What is really the difference between TMA and MMA? False Dichotomy...

[drop bear]

Umm , or it could just be that it was an open day organized by that particular school , so why the hell would they be having it at an MMA gym?

How do you know the demonstration partner wasn't previously trained in a grappling art? , we get lots of people who have had serious training in other martial arts before they came to Wing Chun.

It must be so sad for you and others like you to have such closed minds and believe that you have seen it all , you haven't.
It is a big world and there are other ways of doing things that we still don't quite yet understand exactly how they work.

No one ever believes this stuff until they have felt it for themselves , and that is quite understandable.
I believe I am just wasting my breath here talking about this subject.
If you want to see how this stuff works , get your **** on a plane to Adelaide , South Australia and ask Instructor Tony Psaila to show you personally.

Doesn't phase me do what you want.

But if you took it to a mma gym then you would know if it stacks up to a trained grappler who may not give that instructor any leeway. Most seminars you have to be a bit carefull of compliance.

It is exactly something we do. And sometimes we dominate and sometimes we get owned. So that we do experience it for ourselves. Just because someone can throw a bunch of his own students around doesn't necessarily mean that the technique works across the board.

And no I am not going to Adelaide any time soon.

 

[mook jong man]

There might be one very good reason....

As I said to the other guy it was an open day for this particular school so why would they be doing a demo at an MMA gym.

Do you normally do your Tae Kwon Do demos at Boxing Gyms?

No didn't think so.

 

[Jaeimseu]

As I said to the other guy it was an open day for this particular school so why would they be doing a demo at an MMA gym.

Do you normally do your Tae Kwon Do demos at Boxing Gyms?

No didn't think so.

They are under no obligation to prove anything. However, they could easily shut a lot of people up if they could demonstrate their skills in a place like an mma gym.

Taekwondo people generally don't do demonstrations at mma gyms either, but they also don't claim to have mental/mystical skills that allow people who are 100 years old to wipe the floor with younger, stronger people.

I'm sure that many people would love to be proven wrong/right about it. You'd think it would be easy to set up a demo that would do that.

I'm not trying to ramp you up. I'm just wondering why no one seems to have taken this type of skill to the mma context unless it's because they can't.

 

[drop bear]

As I said to the other guy it was an open day for this particular school so why would they be doing a demo at an MMA gym.

Do you normally do your Tae Kwon Do demos at Boxing Gyms?

No didn't think so.

We have open mat days. You are welcome to come in with any style you want. We are happy to have you. The only reason we hold seminars at MMA gyms is the facilities are better.

We regularly train with our local karate gym.

You could at any time come in and spar with one of our coaches. If you turn out to be awesome we are happy to learn your system.

 

[mook jong man]

They are under no obligation to prove anything. However, they could easily shut a lot of people up if they could demonstrate their skills in a place like an mma gym.

Taekwondo people generally don't do demonstrations at mma gyms either, but they also don't claim to have mental/mystical skills that allow people who are 100 years old to wipe the floor with younger, stronger people.

I'm sure that many people would love to be proven wrong/right about it. You'd think it would be easy to set up a demo that would do that.

I'm not trying to ramp you up. I'm just wondering why no one seems to have taken this type of skill to the mma context unless it's because they can't.

They are not mystical skills , it is the result of years of training to fully focus the mind.
They are only concerned with furthering their own training , they don't give a stuff whether people believe it or not.

People will always be sceptical about video , would not matter if they did it in a MMA gym or not , it will still not satisfy everybody.
What you are basically implying by using language such as "mystical skills" is that I am some sort of deluded idiot that indulges in some sort of fantasy training.

I can assure you I am a very pragmatic person , grounded in reality , if this type of training was bs I certainly would not have spent so much time trying to cultivate the skills.

As I said before , the only way people become believers of this type of training is to physically be on the receiving end of it.

Maybe you could hop on a plane to Adelaide as well and visit Instructor Tony Psaila , you could meet up with Dropbear , sample some of the wines at the famous Barossa Valley while your over there.

 

[K-man]

Here is a video of a man from the same lineage that's probably been training about 30 years , he has attained some level of "Nim Lik" but not to the same level as Sigung.

But I suspect the video will be just dismissed with the usual calls of "compliance" and just "trying to make the demonstrator look good" etc.

[video=youtube_share;0wm5YhUjqCo]http://youtu.be/0wm5YhUjqCo[/video]

Actually tried this at training tonight with non compliant partners. Cool! :s81:

 

[mook jong man]

Actually tried this at training tonight with non compliant partners. Cool! :s81:

Probably be a bit more effective if you knew Siu Nim Tau form K-man mate.
But anyway glad it worked out for you.

