Forms and their true value in the martial arts
- Thread starter Hanzou
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oftheherd1
Senior Master
I agree with all you say, but I also think some forms are sort of multi-attacker defense.
Coming from a Hapkido background, and with only limited TKD experience, I tend to think just because a technique has a block, break, and throw, it may not necessarily be a form. But I wont' argue with your characterization either. It has me thinking.
Do have any links to videos of the forms you do? I'm curious to see how they compare.
KKW TKD forms above Taegeuk 3 (the first 3 forms are pretty basic) do have a lot of techniques other than blocks, punches and kicks. Things like elbow strikes, jumps, backfists, knife-hand strikes, throws, groin attacks, etc.
Edit: None of those techniques other than jumping are allowed in WTF sparring, but they are useful techniques to know, so forms can allow students to practice them.
I take it from your comment here you are referring to forms/kata. If so than I disagree that kata don't teach you how to fight. I think a big problem is that many people think that kata is meant to used as if both parties are sparring and this is how people fight. However kata was designed to teach you how to fight more as a self defense system than a competitive sport.
Historically back at the turn of the century karate kata were studied for many years and often a student only learned a few kata (compared to the amount a student learns today) and the student learned applications along with the kata. As karate moved to Japan it's training and methodology (or focus) shifted as it was introduced into universities and large groups of students were trained. Stances were elongated, kihon (line or basic training) was emphasized, and in the mid 30's-40's sparring became more prevalent. Also during this time kata was collected and added to the systems for preservation purposes (Shotokan did this), which led to more kata being studied in a shorter amount of time so application study was neglected. With the stances becoming lower and longer and the styles more pronounced (stylized form over function)(along with styles splitting such as Wado from Shotokan etc. etc.) and the competition sparring between karate clubs, application training took on more of a sparring mode as in two people in mutual combative engagement.
Out of this comes TKD and the older Shotokan based arts such as Tang So Do which used the Shotokan patterns (Pinan and Heian) and then the forms developed by Gen Choi in the 60's Blue Cottage forms (Chungi patterns). The first few patterns of the Chungi forms have sections of the forms that were lifted right from the Pinan/Heian kata (Do-San and Won Hyo) and then as they get higher they tend to have more sparring type sequences such as the two round house kicks in Hwa Rang, or the side kick turn back kick in Chug- Mu. However since the Korean masters studied with the Japanese instructors while in Japan in the 30's/40's they imported the same sparring type applications along with the deeper stances etc. etc. since the root of this type of TKD is Japanese karate as it was taught during that time frame.
Karate was designed as a method of self defense, kata were designed at first to teach combative responses to attacks not really sparring strategies against a dueling type of engagement.
I've often questioned the usefulness of forms, but for none of the reasons described above.
This I find to be entirely false. The problem here is that traditional martial arts place a lot of emphasis on technique. I'm doing Taekwondo, which has very difficult kicks that we often practice just against the air. We also spar and practice on targets, but practicing the technique in the air gives us the muscle memory on how to do that technique correctly. Sparring is what helps us use that technique on reflex.
My instructor told us we practice kicking in the air to help us maintain balance when we miss the target.
While there isn't impact, you can still tell the people who put power into their techniques from those who don't. Proper stances during the form will help with balance, leg flexibility, and maybe a little with leg strength. Trust me on this: if you're doing a form properly (using proper technique, putting your power into it) you will be winded and sweating real fast. I dread when I have to do all of my forms in class instead of just the one or two we're working on, because by the time I get to the forms I'm working on I'm winded already.
I agree with you here, I can always tell when a student is just going through the motions or if they have put their heart into their kata. The kata will have snappier kicks and punches, more focus, harder blocks.
At my school, only the simplest forms involve generic copies of each other, and that's because they are more to teach you how to do forms than anything else. The intermediate forms start to have deviation here and there, and the more advanced you go the more complex the forms become. Training multiple forms also gives you different sets of techniques. Part of the reason katas were created in Karate was to have a small set of forms that teach you all of the techniques of Karate, meaning all of the techniques had to be included in the forms (otherwise they wouldn't serve their purpose). While I agree sparring and freestyle practice are better at teaching creative thinking, I would not say that anything but the most basic forms are "repeating the same move over and over again."
​In the style of TKD that I practice and teach the first kata are repetitious in technique and methodology behind the pattern Chungi = a + sign, Dan Gun, Won Hyo = an H or an I (depending upon your view point). However after Yul Gok there is more variety and more shifting in stances like from a back stance into a front stance (without a step forward like in the earlier patterns) or a front stance shift into horse stance, then advancing side kick landing in a front stance again.
