Value of upper level forms?

[Leam_Hall]

I like doing forms, the habit reminds me of success and the familiar is fun. In the past several years I've begun to focus on self-defense and am no longer sure how much value traditional forms have in that context. If you're beginning, then doing forms is a great way to learn and integrate the body mechanics. If you're a senior student or black belt, the same forms can be done even better; relaxing and breathing, then economical movement with even greater force. But from a martial value, a lot of techniques aren't really useful.

Besides body mechanics and exercise, how can forms build self-defense skills?

 

[skribs]

Personally, I don't think they can. And that's okay.

I find them to be therapeutic, both physically and mentally. But I also think there's a diminishing returns, where you're just memorizing a new order of stuff instead of learning new things.

 

[isshinryuronin]

If you're beginning, then doing forms is a great way to learn and integrate the body mechanics. If you're a senior student or black belt, the same forms can be done even better; relaxing and breathing, then economical movement with even greater force.

You've well described the general benefits of kata which will improve whatever self-defense techniques you do.

But from a martial value, a lot of techniques aren't really useful.

Now, talking about specific techniques and movements, their usefulness depends on understanding the bunkai/ function/application. Many/most of the combos in traditional kata (Okinawan, and by extension Japanese and Korean) are grab releases with counters and takedowns. Whether these have been retained over the past century by the style is another matter. Competition and exercise emphasis have minimized the importance/effectiveness of application.

The great majority of kata moves do have martial value, IF you view kata martially, with an offensive and aggressive (and creative) mindset. Viewing kata as an exercise or a traditional "dance" will cause a bias in the way you interpret it. While kata is taught in a particular pattern and with each move travelling in a prescribed fashion, it is NOT meant to be actually restricted to these limitations. (This is the real secret of kata.)

Stepping on an angle other than what is taught, knowing many moves that seem to be blocks are strikes, doing two consecutive moves simultaneously, varying the target a bit, and looking at a progression of moves like "abc-de-figh" as "abcdef-gh" instead can sometimes entirely change the meaning of the movement series. These things open new avenues of effective application. This is how kata was originally designed - as a template with much built-in flexibility to be explored.

Thousands of repetitive basic drills, two-man drills, heavy bag work, and sparring are essential in developing karate martial skills. But kata, with both its general and specific attributes, can be a valuable martial resource if one has the knowledge and understanding to utilize it to its full potential.

 

[wab25]

Once you pass your basic math class (add, subtract, multiply and divide), why do I need to go to the higher level math classes, like algebra, calculus, trigonometry, linear algebra??? They are all just doing addition, subtraction and division, just in different patterns. Why learn new patterns and new uses? You already know addition, subtraction, multiplication and division, memorizing more patterns for using those tools seems pretty useless.....

Technically, all you really need to learn is addition.... after all, that is the only math operation a computer can do.....

 

[Prince_Alarming]

In all seriousness, I think the great strength of the kata as a training tool is that they encourage you to do things that wouldn't have occurred to you personally. Most other martial arts disciplines involve a certain amount of individualism in applying their principles, sure, but the kata do offer a classical education in principles of movement, offence and defence, that it would be difficult or impossible to acquire just by playing with weapons until one of you cries uncle.

 

[Prince_Alarming]

I feel compelled to admit at this point that I have never actually cried 'uncle' in a martial arts class. Apart from when I was sparring with my uncle.

 

[JowGaWolf]

In the past several years I've begun to focus on self-defense and am no longer sure how much value traditional forms have in that context.

Now your "real martial arts training begins" For most systems the forms aren't going to be fully understood until you learn application. When I say application, I'm not talking about application drill. I'm talking about sparring and learning how to apply the technique to someone outside your system. Forms are born from application. Once you learn application then the form will make sense.

 

[JowGaWolf]

But from a martial value, a lot of techniques aren't really useful.

I hope you stay with us for 2 years or more just so I can see you change this perspective.

 

[Leam_Hall]

Once you pass your basic math class (add, subtract, multiply and divide), why do I need to go to the higher level math classes, like algebra, calculus, trigonometry, linear algebra??? They are all just doing addition, subtraction and division, just in different patterns. Why learn new patterns and new uses? You already know addition, subtraction, multiplication and division, memorizing more patterns for using those tools seems pretty useless.....

Technically, all you really need to learn is addition.... after all, that is the only math operation a computer can do.....

My thought exactly. You can apply higher level math coursework to new and different problems, but a deep horse stance shuto left and high outer block right isn't likely to have any actual martial application. Lower "level" forms/kata teach application and efficiency.

Like @skribs said, they can have therapeutic value. And really, if you like doing forms there's nothing at all wrong with that. My concern is that we pay attention to what we can perceive and measure, and being able to judge a form is a lot easier than testing someone's self-defense capability in uneven ground with hazards, multiple opponents, and unknown threat levels.

 

[Leam_Hall]

I hope you stay with us for 2 years or more just so I can see you change this perspective.

I'm enjoying learning from you all and I really enjoy the wide variety of perspectives and experiences. I got my first black belt in 1990 (in a form based TMA) and am finding my current path a fun exploration.