 

[mook jong man]

Don't really get why a solid stance and the ability to manipulate peoples balance and structure is seen as da "Mystical Skillz"

Suppose this one must be "Mystical" as well.

But hold on a second , the big guy in the video is clearly being compliant , he's not being aggressive and pushing hard enough blah blah blah.

TableTop ChiSau - YouTube

 

[Dirty Dog]

Actually tried this at training tonight with non compliant partners. Cool! :s81:

First thing I noticed was the angle of the shoulders. Notice that the arms of the volunteer are quite high, with his elbows above the shoulders of the (bigger) man applying the hold, and his chin is being forced down onto his cherst. These are signs of a good, strong, correct application of that hold.
Now look at the instructor. His elbows are much lower, nearly parallel to the floor, and his chin is NOT being forced down, indicating that the hold is being applied with much less pressure.

I'm not saying that controlling your body and that of your opponent is a bad thing. It is a good thing. Holding muscles tense is a bad thing. But this demonstration is inherently flawed simply because it is obvious that the hold is NOT being applied as aggressively when it's applied to the instructor.

 

[Jaeimseu]

Don't really get why a solid stance and the ability to manipulate peoples balance and structure is seen as da "Mystical Skillz"

Suppose this one must be "Mystical" as well.

But hold on a second , the big guy in the video is clearly being compliant , he's not being aggressive and pushing hard enough blah blah blah.

TableTop ChiSau - YouTube

Looks to me like the "aggressor" is standing flatfooted and not really attempting to push the guy off the stage. The other guy is up on the balls of his feet and leaning pretty heavily on the bigger guy.

I watched the video without sound (sleeping baby) but I don't get it. What if the other guy actually attacks or just decides to take both of them over the edge instead of just pressing their arms together? Or is this just a wing chun vs. wing chun thing?

 

[Dirty Dog]

Don't really get why a solid stance and the ability to manipulate peoples balance and structure is seen as da "Mystical Skillz"

Suppose this one must be "Mystical" as well.

But hold on a second , the big guy in the video is clearly being compliant , he's not being aggressive and pushing hard enough blah blah blah.

TableTop ChiSau - YouTube

If the "attacker" used proper body mechanics, the "defender" would go right off the stage. One good thrust kick...

 

[mook jong man]

First thing I noticed was the angle of the shoulders. Notice that the arms of the volunteer are quite high, with his elbows above the shoulders of the (bigger) man applying the hold, and his chin is being forced down onto his cherst. These are signs of a good, strong, correct application of that hold.
Now look at the instructor. His elbows are much lower, nearly parallel to the floor, and his chin is NOT being forced down, indicating that the hold is being applied with much less pressure.

I'm not saying that controlling your body and that of your opponent is a bad thing. It is a good thing. Holding muscles tense is a bad thing. But this demonstration is inherently flawed simply because it is obvious that the hold is NOT being applied as aggressively when it's applied to the instructor.

Very observant Dirty Dog .
What you have noticed is the application of structure in the first instance , the volunteer from the audience has no structure so his head is already bent forward by the pressure.

But the senior instructor on the other hand has already set up his structure (straight spine) and does not allow his head to be bent forward.

It can be extremely difficult to pull the head down or bend the spine of a senior Wing Chun person , the force just goes straight down through the stance and into the floor.

 

[Steve]

It must be so sad for you and others like you to have such closed minds and believe that you have seen it all , you haven't.
It is a big world and there are other ways of doing things that we still don't quite yet understand exactly how they work.

I don't see anyone here with a closed mind but you, so far. You clearly have a chip on your shoulder. I haven't seen anything in this thread besides curiosity and what looks like healthy skepticism. You said, "No one ever believes this stuff until they have felt it for themselves , and that is quite understandable."

Whether you mean to be or not, you're saying some pretty derogatory things about people who train in MMA, lazy, close minded, impatient... and the list keeps growing.

The techniques in boxing, muay thai, BJJ, wrestling or any other martial art style are all grounded in bio mechanics and physics, not strength and athleticism. MMA doesn't change that at all.

Fitness is a big part of MMA training, as it is in any sport. Why? Because, where technical ability is equal, the edge in a competition is fitness. In golf, the swing should be effortless. When you hit the ball correctly, you don't even feel it when the club head hits it. But, the elite level golfers know that a fit body and fit mind can be the edge necessary to prevail at the very top of the sport.

 

[mook jong man]

If the "attacker" used proper body mechanics, the "defender" would go right off the stage. One good thrust kick...

That thrust kick would be detected as soon as he lifted his foot off the ground , that is the whole point of chi sau.
Changes in pressure as well as weight shifts are sensed through the arms.

 

[mook jong man]

Looks to me like the "aggressor" is standing flatfooted and not really attempting to push the guy off the stage. The other guy is up on the balls of his feet and leaning pretty heavily on the bigger guy.

