The "accuracy" of HEMA

[jayoliver00]

This was an excellent post. Sorry it took me so long to it, mostly b/c it was so long. But I want to read it in full + responding in detail, out of respect for you taking the time.

Since there are a number of LARP groups with varying rules, I'm going to make some generalizations, using the Dagorhir rules as a representative example.

First stick fighting:

• Attacks to the head and to the hand holding the weapon are disallowed. In an actual stick fight those are the most important targets. It wouldn't take much adjustment for a LARPer to start targeting those body parts in a real fight. However defending against attacks to the head and weapon hand when you aren't accustomed to it is a whole other thing. That takes time and practice.
• Body dynamics for developing power. It takes a lot of work to develop reliable knockout power with a single handed stick. I just watched a few videos of Dagorhir battles and sparring. The overwhelming majority of "kills" came from shots which would not have stopped a determined opponent if delivered with a stick. (I do get that the weapons are intended to simulate swords and the like. I'll address that in the next section. I just mention it because you brought up LARPing originally in the context of someone practicing stick work for self defense.)
• As a follow up to the above, even people who are good at hitting really hard with a stick don't generally manage to land knockout shots every time. This means that in a real stick fight you have to be conditioned to keep on attacking and defending even after landing or being hit by a clean shot with a stick.

This is all true to a certain extent. In Dagorhir, many of the people are Nerds and out of shape. Some do swing full blast, and it does hurt like a medium punch/kick. Most swing medium. Although they do encourage to swing at full power. For some reason, I have problems swinging hard at people with these foam weapons, and rarely do; although I have no problem fighting in the ring/cage and hard spar with KO intentions, when it's agreed upon.

There was one FMA guy, about 200+ lbs that was beating me about 4 out 5 exchanges when we both had 2 foam sticks. I was getting frustrated so I got my 6 ft. glaive and hit him at full power at the thigh, just like a Thai kick. He went down in pain, grabbing his leg and stayed down for at least 2 mins. This was all legal; my weapon passed safety inspection (done at each battle). I was apologizing profusely. This guy was a Cop and a Blue in BJJ w/at least 4-5 gold medals at local tourneys, so he def. wasn't weak.

Now in sparring, we don't swing that hard on each other. More finessing. And then there's the cheat sticks, where they're very, very light; allowing you to throw a bunch of unrealistic shots to win tournaments.

And the not allowing head shots is my biggest complaint. Most of them cry a lot when they get hit in the head accidentally. Although I've been grazed in the eye by one of these foam swords and couldn't see for quite a while. I would like to see helmets being a requirement to allow head shots. Although I don't think it's that big of a stretch to slash someone in the head.

• Per the Dagorhir rules that I've found online, the allowable grappling doesn't seem to include throws or joint locks. (I don't see chokes mentioned, are those allowed? Also, if throws are disallowed, does that mean that ground fighting is out as well?) If you watch enough Dog Brothers fights, you'll see that throws and takedowns come up reasonably often in stick fighting. Sometimes joint locks as well.

Dagorhir is nowhere near the level of brutality as Dog Bros. Dag is still Nerd Larping, just the toughest of the Nerd Larper. You can grapple, but the TD's should be gentle (although not specifically noted). Throws & submissions are not allowed. I usually just single or double or ankle pick them and then full mount and stab with my foam knife.

In my year 1-2, I was losing a lot....so I started kicking dudes that charged at me with their shields (legal). I would send them airborne, backwards. Then I was TD'ing the ones that pissed me off. But then, people would run away from me during battles and not play with me. I got the message so in year 3, I kept grappling & teeping to a bare minimum and only against big, stronger dudes or some of the BJJ blues & purple that I know.

• The rules also disallow punching and kicking, both of which can be very useful in stick fighting. (You did mention kicking the shield, which is a bit different.)

You can only kick at their shield. They are allowed to charge with their shield & ram; so if the Teep is timed right, they'll go flying backwards.

