L.A. Sheriff Memo Circulating

[Doc]

Wow Doc, pretty in depth and raises some good points.
I have to wonder if some of what was discussed in it like the tunnel vision - focusing on one target is in some way mitigated by schools that practise say mass attacks or techniques by multiple attackers.

Not really. Although 'mass attack' drills are relevant, they would be out of place relative to adapting and learning decent direct one-on-one self defense skills. Many that choose these situations are ignoring the reality of attaining competency on the more likely to occur scenarios, which in themselves are rare.

Law enforcement has mutilple and possible confrontations everyday, whereas the majority of civilians have no significant confrontations in their adult life time.

 

[Flying Crane]

The article is about training from the public law enforcement perspective, which is very specific in its application and approved perameters.

Maybe part of the problem is that it wasn't entirely clear (at least to me) that this was really aimed specifically at the training of law enforcement personnel. I did get that as part of what was written, but I wasn't clear that it was really the primary focus.

Certainly martial training for law enforcment would have an approach designed for very specific results that might be different from what a civilian would want. Some comments and statements made by the authors seemed to be aimed at the martial arts community at large, and not stictly at law enforcement programs.

 

[Doc]

Bode

I'm not trying to stir things up...It just seemed like a contradiction. I don't agree with everything in the article either. I don't know anything about SL4 and this is all I could find where I could actually see some of it.

BTW - I think the drill has merit, but I know it has to go beyond that. The "how" is all I'm trying to find out...

With Respect...:asian:

upnorthkyosa

I understand you curiosoty, but I'm trying to see how if you actually read the post, that it became an SL-4 issue. If anything I would think the disussion, if it had to center on a style, would move toward the one mentioned in the post.

 

[Doc]

Couldn't disagree more. Take a class from law enforcement trainers (for a law enforcement perspective) and you will discover that much of what he is saying is correct ABOUT LAW ENFORCEMENT TRAINING. This is the perspective from which he is generally speaking.



As we have seen from his example, if true, that not all martial artist would stay away. And I have also seen, either personally or through reports written by police officers, where those who have had some type of training do get involved in situations they should otherwise stay out of. And most of those people are cops, who should know better than to get into off-duty incidents.



Agreed, most of what I have seen is that people who handle a knife in this manner are those that do know how to fight with one.



Agreed again.



I think you are misunderstanding what he is saying here. I don't believe he is saying that this is how sparring should be practiced, but how it is often practised by martial arts schools with which he is familiar.

More importantly, I think that what he is saying is that a lot of striking methods that are taught are inadequate. And having taken those classes, I would completely agree.




And you help prove his point. Most fights don't start from a "guard" position. They usually start when the defender (officer) is not in some type of "guard" position. Training to fight beginning in only the "guard" position doesn't allow for the spontaneousness of the street. And the direction from which one is attacked is not always directly to the front, rear, or side, but usually somewhere in between. That is what he is refering to as that angle of attack.

I would suggest that if you took a serious look at what law enforcement officers have to do, plus the training (or more likely, lack of training) that they recieve, you would find that his arguments have extreme merit. And it is from this perspective that he is speaking.

I think your approach to the article was pretty good. I would however take exception to the knife position as held by a novice. Although the knife point downward may signal to SOME martial artist the idea the holder has 'special' skills, this is far from the norm in assaults of this nature. In fact, knives held this way, are the MOST common type of attack from the UNSKILLED," and comprise such a significant portion of knife assaults, that ALL OTHER type knife attacks are statistically non-existent in the latest F.B.I. Uniform Crime Statistics report gathered from ALL law enforcement agencies in the country. This is unchanged from what these reports have displayed since the report procedure was instituted decades ago. Good discussion, keep it going.

 

[Makalakumu]

I understand you curiosoty, but I'm trying to see how if you actually read the post, that it became an SL-4 issue. If anything I would think the disussion, if it had to center on a style, would move toward the one mentioned in the post.

I read the peice and IMO, it is describing how we "practice" our martial arts. It isn't an issue of style, per se, more like "how one trains" with the style. I posted the video of SL4 because its all I've ever seen of the style, it seems to contradict some of the points in the article, and it is the style of the poster who started this thread...Doc. There are alot of styles that do those sorts of drills however, mine included.

The point is that the article says that that type of training is not only worthless, but it is dangerous. What do people think about this?

IMO, I think its a very narrow view of things. These patterns are only one aspect of training.

 

[Doc]

Maybe part of the problem is that it wasn't entirely clear (at least to me) that this was really aimed specifically at the training of law enforcement personnel. I did get that as part of what was written, but I wasn't clear that it was really the primary focus.

Certainly martial training for law enforcment would have an approach designed for very specific results that might be different from what a civilian would want. Some comments and statements made by the authors seemed to be aimed at the martial arts community at large, and not stictly at law enforcement programs.

No you're right. The original article was aimed at both, but re-circulated to the department.