I watched the video without sound (sleeping baby) but I don't get it. What if the other guy actually attacks or just decides to take both of them over the edge instead of just pressing their arms together? Or is this just a wing chun vs. wing chun thing?

It is a Wing Chun vs Wing Chun thing.
Chi sau to be exact.
They are trying to search for gaps in each others defence , if the other guy did try and draw back to try and strike he would be immediately hit.
The Wing Chun arms are like springs that go forward to strike when there is no counter pressure.

It is just an example of how the Wing Chun stance is able to absorb a great deal of force and channel it down to the ground.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

Actually tried this at training tonight with non compliant partners. Cool! :s81:

A proper "head lock" has to meet the following requirements:

- Your upper body has to bend forward between 45 to 90 degree.
- You have to be in a solid low "horse stance".
- Your non-head locking arm should control one of your opponent's arms (This will leave your opponent with only 1 free arm).
- Your opponent's head has to touch on your chest.
- Your "head lock" should make your opponent's spine to bend (side way is better than forward).
- The elbow of your "head locking" arm has to point vertically straight down to the ground (This is the most important guideline. When doing this, your opponent's structure has been crashed).

In the following clip, his head locking elbow is pointing "horizontally sideway" which does not meet the requirement. To be able to escape and counter a weak and improper "head lock" is easy. Every technique has counters. To escape a proper executed technique will not be easy. When your structure has been crashed and your spine has been bent, there will be no counters that you can apply at that moment.

[video=youtube_share;0wm5YhUjqCo]http://youtu.be/0wm5YhUjqCo[/video]

 

[K-man]

A proper "head lock" has to meet the following requirements:

- Your upper body has to bend forward between 45 to 90 degree.
- You have to be in a solid low "horse stance".
- Your non-head locking arm should control one of your opponent's arms (This will leave your opponent with only 1 free arm).
- Your opponent's head has to touch on your chest.
- Your "head lock" should make your opponent's spine to bend (side way is better than forward).
- The elbow of your "head locking" arm has to point vertically straight down to the ground (This is the most important guideline. When doing this, your opponent's structure has been crashed).

In the following clip, his head locking elbow is pointing "horizontally sideway" which does not meet the requirement. To be able to escape and counter a weak and improper "head lock" is easy. Every technique has counters. To escape a proper executed technique will not be easy. When your structure has been crashed and your spine has been bent, there will be no counters that you can apply at that moment.

[video=youtube_share;0wm5YhUjqCo]http://youtu.be/0wm5YhUjqCo[/video]

I think we are talking of different things. Here we are talking of a full Nelson. There is no free arm and the head is pushed away from the chest. The applications in the video are the way it is normally taught. The secret is not to allow it to be applied in the first place because once it is on it is extremely difficult to escape. However I doubt that many people could escape this hold the way the guy in the video did, not using strength. Hats off to you if you can.
:asian:

 

[drop bear]

Don't really get why a solid stance and the ability to manipulate peoples balance and structure is seen as da "Mystical Skillz"

Suppose this one must be "Mystical" as well.

But hold on a second , the big guy in the video is clearly being compliant , he's not being aggressive and pushing hard enough blah blah blah.

TableTop ChiSau - YouTube

Mostly because the only people who can do it are chunners on chunners. for some reason it never relates to competition. And as a fundamental process it should.

So there is something there that is getting stopped when it is actively resisted.

 

[Dirty Dog]

The secret is not to allow it to be applied in the first place because once it is on it is extremely difficult to escape.
:asian:

I say that a LOT to our students. Learn to recognize the what hold they're going for, and don't let them have it. It is pretty much ALWAYS going to be MUCH harder to get out once the hold is properly applied.

 

[Steve]

I think we are talking of different things. Here we are talking of a full Nelson. There is no free arm and the head is pushed away from the chest. The applications in the video are the way it is normally taught. The secret is not to allow it to be applied in the first place because once it is on it is extremely difficult to escape. However I doubt that many people could escape this hold the way the guy in the video did, not using strength. Hats off to you if you can.
:asian:

The full nelson escape is pretty fundamental. Bring your elbows down. I don't see anything mystical about it, but neither do I see anything uniquely WC. What makes this "escape" unrealistic is the reaction of the partner after having his grip broken.

You can see how similar this demonstration is to what is taught in BJJ/GJJ:

[video=youtube_share;-f8_lvLCWjo]http://youtu.be/-f8_lvLCWjo[/video]

Also for comparison are the four typical head lock defenses in BJJ/GJJ:

[video=youtube_share;6U1znsPw0vI]http://youtu.be/6U1znsPw0vI[/video]