What are edged weapon systems that aren't based in dueling and have principles that translate over to real world altercations?

[elder999]

The specialists I've spent time with tell me that face attacks are more reliable, and translate across edged weapons of varying quality and make.

"Specialists?"

 

[GreenieMeanie]

"Specialists?

Weapons systems practitioners, people who've applied the stuff in real life and cross-trained.

 

[Deleted member 39746]

See i would say HEMA is pretty good for weapons but it depends on the treatise/master and what you mean by duel. As i know some treatises or segements are about judicial duels, so strictly about becoming good in this type of dueling, some use dueling more to mean two people fighting, maybe 3. I am unsure if any cite muiltiple people or what the wording used is.

i havent really read a military one to comment on the comparision between the two. Damn i have to get Meyers treatises i just realised.

See, even if you fight against muiltiple people if they are spaced out enough you are effectively dueling muiltiple people in succession, and you should aim for something like that against groups in the first place, line them up and knock them down in sequence.

 

[jergar]

-Applicable in real-world altercations (aren't based in dueling)

-Don't emphasize bio mechanical cutting

-Have methods applicable with improvised pointy objects or poor quality blades

All I've been able to come across so far is Piper and Libre.

Hi all knive fighting systems are based on older systems, say a system was developed at a time before guns. Those techniques would be deadly to say the least because at the time everyone using them were for life or death situations. Humans are very adept at finding out what works and what doesn’t. I have a friend who was a guard at a prison and he told they would find prisoners with a pencil stuck in their neck or other places , it doesn’t matter what it is where there’s a will there’s a way, find a system that suits you and then improvise. I trained with a person who was trained in Japan in ninjitsu he could kill you with a bottle cap if need be. Thanks you got me thinking!

 

[BigMotor]

You ask as if you have an answer in mind...

Real knife attacks are direct, simple, and straight forward. Most of the time, the first clue that there's a knife in the game is the bleeding.

If you start out facing each other with a knife, it's a form of dueling.

Knife attacks are fearful things, and someone can drop dead, right on the spot. I guess everyone knows that by using common sense.

That is something that any knife fighter needs to answer, which is, what will I do to save myself?

I mentioned in another post, that killing is easy; but the fighter needs to know that for himself. In a real fight somebody might die, either you or the other guy. The deadly aspects of it, are as serious as gun fighting, just closer in.

That conundrum is up to the fighter to solve. Because if you underestimate your opponent, he may kill you. So pick the system that teaches defense more than offense, IMHO. Escape and evade.

 

[elder999]

Weapons systems practitioners, people who've applied the stuff in real life and cross-trained.

You mean ex-cons?

Weapons systems practitioners, people who've applied the stuff in real life and cross-trained.

Or special forces?

'Cause it sounds like you mean ex-cons.

 

[Deleted member 39746]

'Cause it sounds like you mean ex-cons.

I thought your generally done if you stab somone, let alone stab them near to death or to death? If you dont have a defence for doing so anyway.

Byt done i mean your not getting out for a while if at all.

 

[elder999]

I thought your generally done if you stab somone, let alone stab them near to death or to death? If you dont have a defence for doing so anyway.

Byt done i mean your not getting out for a while if at all.

This sounds suspiciously penal:

The specialists I've spent time with tell me that face attacks are more reliable, and translate across edged weapons of varying quality and make.

Play the video of the guard getting shanked (with an "edged weapon of varying quality and make" ) and listen until the end for his injuries.

 

[Deleted member 39746]

Play the video of the guard getting shanked (with an "edged weapon of varying quality and make" ) and listen until the end for his injuries.

Youtube has a thing where unless you Id yourself in your account you cant watch age restricted videos anymore. its not just make an account to watch them anymore, so thats a shame. (if you wernt aware, not everyone could watch it)

 

[elder999]

Youtube has a thing where unless you Id yourself in your account you cant watch age restricted videos anymore. its not just make an account to watch them anymore, so thats a shame. (if you wernt aware, not everyone could watch it)

Prisoners in Santa Fe shanking a guard, who was treated for those "effective" face and head wounds.

 

[Flying Crane]

I'm well aware of the reality of knife attacks. I'm just looking for systems that have already extracted what's pragmatic from traditional systems such as FMA or Silat.

Extracted what is pragmatic? Maybe context matters. Meaning: the system provides a foundation and platform on which the techniques actually work. Maybe the whole system needs to be understood, in order for any/all of it to work the best.

When people talk about extracting what works and dumping the rest from a system, I become immediately suspicious that they have not studied the method, do not understand it, and have cherry-picked a handful of superficial techniques and tricks based on what they think looks cool.

here is a suggestion: when it comes to developing a strong understanding/skill level in martial arts, whether it is an armed or unarmed method, there are no shortcuts. It takes some amount of dedication to the training, to develop a reasonable level of real skill, beyond some superficial tricks. Context matters, meaning it is the system as a whole that makes it work.

 

[Steve]

Can someone just let me know when this thread is at the point where we can post things that are funny? I’m dying to make a lightsaber related reference.

