L.A. Sheriff Memo Circulating

[Ants]

I'm sorry,

I'm a cop in New Zealand and at no point would any instructor of the Police recommend any form of unarmed engagement of an attacker with a knife, bat, paper clip or just nutting off other than to talk to the person in a calming manner while calling for any available unit to back them up.

At the very least in New Zealand the sequence is likely to follow: Voice appeal (just talking to them to find out their motivation/intention, Telling them that if the do not comply with instructions they will be sprayed (O/C spray and probably baton until the individual is restrained by cuffs and another officer has them secured), if that does not work I imagine most cops over here would back off while keeping the individual in sight until a dog handler and armed unit were able to arrive. If it was not able to be resolved using a Tactical options Model then any cop over here would hopefully be spraying the individual with a knife and then using their baton.

But the origianl post does raise one good point that I have always taken to 'real life violence' and that is 'If you play by rules in a fight (i.e. waitingfor their correct attack so that you can apply the counter while standing in a good fighting stance.) you are going to get your backside kicked.

 

[Carol]

The article referrs to martial artists as deluded fools in their own reality.

The article also make cops look like plagiarizing crybabies boo hooing over (gasp) keeping their skills current.

Shame, because there are a lot of martial artists that are a lot better than that. There are a lot of police officers that are better than that.

This does no justice to either.

 

[Kembudo-Kai Kempoka]

There may be a third option for those of us who are not complete nimrods and just want to learn a little more about a style, but do not have the opportunity to train with you. Just throw a bone and explain how SL4 deals with these issues.

I'm gonna have ta do this in chapters, due to the extent of the memo, and the numerous points covered within. I agree whole-heartedly with some of the points as being pandemic in the arts, but not with all of them. I can speak to them from my own experience as a "mixer", changing kenpo with an eye towards progressive development. I can also speak to the SL4 solutions, as I understand them; I am a fan of SL4, specifically because it deals with many of these concerns rather abruptly and honestly, as compared to kenpo versions taught out of store-front studios with rent to pay. I am not, however, an SL4 certified teacher, so I hope to be helped in this endeavor a bit by Bode and Doc as such items arise that I cannot address correctly.

In my own opinion, many of the criticisms leveled towards martial artists in this diatribe are spot on; not to the whole, mind you, because there will always be dedicated individuals who seek to look beyond the initial database they are handed. But a large number of kenpoists are, in my own humble opinion, deluding themselves as to their abilities. Most are untested, and can be seen over time to avoid placing themselves in circumstances that would test them. It is...unprofessional/unethical/unwise to suggest to students that they go out and get in frequent fights with a variety of opponents in order to expand their horizons combatively. However, what CAN be done is to survey people who DO frequent altercations, and make some determinations as to what worked, what didn't, and what may have had it been applied.

I gotta split now, but I'll get back to this with specifics tomorrow. Both from my own experiences, and from my understanding of SL4.

Regards,

Dave

 

[Bode]

No, you're the guy who accused me of a racism over on Bullshido for daring to question Doc. You have no intention of being the "nice guy." EPAKer, please.

I post only to let people judge how you communicate for themselves. If anyone feels necessary, the thread referred to in the above statement is here. After reading I'm sure most will see who the nice guy is.

BTW, I am not an EPAKer as you refer to me. I do SL4 Kenpo. What type of Kenpo do you practice Eyebeams?

Our ultimate solution is that we cross trained and pressure tested the material...and we sparred with contact and with intent. We kept three questions in mind whenever we approached something.

1. Is the attack realistic?
2. Is the attacker's response realistic?
3. Will this work against someone who resists 100%?

Sounds like you have a good teacher. Someone who strives to make the material work in real situations. Teachers like that are rare.

With the intent to share I will do my best to help Dr. Dave explain how we deal with the comments in the article. Not right now though, tired...

 

[Makalakumu]

At the very bottom of the article there is a checklist of questions that one can use to evaluate an art. I will attempt to answer them in relation to how we practice Tang Soo Do up here in Superior Wisconsin.

Do the instructors make statements that seem unrealistic or exaggerated?

Maybe. I think we do the best to keep our training pragmatic. My teacher is a law enforcement trainer and he has lots of practical experience with violence, so I trust that experience.