 

[Doc]

I read the peice and IMO, it is describing how we "practice" our martial arts. It isn't an issue of style, per se, more like "how one trains" with the style. I posted the video of SL4 because its all I've ever seen of the style, it seems to contradict some of the points in the article, and it is the style of the poster who started this thread...Doc. There are alot of styles that do those sorts of drills however, mine included.

The point is that the article says that that type of training is not only worthless, but it is dangerous. What do people think about this?

IMO, I think its a very narrow view of things. These patterns are only one aspect of training.

Once again sir, this article and discussion are not about SL-4. Perhaps you should disuss how YOU approach these points in Tang Soo Do.

 

[Flying Crane]

I posted the video of SL4 because its all I've ever seen of the style, it seems to contradict some of the points in the article, and it is the style of the poster who started this thread...Doc.

John,

Doc started the thread, but he is not the author of the article. He was simply passing it along to stimulate discussion. The article itself has nothing specifically to do with SL4, nor Doc's views on things, unless by coincidence.

 

[eyebeams]

Once again sir, this article and discussion are not about SL-4. Perhaps you should disuss how YOU approach these points in Tang Soo Do.

If you didn't want discussion centered on kenpo then I wonder why it is in this subforum at all, since, y'know, it's a kenpo subforum.

 

[Kembudo-Kai Kempoka]

What I like about the article/memo is that it puts a spotlight on some glaring training errors that pepper the MA community at large. True, not all train this way, but enough do for it to be an issue.

The article, however, does seem to have an agenda embedded just below the read. Immediately, I'm more suspicious/curious about thier source-work for references.

It does make some good points around adrenal dump training. As well as challenging some of the sillier assertions of "combat" grappling applications of sportive techniques.

Regards,

Dave

 

[Kembudo-Kai Kempoka]

If you didn't want discussion centered on kenpo then I wonder why it is in this subforum at all, since, y'know, it's a kenpo subforum.

Speak of the devil...I really only see you post in anything related to Doc when you have some fun to poke or bone to pick. You do it here, as far as the limits can be stretched with MT moderation, then shoot over to Bullshido to do it more nastily where such "friendly" modration standards do not apply. If you only pop on here to give crap to people you've never met, why pop on at all? Your consistent provocation does not add anyting to the conversation at hand; in fact, it sucks the joy out of what was hitherto a perfectly fine day, and fully functional, non-combative thread in which at least some were interested in keeping the subject on topic, and not degrade the thread into finger-pointing and name calling. Did he/we (meaning we silly SL4-happy folk) accidentally piss in your cheerio's in a past life, or something?

BTW...you do kenpo? (as I've noticed you're posting here in this sub-forum, too).

Regards,

Dave

PS -- get lost, you fight-seeking troll. Your pissy, baiting antics are neither appropriate nor welcome here. Go back to bullshido, and stay there. They actually like your crap.

 

[Bode]

If you didn't want discussion centered on kenpo then I wonder why it is in this subforum at all, since, y'know, it's a kenpo subforum.

Here we go again... any way you can find a way to argue with Doc you will. I used to be the nice guy and say, "We're just not communicating propertly." Nope. Not true. You just like to start arguments.
Regardless, Doc already answered your question, that is of course, if you read the replies. Oh hell, here is the quote:

"It is posted under the Kenpo Section because that is a significant part of my background, and most purport to be "self-defense based."

In addition, people are trying to make it about SL4, not what THEY understand/train. If the discussion revolves around SL4 then the thread will be effectively an SL4 thread... and dead.

 

[eyebeams]

Here we go again... any way you can find a way to argue with Doc you will. I used to be the nice guy and say, "We're just not communicating propertly."

No, you're the guy who accused me of a racism over on Bullshido for daring to question Doc. You have no intention of being the "nice guy." EPAKer, please.

 

[Lisa]

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[Jonathan Randall]

IMO, full of straw man arguments and self-aggrandizing bluster - mixed in with some hard truths that MOST long term martial artists that I know are already aware of.

BTW, even when I was a kid and trained at what I now consider a McDojang Black Belt factory, the instructor told us to RUN from a knife if at all possible because armed beats unarmed almost all the time.

 

[eyebeams]

Speak of the devil...I really only see you post in anything related to Doc when you have some fun to poke or bone to pick. You do it here, as far as the limits can be stretched with MT moderation, then shoot over to Bullshido to do it more nastily where such "friendly" modration standards do not apply. If you only pop on here to give crap to people you've never met, why pop on at all? Your consistent provocation does not add anyting to the conversation at hand; in fact, it sucks the joy out of what was hitherto a perfectly fine day, and fully functional, non-combative thread in which at least some were interested in keeping the subject on topic, and not degrade the thread into finger-pointing and name calling. Did he/we (meaning we silly SL4-happy folk) accidentally piss in your cheerio's in a past life, or something?

You guys are so bloody sensitive, aren't you? Hell, I didn't say a damn thing about SL-4 here, nor have I in quite some time. I figure you know how I feel about that.

The fact that you people find a simple statement that a thread in a kenpo forum should actually be about kenpo offensive has nothing to do with me.

BTW...you do kenpo? (as I've noticed you're posting here in this sub-forum, too).

