What is really the difference between TMA and MMA? False Dichotomy...

[Reedone816]

I agree with the sentiment but in most TMAs there is no gold medalist because there is no competition. However, that said, I agree that the older you get, the better you get. You understand that in most situations you can't use physical against physical any more and start to use your head.
:asian:

I put the gold medalist just as an example of tma over sports ma of the same name...
Or to be more precise, the odds of the younger generation to defeat the older generation is greatly diminished in tma as opposed to mma.
Heck even my current gm was defeated in an instant when tried to test his skill against his late master who back then needed help just to stand up...

 

[Transk53]

your training is there to push your limits - the only limiting factor in training is YOU and how hard you want to push yourself.

when i train - i train full on for an hour or more at any one time, there's n oroom for being lazy cos lazy = slow and that'll get you killed. you train speed through your punches, you build the muscles in your arms and shoulders so they can throw that punch faster with a quicker recoil on it so that any retaliation causes minimum damage.

and speed in any MA is built up over time - i can remember not being able to go the distance and getting properly trashed now i got the speed to protect myself a lot better and my reactions ro events are a lot more focused and dialed in --- i might not know what's coming next but cos of my reactions being better i can react better to the threat.

Yeah I don't disagree with at all. You train your mind as well to get it dialled in. Thing is though, the natural speed is what you train. So flurries would be in there in training. A slower puncher/kicker will try to optomise as well, I have had to emulate that as well, because my leg speed while quick, is economic, because I simply cannot go further due to physical limitations. Because of that I gone up top and trained to my advantage.

 

[drewtoby]

I put the gold medalist just as an example of tma over sports ma of the same name...
Or to be more precise, the odds of the younger generation to defeat the older generation is greatly diminished in tma as opposed to mma.
Heck even my current gm was defeated in an instant when tried to test his skill against his late master who back then needed help just to stand up...

Joint manipulation, if I may ask?

I believe any ma can be trained hard or leisurely. What you put in is what you get out.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

Some martial artist that rely too much on physical attributes will only go downward once you reach your peak age, while martial artist that rely on technique's understanding can still perform well even in the old age, like gene lebell and helio gracie (rip) that can still roll with the young.

I have to disagree with you on this.

If you depend on your "technique", there is always a limitation. If you depend on your "ability" (Gong, physical attributes), you will always get better and better. For example, if you work on the heavy bag, your punching power can only increase and will never decrease through your old age.

 

[qianfeng]

I know i practice cma but eye gouges and jointlocks arent the main part of most styles. All cma styles should have ti da shuai na

 

[Reedone816]

Joint manipulation, if I may ask?

I believe any ma can be trained hard or leisurely. What you put in is what you get out.

No, he was thrown and on his back.
And yes what you put is what you get.
But training hard doesn't equal to how much sweat you get out, but imho to how deep you understand the concept of the technique, and that can be increased by doing as many training as you could get under supervision of the master, so you can spot what you do wrong and correct it right away.

 

[drewtoby]

No, he was thrown and on his back.
And yes what you put is what you get.
But training hard doesn't equal to how much sweat you get out, but imho to how deep you understand the concept of the technique, and that can be increased by doing as many training as you could get under supervision of the master, so you can spot what you do wrong and correct it right away.

The idea of "training hard" is open for much interpretation. Thanks for pointing that out, as I was thinking of training under supervision and doing one's "homework"

 

[Reedone816]

I have to disagree with you on this.

If you depend on your "technique", there is always a limitation. If you depend on your "ability" (Gong, physical attributes), you will always get better and better. For example, if you work on the heavy bag, your punching power can only increase and will never decrease through your old age.

I cannot argue with that, I guess I'm mistaken in doing sweeping generalisation, thank you for pointing that out.
But there are some aspect that it decreased through old age isn't it and shifted from brute to more finesse in executing a technique? Because it is cost less stamina?
And for example a punch, a light one can still put mark on the body if we do it right on the right spot with some torque put in there, add the body weight in there also.
so knowing how to finesse something is it a technique also? A concept?