Are any of the training or combative methodologies based on sporting practices, or are claimed to have cultural or traditional significance?

Yes. This isn't always a bad thing though. I think the sportive aspects of training create a friendly environment where one can test things and find what really works. As far as the cultural or traditional aspect goes, I can see how it could be negative and how it could be positive.

Do the instructors demonstrate self-defence techniques where the attacker's strikes are easily blocked?

http://www.martialtalk.com/forum/showthread.php?t=32622
http://www.martialtalk.com/forum/showthread.php?t=32514

Do the techniques taught appear highly skilled, complicated, or even ridiculous?

http://www.martialtalk.com/forum/showthread.php?t=34158

As I said before, we've parred down many of the most rediculous techniques. Particularly, the kicks.

Is there a heavy emphasis or reliance upon grappling techniques?

We practice tuite, randori and newaza, but it is not the FOCUS of our training. Just another aspect.

Does the training ignore the specific need to improve attributes such as timing, reflexes, coordination, spontaneity, speed and power plus the intangible qualities such as purpose, confidence, spirit and will to win?

I don't think so, but I'm in my own fishbowl on this. I think that I drive my students to develop these things and I believe that I see improvement in them.

Are students required to memorise complicated series of techniques?

Yes and no. The patterns are not complicated. They are starting points where variations on themes can be easily made.

Here is some more information on this subject...

http://www.martialtalk.com/forum/showthread.php?t=33409
http://www.martialtalk.com/forum/showthread.php?t=31800

Is a large proportion of training time dedicated to activities of minimal relevance?

I'm not sure what this means. I believe that he is talking about some of the more esoteric aspects of the art. Then, the answer is NO. When we enter the dojang, we come to bust our butts. The training is very physical.

Does the training ignore the need to provide an appreciation of the realities of real violence and a field-proven method of fear reduction?

http://www.martialtalk.com/forum/showthread.php?t=31869

Is training or combative methodology used that has not been field-proven as efficient and effective for its intended purpose?

We do our best to pressure test our material and offer as much realistic resistence as is safely possible.

http://www.martialtalk.com/forum/showthread.php?t=31764

Do the instructors have little or no practical appreciation of the situations students may face?

My teacher is a law enforcement trainer and has decades of experience in the field. I'm not involved in a profession that deals with alot of violence (we get some being that I teach at-risk youth), however, I have been a bouncer, a security guard, and a treatment counselor. I wouldn't consider myself to be an expert, however, and I rely on my teacher's experience.

Do instructors attempt to produce good body mechanics by making continuous adjustments to body movements (as a golf professional would do to produce a good golf swing)?

I do some of this. Mostly, so the student can perform the technique fluidly. I try to let the student's body be the one that dictates the adjustments.

Is training for techniques, defenses or attacks carried out using both sides of the body equally?

Absolutely.

Is there a reliance or heavy emphasis on pressure point or joint manipulation?

We use them as tools, but they are not the focus. Here is how we look at pressure points in TSD.

http://www.martialtalk.com/forum/showthread.php?t=32751

Are multiple responses learned to a visual or physical cue?

Yes and no. I teach multiple responses and the students pick and choose which ones best fit their bodies and those are the ones they train.

Are too many techniques learned?

Hard to say. I try to tell my students that less is more, but we certainly do have an extensive curriculum.

Are students required to perform large set numbers of technique repetitions?

Sometimes. I don't know why this is a bad thing.

Well, I tried to answer the questions as best as I could. For more information on what we do, here is our forum URL. If you have any questions for me or want more info, let me know. Don't be shy.

 

[eyebeams]

One core problem related to protecting oneself from a knife is the dichotomy between flight and confrontation. Ryukai kenpo (my art) recognizes that the blade down position is not "unskilled" at all, since similar movements are used for the knife and kama. The knife down position creates severe defensive wounds even if it doesn't hit the core of the body. Nevertheless, if confronted by a knife, you must either get away or enter and seize control of the weapon.

In live drills where the knife is both concealed and out, one aspect that has greatly contributed to avoiding and surviving is to keep from being completely square to the attacker. If you present on an angle this gives your arms more play and adds distance to the opponent's attempts to stab you in the torso.