 

[Leam_Hall]

My thought exactly. You can apply higher level math coursework to new and different problems, but a deep horse stance shuto left and high outer block right isn't likely to have any actual martial application. Lower "level" forms/kata teach application and efficiency.

Like @skribs said, they can have therapeutic value. And really, if you like doing forms there's nothing at all wrong with that. My concern is that we pay attention to what we can perceive and measure, and being able to judge a form is a lot easier than testing someone's self-defense capability in uneven ground with hazards, multiple opponents, and unknown threat levels.

Also, to be clear, I'm not saying I have the ultimate answer. Heck, I'm still fuzzy on the question. I practice Sil Lim Tao from Wing Chun because it teaches me in-fighting principles I do not yet have. However, I think there's a limit to how far I will go with that.

 

[wab25]

a deep horse stance shuto left and high outer block right isn't likely to have any actual martial application.

That is an interesting take.....

Even if we disagree on the bunkai applications.... certainly the skills, principles, ideas, tactics and strategies apply in martial application.

One of the ways to know if you are getting the right things out of your upper level kata work, is that it should start changing how you do your lower level katas, making them more efficient, more applicable, more dynamic..... Maybe it does not change the movements or hand positions... but certainly things like intent, focus, emphasis and commitment should change, and the available bunkai applications for the lower level kata, should increase in number. You should start to see that the lower level katas where preparing you for more advanced things... once you learn where those lower level kata are taking you, you will get more out of them, if you keep the end in mind.

Look at the first form you learn in an art, as the foundation. This form holds the most important things for this art. All the rest of the forms you learn, are then just digging deeper into what is already there in that first form. Your first form should improve, as should your understanding of what that first form is teaching you. While you may never find the exact poses, with corresponding hand positions and timings in combat.... you should certainly be able to find and apply the core principles and ideas taught from that first form effectively.

My concern is that we pay attention to what we can perceive and measure

What we can perceive and measure should change, as we gain understanding of what the kata are teaching. My concern is that we memorize a line dance, think we now understand the kata and then pass judgment on the usefulness of the kata, that we just memorized, without ever uncovering what it was trying to teach and or prepare you for.

 

[Leam_Hall]

That is an interesting take.....

Even if we disagree on the bunkai applications.... certainly the skills, principles, ideas, tactics and strategies apply in martial application.

... lots of other good stuff snipped

To a degree, yes. However, @skribs said it better than I did: diminishing returns.

We all have X amount of time; 24-ish hours per day spent in sleep, family, work, school, etc. If the basic form(s) teach you 80% (Pareto principle) of the skills, ideas, etc, then you're ahead of the game.

Now the question becomes, what do you spend the rest you time on? Remember, time is limited for all of us and we have a wide range of commitments. You can spend even more hours on stances and techniques that only work in the form, and that's fine if that's your goal. Or you can take the 80% technique and focus on learning distance, timing, accuracy, delivering a strike, taking a hit, being thrown to the ground, local laws on use of force, threat recognition and assessment, situational awareness, in-fighting, grappling, and first aid.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

how can forms build self-defense skills?

Form teaches you how to create an opening and how to take advantage on that opening.

For example,

1. You use right hook punch to force your opponent to dodge under your arm
2. You change your right hook punch into a right back fist to hit on top of his head.
3. When your opponent raises his arm to block your right back fist, you use left uppercut his chin.
4. When your opponent leans back to dodge your uppercut, your right hammer fist hit on top of his head.
5. You then straight punch at his chest.

This hook, back fist, uppercut, hammer fist, straight punch 5 punches combo include horizontal, vertical down, vertical up, straight forward. This combo also teach you punch should be 3 dimensional and not just linear.

 

[isshinryuronin]

a deep horse stance shuto left and high outer block right isn't likely to have any actual martial application.

This sounds a lot like an ending position found in seiuchin kata. But the value of a technique is not in its end position, but what is happening leading up to that position. You can't interpret a movement series from a screen shot, you need the video to understand.

 

[wab25]

You can spend even more hours on stances and techniques that only work in the form, and that's fine if that's your goal.

If the stances and techniques only work in the form, then you do not understand the stances, the techniques or even the form itself. If you do understand the stances, the techniques and the form.... then you can easily apply those outside of the form and in actual sparring.

Diminishing returns only occurs with diminished understanding. If you understand what you are doing with the kata and what is found in the kata, then the returns become greater. This happens at an exponential rate. Lets say you are learning your 10th kata. As you start to truly understand what is in that kata, it should open your mind to new things within the previous 9 kata you are ready studied. So, you learn 1 new thing, and your understanding and ability in at least 10 things increases.... thats more efficient than learning 1 thing and getting better at only 1 thing.

The first thing to understand is that learning a kata is not memorizing the sequence and being able to physically do the sequence. When you can do the sequence correctly, without much thought for the next move.... is when you are ready to start studying the kata. This is where you begin to study the kata. A lot of people get to the point where they memorized the moves and can do them in order, and think that they have now mastered that kata and are ready for the next. This gets you a set of line dances and in many places a set of impressive looking belts. But, if you are looking for a martial art.... you passed all the trees and never saw the forest.... but hey, at least you have some neat looking belts and a title.....