dispatched the better. both of these are TMA's.

Regardless of what the "idea" is with Muay Thai or Muay Boran, there are some people who could kill with it. Most people don't train long enough, smart enough or hard enough to learn it.

In the same way, most people who pick up a guitar don't stick with it long enough to really play. You don't go into any martial arts school and just through osmosis become deadly. That's crap.

Here's a question for the group. If it takes 40 or 50 years to master your "style," and even then, only a few of the dedicated students who stick it out for 40 years will really get it... isn't that kind of a bad thing? I mean, at some point, the handful of people who are excelling are doing so in spite of the style. If the style is so difficult to learn that only a handful of people in the world could do so, it seems that the person who has excelled is so exceptional that he or she could probably, literally make anything work.

At some point, if success is such an exclusive club, the emphasis has shifted as in the images below. While the artsy toaster probably cooks bread, doesn't it seem like the "art" has led to hopelessly over-complicating what is really a very simple process? And of the two, which do you think is most likely to fail to toast bread?

View attachment $funny-cool-toasters-17.jpg

View attachment $sunbeam-toaster-model-t-9-01z.jpg

Acheiving art is a laudable goal, and true mastery of any style of art can take years. But art tends to become its own goal, often to the detriment of function.

 

[donnaTKD]

i suppose it depends on how committed you are to your chosen MA. i mean if you're in it heart and soul for the long run then you'll prolly get more out of it than say someone who'sjust collecting belts as fast as the McDojo they're with will let them.

as for me i've been training for just over 20years and i wouldn't call myself the finished article cos there's always new things being brought into Muay Thai - new ways of training, more effective ways of dispatching things and now that i've found a Muay Boran centre that'll add another dimension to my Muay Thai training.

i think that the longer you train in an art the more effective it becomes regardless of which art it is - also it'll make more sense to the person too, why certain things work and how to enhance what they've already learnt etc...........

as for the toaster -- does that top one really work ????? apart from the fact that i like my toast to pop up when it's done and stay in a warm environment so it can't get cold too quickly

 

[mook jong man]

Regardless of what the "idea" is with Muay Thai or Muay Boran, there are some people who could kill with it. Most people don't train long enough, smart enough or hard enough to learn it.

In the same way, most people who pick up a guitar don't stick with it long enough to really play. You don't go into any martial arts school and just through osmosis become deadly. That's crap.

Here's a question for the group. If it takes 40 or 50 years to master your "style," and even then, only a few of the dedicated students who stick it out for 40 years will really get it... isn't that kind of a bad thing? I mean, at some point, the handful of people who are excelling are doing so in spite of the style. If the style is so difficult to learn that only a handful of people in the world could do so, it seems that the person who has excelled is so exceptional that he or she could probably, literally make anything work.

At some point, if success is such an exclusive club, the emphasis has shifted as in the images below. While the artsy toaster probably cooks bread, doesn't it seem like the "art" has led to hopelessly over-complicating what is really a very simple process? And of the two, which do you think is most likely to fail to toast bread?

View attachment 18861

View attachment 18862

Acheiving art is a laudable goal, and true mastery of any style of art can take years. But art tends to become its own goal, often to the detriment of function.

No one said it takes 40 to 50 years to master the style , what I said was that it took 40 to 50 years for Sigung Tsui to reach the level that he attained , his level was something beyond mastery.

It is all relative and there are degrees along that spectrum from beginner to master , you could have only be training for 1 or 2 years and still defend yourself against an assault , but probably with a lot more muscle and brute strength involved than someone who has been training a lot longer.

Here is a video of a man from the same lineage that's probably been training about 30 years , he has attained some level of "Nim Lik" but not to the same level as Sigung.

But I suspect the video will be just dismissed with the usual calls of "compliance" and just "trying to make the demonstrator look good" etc.

[video=youtube_share;0wm5YhUjqCo]http://youtu.be/0wm5YhUjqCo[/video]

 

[K-man]

Here's a question for the group. If it takes 40 or 50 years to master your "style," and even then, only a few of the dedicated students who stick it out for 40 years will really get it... isn't that kind of a bad thing? I mean, at some point, the handful of people who are excelling are doing so in spite of the style. If the style is so difficult to learn that only a handful of people in the world could do so, it seems that the person who has excelled is so exceptional that he or she could probably, literally make anything work.

I think that what is meant here is that you can learn the physical aspects of a style very quickly. For example if you started from scratch in say Karate and you were a reasonably gifted athlete you could be competing at the top level of competition in 4-5 years, may be less, depending on the amount of training you undertake. Aikido is a little different. There are actually far less techniques in Aikido than Karate but they are more complex and it takes much longer to reach the stage that you can use those techniques against a resisting opponent. I know a number of highly ranked Aikidoka who can't make their techniques work against resistance and because they don't train atemi it is unlikely their practice will ever be effective. MAs like Krav Maga take minimal time.