Assuming you can't run, you will generally be unable to secure a grip right away and it will be difficult to get to the outside of the attacker. We often use a staggered "scissors" movement with the arms. If the attacker is coming in with his right, the left jams and *your* right comes down to control. This is often seen in FMA as well and is the true effective application of the normally mis-taught "cross block." This is one of several possible techniques but it's conceptually illuminating.

Again, this is assuming that you cannot retreat to a safe distance.

As for police, the Tueller Drill (http://www.theppsc.org/Staff_Views/Tueller/How.Close.htm) comes to mind, but as I am not a police officer and have heard that this is being rethought, some discussion on this would be relevant.

 

[eyebeams]

The basic movement I'm talking about is here:
http://www.psdtc.com/Kali/kali.4.jpg
http://www.psdtc.com/Kali/kali.5.jpg

In case any of you thought I was talking about the karate "X-block." The idea works on multiple angles and has worked when I've done it at full speed. The only caveats is that it does not work all the time (what does?) and the people in the photos leave more distance open than I have found to be effective.

More food for thought can be found in Karl Tanswell's STAB program, discussed here:

http://www.martialtalk.com/forum/showthread.php?t=33967

 

[5-0 Kenpo]

The article referrs to martial artists as deluded fools in their own reality.

The article also make cops look like plagiarizing crybabies boo hooing over (gasp) keeping their skills current.

Shame, because there are a lot of martial artists that are a lot better than that. There are a lot of police officers that are better than that.

This does no justice to either.

From my perspective of being involved in approximately 6 different martial arts in my lifetime, only my current one teaches techniques appropriate to a real-life attacks. All of the others were more appropriate for a sporting environment. That is not to say that with the proper understanding that something couldn't be gleaned from it that will be beneficial in a real attack. But generally, that is not what I have seen from most schools.

Now, in regards to police officers, most of them can't stand training. You don't know how many times I hear my fellow officer complain about having to train in general, use-of-force in particular. Very few cops take the time to go to outside training to improve their unarmed combat skills. We tend to win because there are more of us in a given engagement then there are bad guys.

 

[Danjo]

From my perspective of being involved in approximately 6 different martial arts in my lifetime, only my current one teaches techniques appropriate to a real-life attacks. All of the others were more appropriate for a sporting environment. That is not to say that with the proper understanding that something couldn't be gleaned from it that will be beneficial in a real attack. But generally, that is not what I have seen from most schools.

Now, in regards to police officers, most of them can't stand training. You don't know how many times I hear my fellow officer complain about having to train in general, use-of-force in particular. Very few cops take the time to go to outside training to improve their unarmed combat skills. We tend to win because there are more of us in a given engagement then there are bad guys.

Look at those episodes of COPS sometime. You often see two or three of them struggling with some skinny criminal that's resisting arrest (not always, but often enough). Half of the time on those shows it looks like the criminals would get banged around less, if the officers had more skill.

However, in your experience, do the officers you work with hate to train that stuff because they think they don't need it, or because they think it's not realistic to their needs?

 

[Doc]

Look at those episodes of COPS sometime. You often see two or three of them struggling with some skinny criminal that's resisting arrest (not always, but often enough). Half of the time on those shows it looks like the criminals would get banged around less, if the officers had more skill.

The general public has been indoctrinated through the media to believe that cops have some extraordinary skills in the martial arts, (including shooting). In truth cops learn how to survive on the job, and that 'fancy martial arts stuff that don't work' isn't even a consideration for most.

However, in your experience, do the officers you work with hate to train that stuff because they think they don't need it, or because they think it's not realistic to their needs?

I've beeen a defensive tactics trainer for professional law enforcement since the mid-seventies, and in my experience police are jaded for a variety of reasons. They either recognize or discover the hand-to-hand techniques they have been taught are inadequate on the street. And the amount of time allotted on the job for officers who want to train is inadequate, and personnel shortages restrict the officers free time to explore additional training on their own. Also ever changing departmental policies are becoming more and more restrictive with unrealistic goals. influenced by 'fad martial arts' and civilian legal policy makers.

 

[BallistikMike]

Eye gouges, throat strikes, repeated blows to vital targets/organs, cycling hammer fist strikes to the jaw hinge, temple, jaw hinge, bridge of nose, etc...