Now, where I question the usefulness of forms, specifically in Tae Kwon Do, is how different forms are from sparring. The stance is different (deep stances in forms, narrow stance in sparring). The hand position is different (hands tucked at your side in forms, hands in a guard position - either similar to a boxer or held at your sides - in sparring). There is a much larger focus on hand techniques in forms, and sparring is mostly kicks (could be 100% or it could be 60%, depending on how much the fighter likes to use his/her hands). Forms largely teach blocks while sparring teaches avoidance and counter-attack. The footwork is different (forms are mainly steps, sparring is a lot of bouncing and skipping).
As I said in my previous post I don't believe that the kata were originally developed with sparring in mind. In fact the stances of the Okinawan styles of karate back in the 1920's were mostly upright like the modern TKD forms. Karate changed when it went to Japan and was taught in the universities, and sparring drove a lot of changes. Even the roundhouse kick which is so prevalent in sparring today wasn't introduced to Shotokan until the mid/late 1940's after I believe Nakayama's tour of duty in Manchuria/China.
​In regards to hand position on the hips, I teach it as a grab and pull to pull the aggressor off balance and possibly into a technique. This is taught in karate as the "return hand". However it aids in understanding moves within the forms. In Jun Gwen there is a knife hand block in back stance and then shift into forward stance and reverse elbow strike. In this the lead hand "blocks" and then pulls to the front hip while the rear hand upper elbow strikes as yu shift into a front stance. I teach one application as a person punches or reaches out towards you and you block on the inside of the arm, grab the sleeve of the gi as you shift into the front stance pull the person's arm to your hip as you reverse upwards elbow strike to the person's chin. The pulling action of the return hand pulls the person (jerks him really) downward right into the elbow strike. If you shift right you can knock the inside of the aggressor's leg towards the outside destroying his base as you pull him into the strike.
However, one thing I've realized is that our self defense drills support deeper stances and use more traditional techniques, and seem very effective (granted, I haven't tested this theory). I think it would be more effective than trying to trade blows with an opponent. These techniques are very aggressive and tend to go for target areas that are not allowed in sparring (neck, face, groin, knees, etc). Forms give us better practice at the stance and technique than 1-step sparring drills, but the 1-step drills help us with timing and accuracy. Sparring helps us work on our timing, even if everything is different about how we do it. I think it all works together to give us a nice variety of training that would combine together in an actual self defense situation.
​I beleive you are right here about the deeper stances. For instance the common upward block performed in a forward stance: I teach this as a defense against someone either grabbing the lapel placing their hand on me as if to push. Anyway grab the hand and step into as the same side foot goes back (if he attacks with the right hand step back with left) as you step in with the right foot and downward block on top of the elbow joint to bend his head down and to collapse his arm. Then upward block/forearm strike the side of his head as it is pulled downward. By dropping back and slamming your forearm down on the arm (this is the chamber position for the block) actually helps pull the aggressor into the forearm strike/upper block while upsetting the possible incoming punch with his left hand.
Similarly is the question of Taekwondo Gymnastics; those flashy kicks and flips that have no business outside of a demonstration or an action movie. The 540 kicks and 720 kicks, or the flashier version of actually effective kicks. On the one hand, if you can do a good 720 kick, it probably means you can do a good tornado kick. On the other hand, working on the tornado kick itself is probably going to lead to more direct results on that kick. While it's possible to debate if these flashy moves are worthwhile, I say "they're fun to try" and ignore the question of their usefulness
Now in my 50's I don't even think they are fun to try. However these kicks were a way for TKD to distance itself from the Japanese karate roots and to help establish TKD as a martial art unto itself. Although at first it was promoted as a way to knock horseman down off of their mounts.
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TL;DR version: I think forms have some benefits, even though sometimes I tend to think I'd rather be sparring or kicking a bag.
With all of the information out today; on You Tube, ebooks, the internet, DVDs etc. etc. on bunkai or applications of kata and forms I don't get why people believe that forms are useless.
Aside from all of the discussion about kata being for fighting etc. etc. Kata are also a way for aging martial artists to continue to grow in understanding of their system(s) principles and principles of other martial arts as well. This I can do when I am by myself at work, when I'm teaching a student and get new insight, or when I'm staying after class to work on some kata. The other day while I was at my in laws, I was working on a Jo kata that I will start to teach my advanced students after the new year. While practicing I got to thinking of applying a sequence in the kata to empty hand, so I put down the Jo and worked it out in my mind what was going on in the kata and applied it to empty hand. However I was later (yesterday or the day before) reading a post on MT about something and Aikido and how techniques work better when you think of holding a sword in your hand, and that got me thinking to the final part of the sequence I was working on. It helped me to think of a throw that might work there; now I had been thinking about a throw and I almost had it but.... that post spurred the thought process even more. I get things like this from studying kata, basics, other arts etc. etc. but not when I'm just hitting a heavy bag. I'm looking forward to working this out tonight when I teach my arnis class.