Then you have the mental side. Developing the mental side of a martial art takes many years even when you are trying to train that way. For a start you need someone to teach you and they are thin on the ground. I think it would be almost impossible to develop that aspect of training without guidance. That is where the masters only selected their best and most suitable students to take to that level. If you have never been exposed to this type of training you will not suddenly develop this ability even with forty years of training.

The physical side of your martial art will diminish with age. The mental side can continue to grow. I believe this is what Mook is referring to.
:asian:

 

[Steve]

I think that what is meant here is that you can learn the physical aspects of a style very quickly. For example if you started from scratch in say Karate and you were a reasonably gifted athlete you could be competing at the top level of competition in 4-5 years, may be less, depending on the amount of training you undertake. Aikido is a little different. There are actually far less techniques in Aikido than Karate but they are more complex and it takes much longer to reach the stage that you can use those techniques against a resisting opponent. I know a number of highly ranked Aikidoka who can't make their techniques work against resistance and because they don't train atemi it is unlikely their practice will ever be effective. MAs like Krav Maga take minimal time.

Then you have the mental side. Developing the mental side of a martial art takes many years even when you are trying to train that way. For a start you need someone to teach you and they are thin on the ground. I think it would be almost impossible to develop that aspect of training without guidance. That is where the masters only selected their best and most suitable students to take to that level. If you have never been exposed to this type of training you will not suddenly develop this ability even with forty years of training.

The physical side of your martial art will diminish with age. The mental side can continue to grow. I believe this is what Mook is referring to.
:asian:

Put as simply as I can, it's specious to believe that mastery of one style is any more or less difficult than another. My opinion is that there is a tendency to want ot believe that people who train in a style you consider opposed to your own are less patient, less serious, perhaps lazier, and that this belief comes from a place of insecurity, ignorance and a need to believe oneself to be special.

It's this insecurity that drives threads like this, wanting to compare TMA to MMA where everyone picks a side and judges the other. It's vanity and insecurity that drive comments such as by mook jong man suggesting someone who trains in MMA lacks the patience to practice something that is "boring" with enough diligence to suit him. Vanity, my friends, and insecurity. That's my take, at least.

 

[K-man]

Put as simply as I can, it's specious to believe that mastery of one style is any more or less difficult than another. My opinion is that there is a tendency to want ot believe that people who train in a style you consider opposed to your own are less patient, less serious, perhaps lazier, and that this belief comes from a place of insecurity, ignorance and a need to believe oneself to be special.

It's this insecurity that drives threads like this, wanting to compare TMA to MMA where everyone picks a side and judges the other. It's vanity and insecurity that drive comments such as by mook jong man suggesting someone who trains in MMA lacks the patience to practice something that is "boring" with enough diligence to suit him. Vanity, my friends, and insecurity. That's my take, at least.

Sorry to disagree. MMA is fantastic and the guys right into it are far more accomplished and far fitter than I will ever be. Reality is that that not many of them will continue with it beyond 40 or 50. Muay Thai is much the same. The physical ability required to maintain that level is way ahead of what you need for anything I train. Mastery is a different matter. It takes many years to master BJJ in my opinion and I don't practise BJJ. From what I know of Krav, you can master the basics in a very short time but it has the provision to keep developing. Most other martial arts are in the same boat. I am not picking a side at all in respect to the physical element of the training. (I don't hold some martial arts in same high regard at all but I would never voice those concerns in an open forum. Obviously none of the systems I have mentioned in this thread are in that category.)

Mook was not talking about the physical element. You could train any martial art for 50 years but, without the internal training that Mook mentioned, you will not achieve the level of mastery we are discussing.

There is , but it is a cumulative effect that occurs over many years , and it takes a hell of a long time to reach that level of generating effortless power.


Unfortunately some people never reach that level despite years of training , due to not being trained properly under the guidance of somebody that knows what they are doing.


One of those people who could train people to attain "Nim Lik" (Thought Force) , the old man in the video unfortunately passed away just recently.
He was Tsui Seung Tin one of the four "closed door" students of Yip Man.

I would not agree with Mook saying some people never reach that level. I would say most people never reach that level. Hardly anyone reaches that level, certainly among the people I have met.

No one said it takes 40 to 50 years to master the style , what I said was that it took 40 to 50 years for Sigung Tsui to reach the level that he attained , his level was something beyond mastery.

Unless you are training for that sort of understanding you will never achieve it no matter how long you train.
:asian:

 

[drop bear]

No one said it takes 40 to 50 years to master the style , what I said was that it took 40 to 50 years for Sigung Tsui to reach the level that he attained , his level was something beyond mastery.

It is all relative and there are degrees along that spectrum from beginner to master , you could have only be training for 1 or 2 years and still defend yourself against an assault , but probably with a lot more muscle and brute strength involved than someone who has been training a lot longer.

Here is a video of a man from the same lineage that's probably been training about 30 years , he has attained some level of "Nim Lik" but not to the same level as Sigung.