ALL get good LEO's out of a bad situation, they also get them sued, fired, disciplined, fined, suspended. Its one advantage a citizen capable of doing those things has over a police officer. They can quietly walk away or claim self-defense. The LEO needs to do more with fewer tools.

May be one of multiple reasons Mr. Chapel went on his journey in Kenpo.

Could also be why others have taken the journey of a different path.

Their environment of daily living was less or more dangerous. Citizens that live in the areas where LEOs only patrol...well live it 24/7 not 9 to 5 (Believe me I know there is more then 9 to 5 in a LEO's job).

That job/environment/daily living has a HUGE bearing on what you think MA's should be. Its why things are so diversified and why people are always right about their chosen art. Because it fits them in their environment. Its also why people think so many are wrong about what they study.

Its also why the memo was right and wrong in various ways to myself. Ive never been a cop, Ive never had to rescue or bust people. Who am I to judge the LEO who wrote it or what he thinks of self-defense/martial arts/hand to hand combat training?

I know I am capable of knocking people out with a good 1 -2 . I know I am capable of breaking bear hugs and headlocks and keeping my footing in a scuffle. I know because I have done it in my environment (Bar/Restaurant Owner) on a weekly basis for nearly 17 years now.

I have know idea how I would react being part of a team taking down bad guys in a drug raid or kicking in the door of a domestic disturbance or seeing my partner lying bleeding as a scum bag runs away. I have no clue. I like to think I would react right, but hell thats not my environment I have no idea...Ive never done it.

That memo is based off of what they do, not what we/I do.

LOL...again was I even on topic....ranting I cant help it.

 

[Brian R. VanCise]

My experience in the Law Enforcement Field, Security, Loss Prevention and DNR has been that hand to hand training is given a very low priority and administrators are generally concerned more about lawsuits and less about providing their officers with good training. Certainly training is available but generally it is given on a yearly basis or at best on a quarterly basis.

The LEO's that seek me out are interested in improving their skill sets to complement their current training. Many feel that their current training is just not enough.

Having said that, many officers will simply not go to any sort of training unless it is mandated and their department pays for it. One officer that I know said to me last time we talked that he would not go to any training because it was for younger guys and that he would not ever allow someone to take him down or get that close again. (This was an older road officer by the way)

Consequently when we watch cops or see any video of LEO's in a struggle we generally see some that have little training and certainly they could improve what they are doing with more training. However, few are willing to go out and get the extra training on their own.

Some programs would work great for LEO's and other ones might not address their specifc needs!

Brian R. VanCise
www.instinctiveresponsetraining.com

 

[Danjo]

Thanks for the replies which I enjoyed reading. I can relate to what was said about the problems of having an arsenal of techniques to use, but not being able to use it. As a teacher of High School behavior conduct disorder kids, I have to break up on average of 8-12 fights per year and have to otherwise physically control students several other times during the course of the year. But I have to be very careful about not actually hurting these people which is not always easy to do depending on their size and how aggressive they're being. No one would appreciate it if Johnny came home with a broken jaw regardless of the fact that he was in the process of beating the hell out of a student 40 pounds lighter and was refusing to stop. I was once dragged along the floor by a 6'3" 300 lb. Samoan kid who was hell bent on eliminating another student. Thank God I slowed down the Kid I was hanging onto long enough for the other one to get away and that the student I was hanging onto didn't decide to turn his aggression onto me.

 

[Andy Moynihan]

Just finished reading.

Again, not being a Law enforcement officer i may be looking through a different lens, but just the same I'm having an attack of some serious " S.C.A.R.S." flashbacks( anyone remember them?)

 

[Danjo]

Just finished reading.

Again, not being a Law enforcement officer i may be looking through a different lens, but just the same I'm having an attack of some serious " S.C.A.R.S." flashbacks( anyone remember them?)

Good God! I bought those videos back in 92' I think the dude's name was Jerry Robinson. What a total joke. that was the LAST thing I ever bought from those clowns at TRS.

 

[Carol]

Ants, 5-0 Kenpo, Dr. Chapél, Danjo, Ballistik Mike...

Thanks so much for your input and perspective. I can see your points of view a lot better now. :asian: