What is really the difference between TMA and MMA? False Dichotomy...

[mook jong man]

This thing about youth beating age may apply to external arts that depend a lot on strength and physical fitness.
But I can tell you it is totally irrelevant in the internal systems , with the internal methods the practitioners power and skill keeps increasing with age.

This might seem like fantasy to those who have never touched hands with senior members of these systems and I don't really give a stuff whether you believe it or not , but their ability to generate massive amounts of force goes beyond the mere physical or just having the correct biomechanics.

 

[donnaTKD]

Once again sport. You are talking of sparring. In Krav for example we have no sparring like you have in TKD. In our karate we get in and grab hold ... no sparring as such. We don't have 2 or 3 minute rounds, we have an explosive burst. We don't get penalised for not attacking. Most times your opponent is attacking you.

Sport is athlete against athlete in controlled circumstances. Self defence is against an attacker of unknown ability with no rules. That is why the thread of TMA vs MMA is really impossible to discuss rationally.

Donna, most of your posts since you came to MT are about competing and really hard training to maintain competitiveness. I'm not sure you even realise there is a totally different side to martial arts that is just as real as yours. In my world there are a good number of older martial artists that are extremely capable in any company.
:asian:

can understand what you're saying - i've only known competition and competitive environments and nothing else maybe there is another side to MA's that's quieter maybe more laid back etc..... but having no experience of this i can't talk about that side of things. if i had trained TMA as opposed to MT/MMA then my view would prolly be very different.

 

[Reedone816]

maybe there is another side to MA's that's quieter maybe more laid back etc...

Can't tell about other tma, but it is...
During weekly early night till tomorrow noon, we train like
When you tired, you rest,
When you hungry, you eat,
When you sleepy, you sleep, and
When you don't know, you ask...

Usually when some foreigners (once our school was being acknowledged by the aikido founder when the aikido dan grading thesis about our system was the only one passed)
Or even someone from outside looking at how we train, they're mostly taken aback.
They don't believe that our kind of training is fruitfull until they try to roll with the senior...

 

[K-man]

This thing about youth beating age may apply to external arts that depend a lot on strength and physical fitness.
But I can tell you it is totally irrelevant in the internal systems , with the internal methods the practitioners power and skill keeps increasing with age.

This might seem like fantasy to those who have never touched hands with senior members of these systems and I don't really give a stuff whether you believe it or not , but their ability to generate massive amounts of force goes beyond the mere physical or just having the correct biomechanics.

And the look on the face of the big strong young guy as he goes to the floor is priceless.

 

[hoshin1600]

their ability to generate massive amounts of force goes beyond the mere physical or just having the correct biomechanics

and this is where the divide begins.
i know for a fact of practitioners that are in their 60' and 70' that would, could and have, beaten the snot out of men in their 20's ands 30's in real street confontations. but when you start down the road of magical chi and fu fu dust powers, you lose me. i fully understand the difference between altheticism and martial skill. combative skills can continue to improve as we age but there is no getting around the fact that we age and our overall ability deteriorates. people often talk about great masters who can do all kinds of amazing things and i can tell you i have met a good amount of these "masters" myself and i know others who have gone to china and had the rare oportunity to "cross arms" with many of the great masters there as well...but there is no getting around the fact that it is not magic and all abilty can be attributed to bio machanics and skill. if you believe otherwise that is ok but i have seen too many instances where the ones who claimed to have that "something more" failed to be able to show it when asked so you will have to pardon my skepticism.
the op asked the difference between TMA and MMA, i dont think the argument about chi is fitting for this thread so lets just say, in TMA there are those that believe in chi and internal strength and in MMA in general they do not.
from my point of view the difference is in scope of vision. you have practiced and worked out for many years and you can beat up the world, lets say you are an unstopable super hero...NOW WHAT? so you can beat up anyone who stands before you, so what. you spent 20 , 30 , 40 years of your life for that? as someone once told me as a young man your still a scared little boy inside who fears the world and has a need to be able to fight and defend themselves against the boogie man. then as we age at some point we are not scared little boys anymore. there should to be a larger vision on why we train if you plan on continuing as we get older. TMA provides this while MMA does not. my cousin was a supurb male gymnast. he is in his 30's now and i asked him if he ever practices anymore and he looked at me like i had 3 heads and said "if your not compeating. what would be the point? why would you put your self through that if you were not compeating?" the same hold true for MMA. men like Randy couture, Gracie, ice man and ace franklin have a hard time admiting that its time to retire because in MMA when your done your done. there is not point to it after that.