• Padded weapons do behave a bit differently from hard sticks when they make contact with each other. It's not a huge difference, but it's worth considering.
• The padded weapons and limited targets make the sport safe and significantly reduce the risk of pain and/or injury. This isn't a criticism - I approve. Even for martial training, I do my best to avoid injury and avoid an excess of pain and bruising. However it does highlight one of the tradeoffs we face in martial arts. As we make our training higher impact, we gain better understanding of the realities of a fight and condition our bodies and minds to deal with those realities. Unfortunately we also increase our chances of short term injuries (which can interrupt our training) and also serious long injuries which can adversely affect our lives. We all have to find the right balance of intensity and impact for ourselves. I've done more hard impact training than many people, but less than others. LARPing is on the lighter, safer end of the spectrum which is absolutely fine but does take it further away from actual martial application.

True, Dag Larping is more accessible to people who can't afford full armor and safety gear. Some guy can try it out by borrowing a foam weapon and play all day. Minimal gear is a pair of mma gloves to protect the hands + a $40 bat. Although my glaive was $100 and the good/cheater ones out of carbon fiber is $200. Foam shields are $40-100.

What's the minimal starter cost for HEMA?

(I'll continue later with the next section of your post).

 

[lklawson]

I think this is where Kata would work really well

Depending on what you think the point or purpose of kata is.

as you just need to touch to cause damage.

wellll.....

 

[Tony Dismukes]

In Dagorhir, many of the people are Nerds and out of shape. Some do swing full blast, and it does hurt like a medium punch/kick. Most swing medium. Although they do encourage to swing at full power.

I think it's less of a matter of being in shape and more a matter of correct body mechanics for generating power. If you don't train people to use their full body for power generation and the rules allow you to score with simple arm power, then a lot of people are going to end up playing boffer tag. I suspect a lot of the people who consistently land solid shots are those with prior experience in other systems.

There was one FMA guy, about 200+ lbs that was beating me about 4 out 5 exchanges when we both had 2 foam sticks. I was getting frustrated so I got my 6 ft. glaive and hit him at full power at the thigh, just like a Thai kick. He went down in pain, grabbing his leg and stayed down for at least 2 mins.

Yeah, pole arms can generate a lot of power. It's actually kind of a limiting factor in how historically accurate we can make pole arm sparring, even with padded/rubber heads and protective equipment. Sometimes on the battlefield even a knight in full plate armor could be knocked down, concussed, or injured by a full power swing from a pole arm. I think the best we can do is probably mix up various levels of sparring intensity according to the level of protective gear and padding on the practice weapon, and then do kata practice and pell work for the hardest hitting techniques.

And then there's the cheat sticks, where they're very, very light; allowing you to throw a bunch of unrealistic shots to win tournaments.

Yeah, some FMA groups have this same issue where they train with super light rattan sticks. Likewise modern kendo shinai are much lighter and faster than the swords they are supposed to be emulating. Even in HEMA, we have a tendency to compete with swords which are on the lighter end of the historical spectrum. (They're still within the boundaries of historical accuracy, but on the lower end. If we went with sparring weapons which matched the heaviest historical examples of that type, it would be harder to maintain safety without also requiring heavier protective gear.)

I usually just single or double or ankle pick them and then full mount and stab with my foam knife.

Oh cool, you can do takedowns, just not throws where you pick people up and slam them? Very nice.

Despite having a strong grappling background, it's taken me about 6 months to get to the point where I've started integrating my grappling into my sword sparring. I knew what to do theoretically, but it took a while to make the mental switch while going live at speed. I'm still feeling out the necessary adjustments and highest percentage techniques when grappling with swords, but so far I've had success with armlocks, takedowns, and just wrapping the opponent's arms so I can stab them with my sword. Next I need to start carrying a training dagger in my belt for stabbing a downed or entangled opponent. (That's not kosher in most tournaments, but there's nothing stopping us from including it in our club sparring.)

True, Dag Larping is more accessible to people who can't afford full armor and safety gear. Some guy can try it out by borrowing a foam weapon and play all day. Minimal gear is a pair of mma gloves to protect the hands + a $40 bat. Although my glaive was $100 and the good/cheater ones out of carbon fiber is $200. Foam shields are $40-100.

What's the minimal starter cost for HEMA?

This is a major advantage of LARP over HEMA - the expense. Our club has loaner gear for newcomers and most people gradually purchase their full kit bit by bit. I just did some pricing and you could probably assemble the minimum necessary protective gear and steel sword for tournament longsword competition for about $800. I was spending my stimulus check money, got everything at once and went a bit over $1000. You could go cheaper if you are just interested in technique practice and light sparring in your local club, but even then it would probably run a few hundred dollars. (Synthetic swords are about half the price of steel swords, but I don't like them much, at least for the system I'm practicing.)

 

[Tony Dismukes]

This is a major advantage of LARP over HEMA - the expense. Our club has loaner gear for newcomers and most people gradually purchase their full kit bit by bit. I just did some pricing and you could probably assemble the minimum necessary protective gear and steel sword for tournament longsword competition for about $800. I was spending my stimulus check money, got everything at once and went a bit over $1000. You could go cheaper if you are just interested in technique practice and light sparring in your local club, but even then it would probably run a few hundred dollars. (Synthetic swords are about half the price of steel swords, but I don't like them much, at least for the system I'm practicing.)

I should add that if you want a sharp sword for cutting practice (which I think is important for fully understanding the sword), that's going to cost a minimum of $200. Mine ran $350 and it can go up considerably from there.

Also, I should add that there are HEMA systems which require a bit less in the way of protective gear and so would run a bit cheaper. Technically, HEMA includes Ringen (medieval wrestling) so you could practice that with no start up cost at all. I'm not sure why you would want to, since there isn't much of anything in Ringen that you can't find in modern grappling systems.

Theoretically, you could start a HEMA group training with just padded swords and fencing masks, as long as you limited yourself to technical drills and light sparring. I think this approach will ultimately be limiting, but it could be a low cost way to begin.

 

[Blindside]

Also, I should add that there are HEMA systems which require a bit less in the way of protective gear and so would run a bit cheaper. Technically, HEMA includes Ringen (medieval wrestling) so you could practice that with no start up cost at all. I'm not sure why you would want to, since there isn't much of anything in Ringen that you can't find in modern grappling systems.

Theoretically, you could start a HEMA group training with just padded swords and fencing masks, as long as you limited yourself to technical drills and light sparring. I think this approach will ultimately be limiting, but it could be a low cost way to begin.

Singlestick (aside from ringen) is the cheapest entry into HEMA. Starter kit would be mask, back of head protector, lacrosse gloves, cup, gorget, rattan stick, and some kind of basket. Maybe some elbow pads and catcher shin guards if you are allowing leg shots. Call it $200 with a little shopping around. And most of that gear continues to work as you scale up gear to synthetics and metal over time.

 

[lklawson]

Singlestick (aside from ringen) is the cheapest entry into HEMA. Starter kit would be mask, back of head protector, lacrosse gloves, cup, gorget, rattan stick, and some kind of basket. Maybe some elbow pads and catcher shin guards if you are allowing leg shots. Call it $200 with a little shopping around. And most of that gear continues to work as you scale up gear to synthetics and metal over time.

Historically speaking, the gear required for safety was much less than that. Allanson-Winn's book is a typical example.

Peace favor your sword (mobile)

 

[Tony Dismukes]

Historically speaking, the gear required for safety was much less than that. Allanson-Winn's book is a typical example.

Peace favor your sword (mobile)

I’d phrase that as “historically speaking, practice was much less safe than most of us would consider acceptably safe today.”

For example, in the German longsword tradition I’m studying, historical tournaments would typically involve blunt steel feders of roughly the same type we use now, but no headgear. Blows would be aimed at the head and the winner would be the one who made his opponent’s scalp bleed more. I personally think I will take a pass on that sort of historically accurate practice.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

I’d phrase that as “historically speaking, practice was much less safe than most of us would consider acceptably safe today.”

For example, in the German longsword tradition I’m studying, historical tournaments would typically involve blunt steel feders of roughly the same type we use now, but no headgear. Blows would be aimed at the head and the winner would be the one who made his opponent’s scalp bleed more. I personally think I will take a pass on that sort of historically accurate practice.

Ow.

 

[Tony Dismukes]

Ow.

The goal was to demonstrate one's skill and manliness without serious injury. (I don't think that they understood the long term effects of concussions.) Thrusts were illegal in competition because they had a high risk of fatality. Participants mostly focused on being able to land technically clean blows which would cause bleeding rather than hitting with maximum power and caving in someone's skull. If you killed someone in a tournament then you risked being charged with murder and having the city council ban future tournaments.

 

[lklawson]

I’d phrase that as “historically speaking, practice was much less safe than most of us would consider acceptably safe today.”

For example, in the German longsword tradition I’m studying, historical tournaments would typically involve blunt steel feders of roughly the same type we use now, but no headgear. Blows would be aimed at the head and the winner would be the one who made his opponent’s scalp bleed more. I personally think I will take a pass on that sort of historically accurate practice.

I was referring specifically to single stick. Not the Old Gamesters version of single stick where the goal was similar, to draw an inch of blood from the head, but the late 19th century. A heavy style fencing mask and gloves, with a light Ash or rattan single stick were pretty much the requirement. From what I've been able to research, what we would consider serious injuries were not particularly common with this setup. Bumps and bruises were frequent but concussions and broken bones were uncommon. To the later end of the practice people started adding a bit more armor to protect from even the bruises, heavier style fencing jackets and cricket style arm & leg protection were more common. Personally speaking, I've been single stick pretty regularly with just a standard fencing mask, fencing jacket, and gloves with some heavy leather bracers for wrist protection. Depending on our rules that we agree on at the time, I might add elbow and knee pads too but those are super cheap from the hardware or construction store. A few dollars for them.

Going backwards into the old style longsword competitions as typified by Meyer, yeah, I agree, much much more dangerous.

Peace favor your sword (mobile)

 

[Deleted member 39746]

I’d phrase that as “historically speaking, practice was much less safe than most of us would consider acceptably safe today.”

For example, in the German longsword tradition I’m studying, historical tournaments would typically involve blunt steel feders of roughly the same type we use now, but no headgear. Blows would be aimed at the head and the winner would be the one who made his opponent’s scalp bleed more. I personally think I will take a pass on that sort of historically accurate practice.

wernt judical duels to actual maiming or death common for the german states at the time?

I cant remmeber but i swear somone wrote a tretise on, or included several forms of judical duel in it, it could have been Meyer.


Now i do have a question, whats the diffrence between German longsword and English? I dont think english lognsword is as well doccumented or preserved as german.

 

[Tony Dismukes]

I cant remmeber but i swear somone wrote a tretise on, or included several forms of judical duel in it, it could have been Meyer.

There are some treatises on judicial duels, but Meyer did not cover that context in his writing.

Now i do have a question, whats the diffrence between German longsword and English? I dont think english lognsword is as well doccumented or preserved as german.

You're correct that English longsword practices are not as well documented, and so they aren't nearly as widely practiced currently as the German or Italian systems. I haven't looked in to the available material to know what the differences were in the English approach to the weapon.

 

[jayoliver00]

I think it's less of a matter of being in shape and more a matter of correct body mechanics for generating power. If you don't train people to use their full body for power generation and the rules allow you to score with simple arm power, then a lot of people are going to end up playing boffer tag. I suspect a lot of the people who consistently land solid shots are those with prior experience in other systems.

Those guys are usually both boffer tag and do train real techniques. They're just exploiting the boffer tag rules to win the tournaments. And if those boffer tag attacks are done with a real sword or even a machete, they're still going to cut to even kill.

Yeah, pole arms can generate a lot of power. It's actually kind of a limiting factor in how historically accurate we can make pole arm sparring, even with padded/rubber heads and protective equipment. Sometimes on the battlefield even a knight in full plate armor could be knocked down, concussed, or injured by a full power swing from a pole arm. I think the best we can do is probably mix up various levels of sparring intensity according to the level of protective gear and padding on the practice weapon, and then do kata practice and pell work for the hardest hitting techniques.