I do.

PS -- get lost, you fight-seeking troll. Your pissy, baiting antics are neither appropriate nor welcome here. Go back to bullshido, and stay there. They actually like your crap.

On bullshido. this thread would be filled with profanity. It would also discuss actual techniques. What is notable about this thread is a specific appeal *not* to discuss a particular kenpo technique in regard to the matter at hand.

 

[Kembudo-Kai Kempoka]

What is notable about this thread is a specific appeal *not* to discuss a particular kenpo technique in regard to the matter at hand.

OK. I'll bite. The Delayed Sword video being circulated is an adjunct tool -- a "class note", if you will, for use by SL4 practitioners and teachers for the specific purpose of annotating -- via exaggeration -- specifics embedded within the technique that aid with learning integration. A "video mnemonic", if you will. "Never let monkeys eat bananas" means absolutely nothing out of context of the study group trying to memorize white blood cell types (NLMEB = neutrophils, lymphocytes, etc.). It is a nunya...as in business, and was made by SL4 study group members, for SL4 study goup members, to e.x.a.g.g.e.r.a.t.e. and e.m.p.h.a.s.i.z.e. points covered in live training (i.e., lecture). It's a review note; not a demo. And the viewing public, seeing it out of context, without the foggiest about what they are seeing, are dense enough to draw uninformed conclusions, as if they ARE informed. If anyone is silly enough to firmly believe that it represents SL4 kenpoists, how they move, what they do as a kenpo technology, they are invited to do one of two things:

1. Live with their stupidity, or

2. Come on by and train with us. You can step onto the mat and see for yourself if we are full of ****, or perhaps onto something.

No, it's not a veiled threat, in the vein of "come by and get yer butt kicked", though some have opted to show up with more attitude than curiosity or spirit of friendship. It is an invitation to come by and learn a bit about that which you know not of, but yack on about anyways. Until, the criticisms are words without meaning...like monkeys with bananas.

Regards,

Dave

 

[eyebeams]

OK. I'll bite. The Delayed Sword video being circulated is an adjunct tool -- a "class note", if you will, for use by SL4 practitioners and teachers for the specific purpose of annotating -- via exaggeration -- specifics embedded within the technique that aid with learning integration.

I'd actually be more interested in discussing whether it's appropriate or wise for a cop to whack a dude like that. I have little interest in what that video may or may not mean within the labyrinthine contexts of American Kenpo's technical corpus, as I don't study it and have no horse in the race among its innumerable substyles.

 

[Makalakumu]

1. Live with their stupidity, or

2. Come on by and train with us. You can step onto the mat and see for yourself if we are full of $hyt, or perhaps onto something.

There may be a third option for those of us who are not complete nimrods and just want to learn a little more about a style, but do not have the opportunity to train with you. Just throw a bone and explain how SL4 deals with these issues.

Anyway, I'll start by following Doc's invitation to explain how Tang Soo Do deals with this stuff. First of all, Tang Soo Do is a genaric term. There are lots of different styles and lots of different approaches. My particular lineage is through Hwang Kee and the Soo Bahk Do Moo Duk Kwan federation. Basically, all of the legitimate criticisms leveled in the article applied. There were some good points to the training, but the actual "rubber meets the pavement" was little to be desired. What I have done in response is detailed in the Superior Tangsoodo forum. This is the hosted forum for my school.

Basically, it has entailed revamping our entire curriculum. My teacher began the process by pulling out of the federation and throwing out all of the dangerous and ultimately futile patterns that were practiced. He also started trimming some of the sillier techniques like the double jumping inside out kicks and the kicks that would have kicked over Shaq's head. My teacher has had years of practical experience in law enforcement and he is actively involved in local throwdowns so it was pretty easy for him to find out what didn't work and what did. Heck, we were having a weekly throwdown with lots of other people for years!

Our ultimate solution is that we cross trained and pressure tested the material...and we sparred with contact and with intent. We kept three questions in mind whenever we approached something.

1. Is the attack realistic?
2. Is the attacker's response realistic?
3. Will this work against someone who resists 100%?

The bottom line is that we are a work in progess. We started as a martial art with alot of good nuggets and whole lotta blind spots and now we are trying to fill in the gaps. Check out our forum if you want to learn more. We certainly don't have everything figured out and your input is appreciated.

Which is why I'm very interested in what ya'll are doing to address some of these issues...

 

[Jonathan Randall]

The bottom line is that we are a work in progess. We started as a martial art with alot of good nuggets and whole lotta blind spots and now we are trying to fill in the gaps. Check out our forum if you want to learn more. We certainly don't have everything figured out and your input is appreciated.

Which is why I'm very interested in what ya'll are doing to address some of these issues...

Good for you! The TSD I studied, while technically brilliant, lacked most elements that we now know are essential for a complete fighter.

First of all; some of the issues raised by the article CAN'T be addressed by unarmed fighting techniques, IMO. There are inherent human limitations, that we ALL face, that cannot be completely overcome. However; what you're doing is a main part of the answer, IMO.