 

[K-man]

and this is where the divide begins.
i know for a fact of practitioners that are in their 60' and 70' that would, could and have, beaten the snot out of men in their 20's ands 30's in real street confontations. but when you start down the road of magical chi and fu fu dust powers, you lose me. i fully understand the difference between altheticism and martial skill. combative skills can continue to improve as we age but there is no getting around the fact that we age and our overall ability deteriorates. people often talk about great masters who can do all kinds of amazing things and i can tell you i have met a good amount of these "masters" myself and i know others who have gone to china and had the rare oportunity to "cross arms" with many of the great masters there as well...but there is no getting around the fact that it is not magic and all abilty can be attributed to bio machanics and skill. if you believe otherwise that is ok but i have seen too many instances where the ones who claimed to have that "something more" failed to be able to show it when asked so you will have to pardon my skepticism.
the op asked the difference between TMA and MMA, i dont think the argument about chi is fitting for this thread so lets just say, in TMA there are those that believe in chi and internal strength and in MMA in general they do not.

I'm not sure why any discussion of chi/ki has to be 'magical' or dismissed as 'fu fu dust'. It is not magical and it goes way beyond simple biomechanics. It is also not easy to find someone teaching it. As you say, many people who claim to be using ki aren't, but if you do come across a practitioner who does teach it, it will change your training.
:asian:

 

[hoshin1600]

like i said K-man that would be a topic on its own, please feel free to start one if you would like to discuss it.

 

[K-man]

like i said K-man that would be a topic on its own, please feel free to start one if you would like to discuss it.

It's been done to death already. It just boils down to a bun fight where those who haven't experienced Ki bag those who have Actual discussion becomes impossible. The only way I will discuss it these days is via PM with those who are interested in genuine discussion.

 

[tshadowchaser]

What is the real difference between Traditional martial arts and MMA as we know it today? That's simple TIME is the difference. Traditional arts have been around a long time and that's why they are called traditional. MMA as we know it today has not even been around 40 years.
other points of difference are:
One is a sport the other could be called a way of life.
one has rules the other dose not

If MMA as we now know it is around in it's present form in another 50 years we may then call ot a traditional art as compared to what ever new concept come along

 

[donnaTKD]

Muay Thai is a way of life but i think that the sport side of Muay Thai has a shelf life whereby you decide that you've had enough but love the actual training side of things so then you focus on getting your technique etc..... nailed so that if you wanted to you could compete but choose not to.

i think that i'd be right in saying that MMA is a sport the participants have a shelf life and after that they just train, go the gym or whatever just like boxers do. boxers retire when they've taken too many hits to the head or wherever and just carry on training to stay fit after that.

 

[drop bear]

and this is where the divide begins.
i know for a fact of practitioners that are in their 60' and 70' that would, could and have, beaten the snot out of men in their 20's ands 30's in real street confontations. but when you start down the road of magical chi and fu fu dust powers, you lose me. i fully understand the difference between altheticism and martial skill. combative skills can continue to improve as we age but there is no getting around the fact that we age and our overall ability deteriorates. people often talk about great masters who can do all kinds of amazing things and i can tell you i have met a good amount of these "masters" myself and i know others who have gone to china and had the rare oportunity to "cross arms" with many of the great masters there as well...but there is no getting around the fact that it is not magic and all abilty can be attributed to bio machanics and skill. if you believe otherwise that is ok but i have seen too many instances where the ones who claimed to have that "something more" failed to be able to show it when asked so you will have to pardon my skepticism.
the op asked the difference between TMA and MMA, i dont think the argument about chi is fitting for this thread so lets just say, in TMA there are those that believe in chi and internal strength and in MMA in general they do not.
from my point of view the difference is in scope of vision. you have practiced and worked out for many years and you can beat up the world, lets say you are an unstopable super hero...NOW WHAT? so you can beat up anyone who stands before you, so what. you spent 20 , 30 , 40 years of your life for that? as someone once told me as a young man your still a scared little boy inside who fears the world and has a need to be able to fight and defend themselves against the boogie man. then as we age at some point we are not scared little boys anymore. there should to be a larger vision on why we train if you plan on continuing as we get older. TMA provides this while MMA does not. my cousin was a supurb male gymnast. he is in his 30's now and i asked him if he ever practices anymore and he looked at me like i had 3 heads and said "if your not compeating. what would be the point? why would you put your self through that if you were not compeating?" the same hold true for MMA. men like Randy couture, Gracie, ice man and ace franklin have a hard time admiting that its time to retire because in MMA when your done your done. there is not point to it after that.

That is true with most sports. But that drop off is with elite level fighters. You can still hobby train mma as you get older.