I completely agree with your comments. One aspect I don't hear mentioned as much; and this may be because it is a less practical aspect, is the sheer beauty that a well performed kata exemplifies.
As an example: the Kata Bassai as performed by Bill Odom (Norfolk Martial Arts Academy). Note that there are no gymnastics, simply precision, timing and individual interpretation.
http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=hiUAHKjW4Ng&desktop_uri=/watch?v=hiUAHKjW4Ng
That is the way kata was taught where I trained, and part of why I came to love that aspect of the art so much.
Another aspect of kata that I believe is often missed is that it can be a great learning visual learning tool when it is done correctly and the students have a base from which to learn from. When kata is done as a gymnastic routine for tournament competition while it is great for physical skill development, if it has no real grounding in martial application then you only learn the physical side, and I'm not referring to these types of kata for the following examples. No I'm referring to the boring traditional kata that don't have flying kicks, nor standing on one leg and spin around in a circle round house kicks, no flips or butterfly kicks, nor squatting into splits and punching while doing an upward block etc. etc. I'm just referring to you know the old boring ones.
In my school I teach TKD as the base art and we work on kata, and kata (basics) application is taught as well from generally the intermediate level on. One day a friend of mine who has studied an Okinawan system came over to visit my classes. This guy's kata puts mine to shame, he is really good, so I had him demonstrate different kata for my students so they could see the foundation of where our form of TKD came from (Okinawa, Japan, to Korea). At the end he was engaging my students in Q & A and he asked something like what did they see, and a little 9 yr. old blue belt raises her hand and says something to the extent of I see that you are moving into a person then withdrawing referring to his footwork, others mentioned his open hand strikes and grabs etc. etc. He did the form so well that they could see application of what he was doing and they were all 9-10 yr old intermediate belts. My memory is fuzzy now as to exact words but both my friend and I were shocked at the depth of understanding that these kids had in seeing him do the kata; well he was shocked I was proud of them.
Another area that is over looked and this gets into cross training is that the forms can be an extremely effective learning tool when cross training. I teach both Modern Arnis and TKD as two separate arts, however at Brown belt level in my TKD program the self defense training starts to have a big bleed over from the Modern Arnis, and my empty hand in my beginners levels in the Modern Arnis has a heavy influence from my TKD program. Anyway in Modern Arnis we have Anyos (kata/forms) that were influence by Japanese karate and sometimes I will, when I have a student that enjoys kata training, I show them a Modern Arnis Anyo to supplement their TKD training. I have one student who is now training in both programs, he started as a brown belt in TKD and has now switched to the Arnis (in addition to the TKD), he will be testing for his Green belt in Modern Arnis next Saturday. Anyway in class he will all of the sudden see connections between the systems "Mr. Lynn is this the same as.....?" or "Can I do this take down for my one step?" "Mr Lynn that's in Anyo Isa" referring to something I'm showing in the TKD class etc. etc. Training in both systems as well as learning katas in both systems (Weapons and empty hand forms in both systems) gives him a much wider base to draw from, this is pretty good for a 13 yr. old.
The common thread here is that I teach applications behind the moves making the art and the kata more real.
In my school I teach TKD as the base art and we work on kata, and kata (basics) application is taught as well from generally the intermediate level on. One day a friend of mine who has studied an Okinawan system came over to visit my classes. This guy's kata puts mine to shame, he is really good, so I had him demonstrate different kata for my students so they could see the foundation of where our form of TKD came from (Okinawa, Japan, to Korea). At the end he was engaging my students in Q & A and he asked something like what did they see, and a little 9 yr. old blue belt raises her hand and says something to the extent of I see that you are moving into a person then withdrawing referring to his footwork, others mentioned his open hand strikes and grabs etc. etc. He did the form so well that they could see application of what he was doing and they were all 9-10 yr old intermediate belts. My memory is fuzzy now as to exact words but both my friend and I were shocked at the depth of understanding that these kids had in seeing him do the kata; well he was shocked I was proud of them.