Dagorhir spears are foam padded, connected to a flag pole staff. You can go full power pretty much. I've seen a few people cry but it's like a medium to hard teep to the body.

Yeah, some FMA groups have this same issue where they train with super light rattan sticks. Likewise modern kendo shinai are much lighter and faster than the swords they are supposed to be emulating. Even in HEMA, we have a tendency to compete with swords which are on the lighter end of the historical spectrum. (They're still within the boundaries of historical accuracy, but on the lower end. If we went with sparring weapons which matched the heaviest historical examples of that type, it would be harder to maintain safety without also requiring heavier protective gear.)

Speaking of Dog Bros., is that their requirement, to use lighter rattan sticks? Because of those videos, I've noticed that the MMA striking that's allowed, causes more damage than those light sticks. I guess if I really wanted to win, I would drop the sticks when inside & resort to MMA striking or subs.

Oh cool, you can do takedowns, just not throws where you pick people up and slam them? Very nice.

Despite having a strong grappling background, it's taken me about 6 months to get to the point where I've started integrating my grappling into my sword sparring. I knew what to do theoretically, but it took a while to make the mental switch while going live at speed. I'm still feeling out the necessary adjustments and highest percentage techniques when grappling with swords, but so far I've had success with armlocks, takedowns, and just wrapping the opponent's arms so I can stab them with my sword. Next I need to start carrying a training dagger in my belt for stabbing a downed or entangled opponent. (That's not kosher in most tournaments, but there's nothing stopping us from including it in our club sparring.)

This is a major advantage of LARP over HEMA - the expense. Our club has loaner gear for newcomers and most people gradually purchase their full kit bit by bit. I just did some pricing and you could probably assemble the minimum necessary protective gear and steel sword for tournament longsword competition for about $800. I was spending my stimulus check money, got everything at once and went a bit over $1000. You could go cheaper if you are just interested in technique practice and light sparring in your local club, but even then it would probably run a few hundred dollars. (Synthetic swords are about half the price of steel swords, but I don't like them much, at least for the system I'm practicing.)

What's crazy is that I've spent at least $800 on my LARP weapons, gear & clothing. My 8ft spear was $100, the 6ft glaive $80, shield $60, $40, etc.

But reading your posts & looking up HEMA videos to prove my arguments, have actually inspired me to take it more seriously in terms of training with HEMA techs now. Believe it or not, when I first started, the experienced LARPERS were trying to get me to follow their teachings for using correct stances, guards, attacks, defense, etc. which were just like these HEMA training videos. I just thought it was too nerdy for me and just used my agility, speed, reflex, etc. as a fighter instead....which I think, turned me into one of these Boffer Taggers....which are called, Stick Jocks in Dagorhir.

 

[Tony Dismukes]

Dagorhir spears are foam padded, connected to a flag pole staff. You can go full power pretty much. I've seen a few people cry but it's like a medium to hard teep to the body.

Thrusts to the head are where the real danger comes in with spears. Even so, I think those can be trained safely with proper padding and safety equipment, because you can use correct spear technique and just dial back the intensity a bit. However there are certain techniques for polearms and greatswords where dialing back the intensity to a safe level ends up fundamentally changing the dynamics of how the weapon works.

Speaking of Dog Bros., is that their requirement, to use lighter rattan sticks? Because of those videos, I've noticed that the MMA striking that's allowed, causes more damage than those light sticks. I guess if I really wanted to win, I would drop the sticks when inside & resort to MMA striking or subs.

Actually the Dog Brothers traditionally favored heavier sticks in order to generate credible knockout power that opponents couldn’t just charge through. I haven’t personally attended a DB gathering, so I couldn’t tell you what the current typical usage is. @Blindside could tell you more.

 

[Tony Dismukes]

But reading your posts & looking up HEMA videos to prove my arguments, have actually inspired me to take it more seriously in terms of training with HEMA techs now

Let me know if you would like any recommendations for YouTube channels to check out. There is a considerable variance in the quality of what is out there.