Even look at competitive chi sau. It is not a competition dominated by old men.

In mma you have to compete on an even playing field with the guy your training with so chi pretty much doesn't work.

 

[drop bear]

IMO the experience beats youth thing is generally untrue. It depends on the rules, of course, but I'll put my money on the young athlete and expect to come out ahead.

I think GM'S are often like big brothers. They were able to beat us for so long that we can't wrap our minds around them being old and less able. I'm not trying to disrespect any GM's, but when people get older they don't get physically better....except maybe Barry Bonds.

Sports like mma though you are expected to try to beat them. Even if they are supposed to be the super fighter guy. Loosing because you are less physical does not have the same loss of face as it does in tma.

In sport everybody gets caught out. That is just the reality of the training method.

 

[mook jong man]

That is true with most sports. But that drop off is with elite level fighters. You can still hobby train mma as you get older.

Even look at competitive chi sau. It is not a competition dominated by old men.

In mma you have to compete on an even playing field with the guy your training with so chi pretty much doesn't work.

That might be because the old men know competitive chi sau is ******** and wouldn't lower themselves by taking part.
If they were to go in it however , they would go through them like a hot knife through butter.

Wing Chun is purely based on skill it has nothing to with youth or muscular strength , the head of our lineage passed away a week and a bit ago but even at his advanced age he could throw people around like rag dolls and his power was quite literally frightening.

[video=youtube_share;YWjsr7Yr5tY]http://youtu.be/YWjsr7Yr5tY[/video]

 

[drop bear]

That might be because the old men know competitive chi sau is ******** and wouldn't lower themselves by taking part.
If they were to go in it however , they would go through them like a hot knife through butter.

Wing Chun is purely based on skill it has nothing to with youth or muscular strength , the head of our lineage passed away a week and a bit ago but even at his advanced age he could throw people around like rag dolls and his power was quite literally frightening.

[video=youtube_share;YWjsr7Yr5tY]http://youtu.be/YWjsr7Yr5tY[/video]

Really? He could of dominated he just chose not to?


OK we will go with that then.

Look. Mma is a system that welcomes new ideas. If a hundred year old man was throwing people around using chi then mmaers would be adopting that style.

 

[K-man]

Look. Mma is a system that welcomes new ideas. If a hundred year old man was throwing people around using chi then mmaers would be adopting that style.

One of my friends trains MMA fighters and promotes fights. We have discussed this concept. You are right on the money when you say it might well be a hundred year old man throwing people around because it takes many years of training to develop that level of understanding. I could predict right now, we won't see it in my lifetime.
:asian:

 

[drop bear]

One of my friends trains MMA fighters and promotes fights. We have discussed this concept. You are right on the money when you say it might well be a hundred year old man throwing people around because it takes many years of training to develop that level of understanding. I could predict right now, we won't see it in my lifetime.
:asian:

Take ten years to bb in judo and bjj. If there is a result at the end of it it is worth the trouble.

 

[mook jong man]

Really? He could of dominated he just chose not to?


OK we will go with that then.

Look. Mma is a system that welcomes new ideas. If a hundred year old man was throwing people around using chi then mmaers would be adopting that style.

No they wouldn't , because they wouldn't have the patience to practice the rather boring things like Siu Nim Tau form and stance exercises like pivoting everyday for the 40 to 50 years it took to reach his level.

 

[carloscrane]

MMA: According to my knowledge MMA is a sport. It is used for competitions. It has rules to protect its athletes. The objective is to win.

TMA: TMA is traditional martial arts. It keeps the traditions of a particular culture. It was created for self defense. There is only one rule and that is to do what is necessary to survive. The objective often is to maim or kill.

 

[donnaTKD]

i agree with your post

most of the strikes learnt in muay thai are about dispatching your opponent as fast and efficiently as possible. tma doesn't stop when the guys on the floor it carries on until the very end - often before the guy is on the floor

mma is just for sport it has a set of rules and a referee to stop things before they wind up being serious.

 

[Dirty Dog]

MMA: According to my knowledge MMA is a sport. It is used for competitions. It has rules to protect its athletes. The objective is to win.

TMA: TMA is traditional martial arts. It keeps the traditions of a particular culture. It was created for self defense. There is only one rule and that is to do what is necessary to survive. The objective often is to maim or kill.

What you say isn't really wrong, but it isn't really right either. Simply because there is a lot of overlap between sport and art.
And, too, I think it's safe to say that the goal of most TMA isn't to maim or kill. The goal may well be to end the fight, but that rarely requires maiming or killing your opponent.