Another area that is over looked and this gets into cross training is that the forms can be an extremely effective learning tool when cross training. I teach both Modern Arnis and TKD as two separate arts, however at Brown belt level in my TKD program the self defense training starts to have a big bleed over from the Modern Arnis, and my empty hand in my beginners levels in the Modern Arnis has a heavy influence from my TKD program. Anyway in Modern Arnis we have Anyos (kata/forms) that were influence by Japanese karate and sometimes I will, when I have a student that enjoys kata training, I show them a Modern Arnis Anyo to supplement their TKD training. I have one student who is now training in both programs, he started as a brown belt in TKD and has now switched to the Arnis (in addition to the TKD), he will be testing for his Green belt in Modern Arnis next Saturday. Anyway in class he will all of the sudden see connections between the systems "Mr. Lynn is this the same as.....?" or "Can I do this take down for my one step?" "Mr Lynn that's in Anyo Isa" referring to something I'm showing in the TKD class etc. etc. Training in both systems as well as learning katas in both systems (Weapons and empty hand forms in both systems) gives him a much wider base to draw from, this is pretty good for a 13 yr. old.
The common thread here is that I teach applications behind the moves making the art and the kata more real.
dancingalone
Grandmaster
These are my two favorite karate forms. The first is from Goju-ryu, the second is found in many systems with various adaptations to suit. Keep in mind that these videos are performed at demo speed. Actual practice of the kata can look considerably different as do the application partner work.
[video=youtube;tpoJ4-6L1Wc]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tpoJ4-6L1Wc[/video]
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Chris Parker
Grandmaster
Bluntly, Matt Thornton doesn't have a clue what he's talking about. His comments only really apply to the very first level of learning a kata, which is fairly removed from the training of it. Additionally, he's missed entirely the point of form training, and his comments are, frankly, inaccurate. Let's take it bit by bit.
He begins by talking about "muscle memory", as that, he says, is the reason for form training in the first place. Well, kinda... but not the way he's suggesting. Actually, what you're doing is creating neural pathways, which is a bit different. And that's a big part of where he goes off the track... form training is at least equal parts physical and mental (I'd suggest that it's probably more mental than physical, actually). And it's this mental side of the training that gives it it's real strength.
What form training, or kata training is really all about is training tactics and strategic application of the mechanical methods (techniques) of the art itself. In other words, when you say "what's the point of learning them if they don't teach you to fight?", you're simply wrong. That's exactly what they do. What they don't do is teach you this throw, or this kick, or this block... they teach you how to use this throw, this kick, and this block, in context with other actions, with set-ups, transitions, and so on.
Next, Matt talks about there being no "timing" in form training. Well, bluntly, there is. He simply can't relate to it without someone in front of him to help him work on it (here's some news for him, actual Japanese kata is most often paired... there is someone there. It's the Chinese forms that are solo, as well as those derived from them, such as the karate/Okinawan ones, and the Korean). But, when taught properly, you learn the timing of each action as well. Again, it's an integral part of the reason you train forms... it's a way to ensure you get the timing the way you're meant to get it, without the random reliance on someone else providing you with the right stimulus. In other words, form training is done to make sure you get the skills faster, and more reliably than you do in free training (sparring etc).
No impact... well, again, he's missed out on realizing that kata (Japanese... well, it is a Japanese word, after all) is paired... there's just as much impact as any other paired training methodology. But, even when dealing with solo forms, the impact isn't the point... that's trained separately. Expecting one training device to do everything (especially when it's one of a number employed, not the only method) is simply a deep lack of understanding, or even willingness to understand, other arts methods.
His points about varying up your shadowboxing, and likening it to a boxing coach suggesting that your opponent's will become "wise" to the routine is really completely besides the point for non-sporting arts. You don't face the same opponent for round after round, nor do you keep coming up against the same person. More to the point, you're not working on repeating the same action, you're working on instilling the tactical approach... which can come out in a number of ways, and all be correct. So, really, Matt's context is way out here as well.
This, and the following, are from the "Sport and TMA... Again" thread, to avoid even more unnecessary thread drift there.
I'd suggest you re-read my post in your thread on "Need some information...", but I'll address things here as well.
What you're looking at (Kata Maki, final kata in the Shoden Gata of Koto Ryu Koppojutsu) is a demonstration form of it, not a training form. It's broken down into the sequence in order for all the steps to be seen, and is the "learning the parts" section I referred to in my post in your other thread. Once you've done that, you move onto training it against a more realistic form of the attack.. where the punches are retracted, as they would be, as well as other aspects. With this particular kata, you should be working on the timing and tai sabaki (body movement) which enables you to "catch" the second punch by wrapping your arm over it just before it reaches full extension (you do that, not with super-fast reflexes, but by dictating the attack coming towards you with your first movement away... but that's more for a teacher to explain to you). Ideally, you'll actually get the arm as it's then retracting, which gives you a Musha Dori armlock (bending and lifting the elbow, which is what bends the attacker backwards, allowing the takedown), rather than a straight arm-bar (Muso Dori), which happens when you don't get the timing right.