 

[Steve]

Extracted what is pragmatic? Maybe context matters. Meaning: the system provides a foundation and platform on which the techniques actually work. Maybe the whole system needs to be understood, in order for any/all of it to work the best.

When people talk about extracting what works and dumping the rest from a system, I become immediately suspicious that they have not studied the method, do not understand it, and have cherry-picked a handful of superficial techniques and tricks based on what they think looks cool.

here is a suggestion: when it comes to developing a strong understanding/skill level in martial arts, whether it is an armed or unarmed method, there are no shortcuts. It takes some amount of dedication to the training, to develop a reasonable level of real skill, beyond some superficial tricks. Context matters, meaning it is the system as a whole that makes it work.

Kind of. Every system actually used as a system is an incomplete version of other systems, even if you think it’s not. The act of a person teaching someone else everything ignores all of the tacit knowledge and experience the instructor gained that cannot be directly taught to someone else. Teachers influence students but at some point the student accumulated unique experience, and the style evolves.

Simply put, you learn what sticks, apply it, learn some more, figure some things out on your own, and so on. at the very most, you are teaching a mostly complete version of what you were taught.

So, personally, I’m not too hung up on the idea of cherry picking techniques. You don’t have to know everything there is to know about BJJ to be a successful MMAist. And what you do choose to focus on may be specifically tailored to your application.

shoot, you don’t even have to know everything there is to know about BJJ to be successful in BJJ. There’s a certain rhythm to things where techniques and styles fall out of favor and then a few years later are “rediscovered”.

 

[drop bear]

Weapons systems practitioners, people who've applied the stuff in real life and cross-trained.

I think you might be looking at the wrong things.

And the knife fighting community really isn't very reliable. Which is probably why you are looking at the wrong things.

 

[GreenieMeanie]

You mean ex-cons?

Or special forces?

'Cause it sounds like you mean ex-cons.

Military and LEO.

 

[GreenieMeanie]

Extracted what is pragmatic? Maybe context matters. Meaning: the system provides a foundation and platform on which the techniques actually work. Maybe the whole system needs to be understood, in order for any/all of it to work the best.

When people talk about extracting what works and dumping the rest from a system, I become immediately suspicious that they have not studied the method, do not understand it, and have cherry-picked a handful of superficial techniques and tricks based on what they think looks cool.

here is a suggestion: when it comes to developing a strong understanding/skill level in martial arts, whether it is an armed or unarmed method, there are no shortcuts. It takes some amount of dedication to the training, to develop a reasonable level of real skill, beyond some superficial tricks. Context matters, meaning it is the system as a whole that makes it work.

The context is edged weapons of varying quality, about 3 inches long, and their applicability in modern street violence.

 

[GreenieMeanie]

This sounds suspiciously penal:

Play the video of the guard getting shanked (with an "edged weapon of varying quality and make" ) and listen until the end for his injuries.

In terms of nonlethal and distancing.

 

[GreenieMeanie]

Kind of. Every system actually used as a system is an incomplete version of other systems, even if you think it’s not. The act of a person teaching someone else everything ignores all of the tacit knowledge and experience the instructor gained that cannot be directly taught to someone else. Teachers influence students but at some point the student accumulated unique experience, and the style evolves.

Simply put, you learn what sticks, apply it, learn some more, figure some things out on your own, and so on. at the very most, you are teaching a mostly complete version of what you were taught.

So, personally, I’m not too hung up on the idea of cherry picking techniques. You don’t have to know everything there is to know about BJJ to be a successful MMAist. And what you do choose to focus on may be specifically tailored to your application.

shoot, you don’t even have to know everything there is to know about BJJ to be successful in BJJ. There’s a certain rhythm to things where techniques and styles fall out of favor and then a few years later are “rediscovered”.

BJJ gives you foundation of movement and setting up joint locks/chokes, but the technique, at least in my experience, changes a little bit once self-defense is taken into consideration.

My focus is the current nature of violence, which largely involves ambush tactics, improvised weapons, and edged weapons not much bigger than 3 inches that can be made out of just about anything, and pop knives and spitting razors depending on where you look on the map.

The problem with the old Asian arts in their traditional form, is that you have to spend years with the decorum and original contexts of those systems, until you find what translates over well to now. It's very difficult to find JJ that isn't based in competition and that goes back to its medieval roots, assuming armor and blades. It's also difficult to find FMA that hasn't tossed the dance element, and drops the assumption that you're a farmer wielding field knives, short swords or machetes....at least that has been my experience.

 

[Flying Crane]

The context is edged weapons of varying quality, about 3 inches long, and their applicability in modern street violence.

I am not confused by that. Do you understand what I said?

 

[GreenieMeanie]

I think you might be looking at the wrong things.

And the knife fighting community really isn't very reliable. Which is probably why you are looking at the wrong things.

The systems I've spent the most time with are Libre and Piper.

Libre is largely influenced by the feedback of military and law enforcement in 3rd world countries, especially in places where criminals do not give a ___ and are well armed. One of the practioners I've met is a guy who served, that's successfully used it in life or death situations on mutiple occasions.

Piper is the codification of how street gangs use edged weapons in SA. It's basically the bastard child of Silat and the Numbers gangs.