 

[lklawson]

wernt judical duels to actual maiming or death common for the german states at the time?

I cant remmeber but i swear somone wrote a tretise on, or included several forms of judical duel in it, it could have been Meyer.

Talhoffer.

Now i do have a question, whats the diffrence between German longsword and English? I dont think english lognsword is as well doccumented or preserved as german.

From what we can tell they're probably was little to no difference between them. Training methodologies and names may have been different but techniques were likely much the same.

Peace favor your sword (mobile)

 

[Deleted member 39746]

From what we can tell they're probably was little to no difference between them. Training methodologies and names may have been different but techniques were likely much the same.

I cant think fo why it wouldnt be, wasnt the main diffrence in all the longswords mainly that? Its not like one of the bigger ethnic groups of england was germans or anything.

its just some persons wording i saw on it said something along the lines of they took prieorty to avoding and counter attacking or something, been a while since i read it and cant remmeber what it was.

 

[Blindside]

Actually the Dog Brothers traditionally favored heavier sticks in order to generate credible knockout power that opponents couldn’t just charge through. I haven’t personally attended a DB gathering, so I couldn’t tell you what the current typical usage is. @Blindside could tell you more.

I would say "typical" is a 31"x1" stick that at a decent density is probably 10 ounces, in comparison to a 28" x 1" stick that is probably 7 or 8 ounces. But there are fighters who will use larger like 31"x 1 1/4." At 10 ounces I can get a TKO through a mask with a good lateral shot to the temple, but it isn't easy. The krabi krabong fighters run 36" sticks of 1 inch or greater diameter and those certainly hit harder. I ran into one kali guy using those 36" sticks when I had 31" inch sticks. I was confused for a bit why I was get hit at largo when I thought I was safe.

And a decent kick or punch more than equals the impact of these sticks.

But then the staff fights, yikes those are another level.

 

[lklawson]

I cant think fo why it wouldnt be, wasnt the main diffrence in all the longswords mainly that? Its not like one of the bigger ethnic groups of england was germans or anything.

its just some persons wording i saw on it said something along the lines of they took prieorty to avoding and counter attacking or something, been a while since i read it and cant remmeber what it was.

There is a period "treatise" on English use of longsword. But it is somewhat, ummm, sparse.

Peace favor your sword (mobile)

 

[jayoliver00]

Thrusts to the head are where the real danger comes in with spears. Even so, I think those can be trained safely with proper padding and safety equipment, because you can use correct spear technique and just dial back the intensity a bit. However there are certain techniques for polearms and greatswords where dialing back the intensity to a safe level ends up fundamentally changing the dynamics of how the weapon works.

I don't see spear thrusts to the head being the most dangerous as I can slip those a lot easier than the ones going to my body. I would be just as dead either way if the spear was real & going through my body. Maybe I wouldn't die as fast I doubt there would be any fight left; the 2nd spear thrust is probably coming w/i 1-2 seconds to finish.

Case in point, I just had a battle yesterday with this guy who's in great shape as a Personal Trainer, 200+ lbs of muscles & probably one the best Dag fighters in the country, if not the best. He kills me about 99/100 exchanges with his spear when I go up vs. him with my shield & sword. I usually go back vs. him consecutively 10-20 times b/c it's challenging & I respect his skills. His thrust are powerful, fast & precise. He does a move where he swats my shield out of the way then stabs me in the torso; in a "J" movement. I own the exact $100 spear that he does & I don't have the strength to do what he does; even when my shoulders & elbows weren't suffering from tendonitis from overtraining MMA & being much older than him.

But I'm sure I can slip those spear shots to the head while I charge in with my shield a lot easier than much faster flurries of punches from much closer range during sparring in Boxing. He can also go for my legs, but he seems to want to hurt my body with those shots b/c I keep coming back for more & it intimidates him. He's scared poop-less of me getting a hold of him though and have screamed "head", when he failed that 1 time that I got hold of him; b/c he knew he was going to get some air time.