 

[Reedone816]

The idea of "training hard" is open for much interpretation. Thanks for pointing that out, as I was thinking of training under supervision and doing one's "homework"

Interesting of how you mention homework. In the system I currently in, it has unique trait that the more divergen the training partners you do 'roll' with, can also increase your understanding of the technique, because everybody is a unique entity they think and act differently on the stimulation we give.
For example executing A technique in A way may work in one person but doing the exact A way to different person may not work, you need to tweak it a bit so it will also work to different person, there you'll understand what is the core concept of the technique and what is thesupplemental side of it that is not set in stone and need to change depends on the person we execute it at.
That is our homework, to try it to as many people as we can get our hand on.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

I cannot argue with that, I guess I'm mistaken in doing sweeping generalisation, thank you for pointing that out.
But there are some aspect that it decreased through old age isn't it and shifted from brute to more finesse in executing a technique? Because it is cost less stamina?
And for example a punch, a light one can still put mark on the body if we do it right on the right spot with some torque put in there, add the body weight in there also.
so knowing how to finesse something is it a technique also? A concept?

IMO, all MA have the following 3 elements:

1. technique (timing, opportunity, angle, balance),
2. ability (strength, structure, alignment, unification),
3. experience (accumulated from sparring/wrestling).

When we get older, our speed, endurance, flexibility, balance that "technique" heavily depends on may be decreased. But our "ability" and "experience" will remain.

May be this is the major difference between TMA and MMA. Most TMA guys will think about how to bring their MA training through old age the day when they started their young age training. I don't know most MMA guys will think that far ahead (I could be wrong on this since "generalization" is not a good idea).

 

[Reedone816]

Ok noted, imho the way in utilising those first two depends on the third and how and in what perspective we see the first two is what each ma might differs.
Sent from my RM-943_apac_indonesia_207 using Tapatalk

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

Ok noted, imho the way in utilising those first two depends on the third and how and in what perspective we see the first two is what each ma might differs.
Sent from my RM-943_apac_indonesia_207 using Tapatalk

I agree that when you get older, you will modify your technique so you don't have to depend on your speed, strength, ... that much. For example, if you can bait your opponent to move in toward you, it can save you from moving in toward your opponent.

 

[RTKDCMB]

IMO, all MA have the following 3 elements:

1. technique (timing, opportunity, angle, balance),
2. ability (strength, structure, alignment, unification),
3. experience (accumulated from sparring/wrestling).

When we get older, our speed, endurance, flexibility, balance that "technique" heavily depends on may be decreased. But our "ability" and "experience" will remain.

May be this is the major difference between TMA and MMA. Most TMA guys will think about how to bring their MA training through old age the day when they started their young age training. I don't know most MMA guys will think that far ahead (I could be wrong on this since "generalization" is not a good idea).

Experience is the only thing guaranteed not to decrease with age.

 

[Jaeimseu]

IMO the experience beats youth thing is generally untrue. It depends on the rules, of course, but I'll put my money on the young athlete and expect to come out ahead.

I think GM'S are often like big brothers. They were able to beat us for so long that we can't wrap our minds around them being old and less able. I'm not trying to disrespect any GM's, but when people get older they don't get physically better....except maybe Barry Bonds.

 

[K-man]

IMO the experience beats youth thing is generally untrue. It depends on the rules, of course, but I'll put my money on the young athlete and expect to come out ahead.

I think GM'S are often like big brothers. They were able to beat us for so long that we can't wrap our minds around them being old and less able. I'm not trying to disrespect any GM's, but when people get older they don't get physically better....except maybe Barry Bonds.