But I suspect the video will be just dismissed with the usual calls of "compliance" and just "trying to make the demonstrator look good" etc.

[video=youtube_share;0wm5YhUjqCo]http://youtu.be/0wm5YhUjqCo[/video]

So you think that training for 1 to 2 years now will make a noticeable difference and yet people don't bother.

Why do you think a person who could benefit from a style of training wouldn't?

There is no reason someone couldn't do that demo on mma guys in a mma school.

 

[Jaeimseu]

So you think that training for 1 to 2 years now will make a noticeable difference and yet people don't bother.

Why do you think a person who could benefit from a style of training wouldn't?

There is no reason someone couldn't do that demo on mma guys in a mma school.

There might be one very good reason....

 

[drop bear]

Put as simply as I can, it's specious to believe that mastery of one style is any more or less difficult than another. My opinion is that there is a tendency to want ot believe that people who train in a style you consider opposed to your own are less patient, less serious, perhaps lazier, and that this belief comes from a place of insecurity, ignorance and a need to believe oneself to be special.

It's this insecurity that drives threads like this, wanting to compare TMA to MMA where everyone picks a side and judges the other. It's vanity and insecurity that drive comments such as by mook jong man suggesting someone who trains in MMA lacks the patience to practice something that is "boring" with enough diligence to suit him. Vanity, my friends, and insecurity. That's my take, at least.

What I think people don't get.

Mma is trained differently to a hybrid. Top level athletes will still train the tma styles and grade to a high level. Where you might think that it would be more efficient to wake up in the morning and train mma until sundown does not happen.

They still train as the styles are meant to be trained. So if they do jujitsu they put the GI on and train it in its entirety. Same with boxing same with wrestling and so on.

There is no reason they could not do an internal system if they wanted to.

 

[drop bear]

There might be one very good reason....

That it is demonstrated with either a compliant partner or one with substandard skill.

I have been assured it is not the case.

Competition must be such a different animal to either training or self defence that the principles no longer work. I believe it must be the floor mats or something blocking the child.

 

[jezr74]

To use an analogy of our current national sport Australian Rules Football

I've turned off (I shouldn't say turned off, but I view it differently) it recently because there is too many athletes involved now and not enough sportsmen. They can run, and have stamina and fit as a fiddle, but their sportsman ship is very lacking, can't kick goals consistently, can't handball well, lack the natural sportsman ability. The sportsman may not be able to do 400 push ups or run a marathon, but they kicked goals, can pass the ball and read the game.

Not to say the others don't have their place, they can run the whole field and stay on longer etc. When you get someone that's both they are truly great to watch.


I think this is also the same for martial arts, some people will be athletic and have the strength, power and some will be natural martial artists capable of taking the art and technique itself to the next level. One has a physical limitation the other not, but always exceptions to the rule.

 

[drop bear]

To use an analogy of our current national sport Australian Rules Football

I've turned off (I shouldn't say turned off, but I view it differently) it recently because there is too many athletes involved now and not enough sportsmen. They can run, and have stamina and fit as a fiddle, but their sportsman ship is very lacking, can't kick goals consistently, can't handball well, lack the natural sportsman ability. The sportsman may not be able to do 400 push ups or run a marathon, but they kicked goals, can pass the ball and read the game.

Not to say the others don't have their place, they can run the whole field and stay on longer etc. When you get someone that's both they are truly great to watch.


I think this is also the same for martial arts, some people will be athletic and have the strength, power and some will be natural martial artists capable of taking the art and technique itself to the next level. One has a physical limitation the other not, but always exceptions to the rule.

Yes that exists but one does not define the other. So you can't say just because A. Is physical he cannot be technical. So if you were talking about a specific martial artist you could make that call.

But it is doubtful you can do it across the board.

If mma fighters were technical chumps. Then you could probably have cases where older but better martial artists could dominate. But I don't think they tend to be technical chumps. Which is why they have a shelf life. Everybody is competing at a sort of similar technical level.

So when they fail at the physicality they will loose fights. Regardless of their technicality.

 

[mook jong man]

That it is demonstrated with either a compliant partner or one with substandard skill.

I have been assured it is not the case.

Competition must be such a different animal to either training or self defence that the principles no longer work. I believe it must be the floor mats or something blocking the child.

Umm , or it could just be that it was an open day organized by that particular school , so why the hell would they be having it at an MMA gym?

How do you know the demonstration partner wasn't previously trained in a grappling art? , we get lots of people who have had serious training in other martial arts before they came to Wing Chun.

It must be so sad for you and others like you to have such closed minds and believe that you have seen it all , you haven't.
It is a big world and there are other ways of doing things that we still don't quite yet understand exactly how they work.

No one ever believes this stuff until they have felt it for themselves , and that is quite understandable.
I believe I am just wasting my breath here talking about this subject.
If you want to see how this stuff works , get your **** on a plane to Adelaide , South Australia and ask Instructor Tony Psaila to show you personally.