Of course, it's not uncommon to see the old "arm sticking out" thing... and it's a case of people not moving past the "learn the basic mechanics" section. There are other ideas, though... But, importantly, as I said in the other thread, kata should be done as if a real fight. Both partners should be intending to get away safely in order to continue to attack/defend (depending on the role and kata). An example is something I was taking my guys through last night... it was a kata called Kasa Harai, from a line of Shinden Fudo Ryu. In this kata, you and the opponent hold each other in a kind of clinch, and you step back, pulling them forwards. The response from the opponent is to then try to move back again, which opens up one of their arms to an attack... which is to catch it with both arms in an armbar. From there, you attack the opponent's legs, change your grip, and take them down. When we first went through it, it was very much a to b to c to d... but, once that's understood, the pressure is upped. The timing works by seizing their arm as they try to escape/resist against your initial pull... if you leave it too late, you can't catch the arm, as they can defend it. Throughout, the attacker should be aiming to stay in balance, as you (the defender) attack their legs to disrupt it, and so on. A few minutes of that, and there was a fair amount of sweat in the room. That's the way kata should be trained. The "demonstration" version is not the "training" version, even though the actions are the same.
Er... no. Japanese kata. Resistance is part of the methods. In fact, the kata often don't work unless there is realistic response (which is not always, or even often, actually resistance). The video is actually a good example of it not working without the requisite responsiveness and timing, as he's ending up with the "lesser" lock (Muso Dori).
No, not really slow speed work... sure, it's a bit slower, but the real thing is that it's a staccato "teaching", or "demonstration" version, so your second half is spot on.
Now, you know that just confuses people, yeah?
It's more that the timing is managed, rather than just trying to think of it as a seamless movement... I mean, it is a single action, but the timing (waiting the until the correct moment) is the crucial aspect.
Of course, it's not just Ninjutsu... it's pretty much Japanese martial arts.
Hmm, don't think I'd agree with that... they were solo exercises brought from China to Okinawa, and remained solo when taken to Japan. I don't think they were ever paired, mainly due to the way martial arts developed in China as opposed to Japan.
Yep, that's about it!
Yeah... don't quite know what to call what you Johnny-come-latelies do.... trying to steal our terminology.... ha!
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ballen0351
Sr. Grandmaster
Whos terminology? Australians?
skribs
Grandmaster
Dancingalone, those katas are much more complex than the ones I'm used to. Then again, I'm doing the beginner's forms. Looking at the difference between Karate and TKD, though, I can see how Karate's katas are more geared towards training than TKD's. However, after reading everything in this thread, I think they're more helpful than I did coming into this thread.
dancingalone
Grandmaster
To be fair, these are dan level kata. Most people I know learn them around 3rd dan. But certainly their relative complexity supports the understanding that the karate-ka of old only practiced a small number of forms since each one was a fighting style in of itself.
Ouch! ​What was that for?
I think it is somewhat telling that some old style Korean kata practitioners are beginning to introduce 2 person kata.
I didn't have time to watch this kata when you posted it. It looks very interesting and beautifully performed.
I don't know what kata you do in the early stages of TKD and obviously the names are different to the Japanese names, but if those early kata are based on Shotokan's early kata, they were designed to teach basics and are for training. The kata dancingalone posted are indeed more complex. They are for fighting.
Kururunfa is one of my favourites too. For us it is closer to 5th dan. Then, if you are going to understand its content .... '?' dan.
:asian:
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dancingalone
Grandmaster
That's an interesting development. Any group in particular? Are they new kata or did they adopt some of kumite sets from Shorin-ryu?
Specifically GM James K Roberts Jr. I had a discussion about it with him about a year ago. He has been adding the opponent side of current kata in his style of Moo Duk Kwan.
dancingalone
Grandmaster
Current kata... So, are the turns and such removed so 2 people can run the form continuously? You'd think the embusen would have to be altered significantly. This is what happens in the bunkai kumite sets I referenced above.
ballen0351
Sr. Grandmaster
Ouch! ​What was that for?
Just playing
I haven't seen them performed. But they are based on bunkai. I assume that at least in theory the moves could vary with particular concepts of what a particular move represents
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