You see, I would argue that you are looking at this discussion from a sport perspective. There is no way in the world I could compete in tournaments again. The last one I entered was 6 years ago when I was 30 to 40 years older than the other competitors. But in my Karate, Krav or Aikido classes I can still more than hold my own against all ages, and nobody gives me an inch. If I need to use my skills in a self defence scenario I have no doubt as to my ability to defend myself, and to me that is what my training is about. No rules!
:asian:

 

[Jaeimseu]

You see, I would argue that you are looking at this discussion from a sport perspective. There is no way in the world I could compete in tournaments again. The last one I entered was 6 years ago when I was 30 to 40 years older than the other competitors. But in my Karate, Krav or Aikido classes I can still more than hold my own against all ages, and nobody gives me an inch. If I need to use my skills in a self defence scenario I have no doubt as to my ability to defend myself, and to me that is what my training is about. No rules!
:asian:

Sport or not, I think the bigger issue is that it's a fantasy. No one is going to truly fight no rules and try to hurt or kill the other guy, especially not an instructor they have a good relationship with.

Now, I'm not saying that people can't be effective when they get old/older, only that I think the experience vs. youth thing is way overblown.

 

[donnaTKD]

IMO, all MA have the following 3 elements: 1. technique (timing, opportunity, angle, balance), 2. ability (strength, structure, alignment, unification), 3. experience (accumulated from sparring/wrestling). When we get older, our speed, endurance, flexibility, balance that "technique" heavily depends on may be decreased. But our "ability" and "experience" will remain. May be this is the major difference between TMA and MMA. Most TMA guys will think about how to bring their MA training through old age the day when they started their young age training. I don't know most MMA guys will think that far ahead (I could be wrong on this since "generalization" is not a good idea).

i know that a lot of of the people in the gym's that i go to aren't looking beyond fighting so i guess that once they decide to hang up their gloves that'll be it --- some will prolly continue the training but at a more relaxed pace just to keep in shape others will just carry on as they always have done cos they don't know any different. there are other factor like what's going on at home n stuff.

 

[donnaTKD]

as you get older you slow down - your mind doesn't work as well as it used to etc...... you might still be able to pull off all the moves that you did as a kid but experience will have engrained those moves to memory and when you can/can't use those moves.

for me youthfull enthusiasm and bravado will normally beat experience everytime. the kid that's got all the skills plus a lot of backing from his friends v someone older whose also got the skills but has been there seen it and done it --- you lose the enthusiasm for it after a few years - fighting just becomes "boring" so you're not into it.

you don't want to scrap but you have to spar but your hearts not totally in it cos you don't want to be fighting.

older = wiser - experience or no experience you know when to get out................

 

[K-man]

as you get older you slow down - your mind doesn't work as well as it used to etc...... you might still be able to pull off all the moves that you did as a kid but experience will have engrained those moves to memory and when you can/can't use those moves.

for me youthfull enthusiasm and bravado will normally beat experience everytime. the kid that's got all the skills plus a lot of backing from his friends v someone older whose also got the skills but has been there seen it and done it --- you lose the enthusiasm for it after a few years - fighting just becomes "boring" so you're not into it.

you don't want to scrap but you have to spar but your hearts not totally in it cos you don't want to be fighting.

older = wiser - experience or no experience you know when to get out................

Once again sport. You are talking of sparring. In Krav for example we have no sparring like you have in TKD. In our karate we get in and grab hold ... no sparring as such. We don't have 2 or 3 minute rounds, we have an explosive burst. We don't get penalised for not attacking. Most times your opponent is attacking you.

Sport is athlete against athlete in controlled circumstances. Self defence is against an attacker of unknown ability with no rules. That is why the thread of TMA vs MMA is really impossible to discuss rationally.

Donna, most of your posts since you came to MT are about competing and really hard training to maintain competitiveness. I'm not sure you even realise there is a totally different side to martial arts that is just as real as yours. In my world there are a good number of older martial artists that are extremely capable in any company.
:asian:

 

[Buka]

I'm at a training camp all weekend. Lots of instructors all over the place teaching. The youngest one is Rory Miller. And he must seem old to some of the kids. Most of the others are probably old enough to be his father.

Never fight with old people. They no longer have the endurance or patience to screw around. They'll just kill you. How the hell do you think we got old?